Did someone say 'pizza?' A monster?

Graig

"The monster is in the oven? WELL TAKE IT OUT!!!!!'

DanC

You cannot say that Jake lacks passion!!!

I didn't read all the posts, I just came in when I heard someone mention pizza.

It'd be pretty funny, if someone then finds a folder with like 100 of these in it.

As someone who only dabbles in vintage photos, I have a question (and please forgive my ignorance...)

How unlikely is it that others will now surface? With all of the Newspaper companies going belly-up, isn't there a decent chance that more of these will turn up? Aren't there likely more copies stashed away in the archives somewhere?

It's an epic photo, and I understand the importance... But it also seems risky to pay over $50K when we don't really know how many others exist. As an example, Ty Cobb Tobacco Tins were considered to be exceedingly rare (with less than 5 known to exist). They're still rare, but at least 3 - 4 new examples have surfaced, since that one was showered with publicity a couple of years ago.

Would it be out of the question for that to happen in this case?

+1

This kind of money and attention will flush more out into the open.

Good morning fellow lunatics. This is your captain speaking...

Great point Mark. I love the photo and have zero issue with what the final hammer will be, but whether it's worth the risk that another will pop up down the road is up to the bidders.

On an unrelated note Mark, you have a tremendous collection and you have it displayed very well. Can you tell me where you get those plastic holders for your flat stuff? They're like plate holders, stands, etc? I need a bunch and don't like what I've found so far. thanks.

A major daily newspaper I worked at in the mid 1990s had a great library of first-generation and wire photos from the turn of the century. My duties as a copy and layout editor for the Sports department had me pulling file photos on almost a daily basis. You would be shocked at the manilla folders 2, 3 and 4 inches thick dedicated to photos of Cobb, Ruth, Shoeless Joe, etc. Routinely there were multiple photos of the same pose, many in pristine condition. I spent a lot of time browsing those folders.

This was at a newspaper in the South that never had an association with Major League Baseball. I can only imagine what rests in the bowels of newspapers in big-league cities.

Wow. And ouch.

[QUOTE=Splinte1941;998492]You're a madman Jake. I'm not the tough guy, I'm the crippled old man with "moxie".

However, if you're wandering why I got excited at the thought of you meeting up with Ben at the National? I got it from your exchange with him as I cut and pasted below. Ben wasn't choosing you off, he was simply stating that many people talk a whole lot of crap on a message board, but it takes a real man to say it face to face, with no keyboards getting in the way. And I happen to feel the same exact way, as Ben will be able to confirm.

Because a couple years ago, Ben and I did have a falling out, and we said things to each other that no man had ever said to either of us before. Which, come to think of it, is probably why we were able to work our way through it and now our friendship is one of mutual respect and honesty. But my guess Jake, is you're not real familiar with those words now, are ya?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladder7

all that would be left is a few knuckleheads that think cussing someone out on the internet makes them look like a hardass, when we all know it's just another way of seeking attention.


Originally Posted by Forever Young
I love it... I doubt that dude would ever agree to meet anyone in person and talk like that. Many of us will be at the National though if I am wrong
__________________




#27 05-17-2012, 01:29 PM
Splinte1941
Jake Sullivan
member Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Young
I love it... I doubt that dude would ever agree to meet anyone in person and talk like that. Many of us will be at the National though if I am wrong

I'll be at the National and eager to meet anyone that is willing.


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#28 05-17-2012, 01:43 PM
Forever Young
Ben
Member Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The great white north.
Posts: 312



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinte1941
I'll be at the National and eager to meet anyone that is willing.

You got it..PM me when it gets closer.
__________________


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Last edited by Forever Young; 05-17-2012 at 01:44 PM.




#29 05-17-2012, 01:48 PM
Splinte1941
Jake Sullivan
member Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 110



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Young
You got it..PM me when it gets closer.

Will do.



Just want to refresh everyone's memory that the above comments ALL were provoked by Jake's classless and disgusting personal attack on fellow board member Scott Garner. If Jake would have sent along a PM to Scott he could have achieved much more than he did by acting, no make that 'playing' the school yard bully and trashing Scott for all of net54 to see for no good reason. And you wonder why you keep getting backlash?! Like I said... you are some piece of work...

I agree that it's possible that others exist, and a high-profile sale will be the quickest way to flush them out into the open if so. It never ceases to amaze me what scarce/rare items start pouring out of the closets once one sale takes place.

In this case though, the photo being a Type 1 will act as a sort of insulation since, by the time this print was produced, the wire photo process would have been in widespread use. While that doesn't guarantee that this is the only Type 1, it does increase the odds that if/when others do surface, they would be Type 3 wire photos. Even as I write that though, I do note that this photo surfaced was found in the archives of a regional paper (though it does not note which), so perhaps the smaller subscribers still weren't up to date on their technology even though the process had been around for over 15 years at that point? Regardless, my point still stands that for any given 1950's-era photo, the population of Type 3 wire photos is likely to be several times the population of Type 1 original prints of that same image. I can't help but wonder if the writer for Legendary was alluding to this when they said, "This likeness has never before been found in the form of a Type I original image." This makes me think it may have been found as a Type 3, but that is purely conjecture on my part.

Only time will tell as to whether this particular photo holds its value, but I still find the argument of "it's only a photo, I have one of another guy, so it can't be worth more than $50" to be as ludicrous as looking at a Wagner T206 and saying "it's only a baseball card, I have tons of those and used to stick them in my bike spokes so there's no way it's worth that much."

To a lesser degree, this is probably true for many collectibles (excluding one-of-a-kind items, game used, contracts, awards, etc.) - there is always the possibility of a future "find". In my opinion, what makes photos an important exception is the current Roger's acquisition program which is unlikely to end soon and specifically targets prime sources with huge numbers of vintage photos.

The '51 Mantle image for the '52 Topps card was extensively used in newspaper articles across the country from 1951-53 and to a lesser degree from '53-'55. I have several of these and the captions (or image) are approximately 50-50 between wire photos and first generation. In addition, I have had the good fortune to acquire large photo collections from former sports photographers and sports journalists (and in one case from someone who happened upon a garbage bin outside a major publishing house and simply removed hundreds of photos that had been tossed out). I can confirm what Rob D. posted that even in this modest sampling "there were multiple photos of the same pose, many in pristine condition".

My best guess is that the number of Type 1 photos of the '52 Topps image that exist is probably around 10-15. This number could increase from magazine archives (which typically used multiple prints in the editorial and reference processes). How many of these sources will be a target of acquisition is obviously unknown deceasing the likelihood that any of these will ever surface. On the other hand, as someone has already mentioned, the publicity generated from this sale would likely increase the probability of other examples coming to the market.

As some on this forum know, my primary focus is on early (1949-1951) Type 1 Mantle photos. This is one of the only vintage news service photos of Mickey that I do not have (been looking for almost 25 years now) and, if I had unlimited resources it would be mine.

Finally, I would like to raise again a question that I asked in an earlier post on this thread - Does anyone know what the highest price to date (private or public) ever paid for a baseball photo is?

Thanks,

Craig

Hey Craig,

I'm definitely no authority on this, but I think the highest figure a single unsigned vintage photograph has reached may have been the almost-$90,000 for the ginormous Addie Joss benefit game panoramic from 1911. Here's a link to Heritage's 2005 auction:

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...No=19707#Photo

I had forgotten about this one, even when the Joe Jackson Conlon photo hit its final number of $32,588 (and I think that was without the juice?).

They're definitely been a lot of other contenders for high figures, including that Horner Wagner photo from the Sotheby's auction. I feel like a LOT of the other five figure prices reached for photos have been for Conlons, be they Mastro's Ted Williams portrait or some of the shots of Gehrig's and Ruth's eye closeups. And, they're also those wonderful early 1920s Paul Thompson shots of Ruth, also from Mastro's collection, which I think ranged from 10k to 18k.

Granted, Jimmy, Ben, Lance and the others could probably chime in with better researched info...

Graig

Just a guess...
 

...and I'm sure John Rogers and others who have been looking into this have a pretty good idea of what might be out there, but it seems likely to me that the great majority of large archives of old photos have been long since consigned to the dumpster, meaning that the relatively few to have survived will produce a comparatively small enough number of truly top quality Type I prints to keep prices high in the future, especially given the increasing demand for them among collectors.

I agree. I already thought about the value if other type 1's like this one being auctioned came out. Unless a large stack of them came out I don't think it's price gets hurt. I can sort of relate it to cards. I paid a ton (relatively speaking) for the T207 Red Cross Weaver I have. When I nabbed it there were only approximately 5 T207 Red Crosses known. A couple of years ago there were approximately 5-6 more that came out. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that those new ones to the hobby didn't affect the value of the card I have...and there is a chance they even increased it's value with more awareness.

Thanks very much Graig. I had forgotten about the Addie Joss photo. I believe that the Wagner went for $25,000 and an oversized Ruth and Gehrig from Christie's auction of the Baseball Mag. archive was around $30,000. Gonna be interesting to see where the Mantle finally winds up!!!

Cheers,

Craig

PS Attached is what you asked about. Again, its an image from an auction that I won but does provide a much closer view of Mickey (muscle striations in the Popeye left forearm, '51 patch, ball big as life and Feller's facial expression ( really means business).


Hope you like!

I disagree. The mind-set of many people who work at newspapers is that not only do they help to report the news (and history), they help preserve it for future generations. Unlike baseball team front-office types who see no value in old player contracts that collectors would love to own, newspaper people realize that dumping an archive of photos is in effect throwing away history. For the most part, I would say the importance is realized, and steps are taken to try to preserve rather than destroy.

Hank,

This is a very good point and I agree. One caveat (as indicated by the apparent source of this photo) is the enormous number of smaller, regional papers that have probably not gone the digitization route and may well still have archives of hard copies - as well as the possibility of collections of local sports writers that may have been passed down to family members but are just lying around somewhere.

Having considered yours and other excellent related points recently posted, I have changed my opinion slightly and now believe that we may only ever see
one or two Type 1's of this image in comparable condition in a future public auction.

The only first-hand knowledge I have is of my hometown, Washington, DC, papers. At one time, there were four major dailies, and none of their photo archives have survived. Even the survivor, The Washington Post, has only a thin file of vintage photos remaining. The rest were purged long ago.

More food for thought: The paper I currently work at, which is one of the largest in the state, has used a digital library for photo retrieval for at least the past 15 years. Some of the hard copies of photos, which haven't been digitally archived, are still on site. The remainder are housed in an off-site facility. As far as I know, management has no plans destroy this massive photo archive.

I know that two papers I previously worked at -- one a midsize and the other a large paper -- are doing the same thing.

That really varies from one paper to the next, and nowadays more than ever, the finances of the paper can have a big effect. In many cases, I would wager that the only reason the paper still maintains an archive of decades-old photos is that they are kept in-house in a building that is already paid for in a space (basement) that is not in-demand for their day-to-day operation since they certainly aren't growing in terms space needed for their staff. It's simply easier to leave them where they are, and on the off chance that they need a photo of an old-time ballplayer to run, they don't have to pay the AP or Getty Images or whoever for it. If the paper is going under, consigning the old photo files to the dumpster (or whatever staff wants to cart them off) is still a very real possibility.

That is one of the biggest reasons that I think John Rogers has been so successful in prying these photo archives away from the various publications. Not only does he negotiate the purchase of the physical photos, but also returns to the paper a digital archive of the images so that they will still have those available for further publication. Most of the papers he has worked with see it as a win-win-win: they free up the space of the physical archives, they get the images in a more readily-usable form, and most importantly, they get an infusion of cash.

Wow!!

You guys have me changing my position every few seconds!!! Let me put it this way, independent of how many of these '52 Topps Type 1 photos are out there and how many really do surface and are offered for sale - I JUST WANT TO GET ONE THAT I CAN AFFORD!!!!!!

I really do hope we see some more in the next few years but as Leon has posted, with this sale it is unlikely they will go for much less. Oh well, I can always dream.

little mickey
 

Craig, I think there was a Mickey Mantle child photo(very small phoo booth with a cowboy hat on) that went in the 5 figs if memory serves me right(in lelands several years back. I cannot find it on the site though. Do you remember that one by chance?

Ben

Ben, you are absolutely correct. It was a very cute photo of Mickey and I was tempted to bid but the extremely small size eventually kept me from doing so.

Over the years, Leland's has had a number of original early photos of Mickey most of which I believe originated from the families of childhood friends in Commerce.

With all due respect, I doubt there will ever be 10-15(TRUE TYPE 1s) that ever hit the market. With all of the archives already opened, this is the only one documented. Heck..I have never seen 10-15 or more of one TYPE 1 Rookie image Documented PERIOD(pre-1960s). That doesn't mean that it can't happen of course. I just think that a true rookie image taken in 1951 developed, FROM THE ORIG NEG(not wired) within those 2 years is way rarer then say a 1956 triple crown shot when he was a bigger story/well known. Hence the 2 year type 1 debate and one reason why that requirement was set. If this was printed in 1956 because of his records, popularity etc.. it would be less valuable in my eyes..not period. That is just me.
This could be compared to a 1952 topps mantle vs 1956 topps mantle card..both have images from 1951..(main image in 1952, and the diving in stands in 1956 topps).The difference is when the cards were created/published.

I do agree with two main points that were made below.

A) This sale should bring out a percentage of any out there.
B) The additional photos that surface will not affect the price as the supply is simply too few and the demand is high.

Jimmy-I was wondering how long it was going to take you to respond Mr. Toughy pants.:)

Mr. Toughy Pants? His rant was well worth the wait. I'm afraid the poor guy spilt his Cheerios all over himself in the heat of the moment.

Ben,

I agree with you. As I posted in an earlier response to Hank, I believe we may only see 1 or 2 (hopefully) Type 1 photos of the '52 Topps image ever surface and become available in future auctions.

Mickey actually was a very big story in 1951 - the most publicized rookie in a number of years (mostly due to the NY press, Casey's ranting and his pre-season accomplishments). Over the years I have accumulated a significant number of Mantle Type 1 Rookie photos. Based on what I have, what I have seen in auctions over the past 20 years or so and my discussions with other Mantle collectors I can say with certainty that I know of at least 7 or 8 examples of a number of different and documented Type 1 Rookie Mantle photos. Interestingly, this is actually much more then I have or have seen from any other year - although this part may be somewhat biased since my primary focus has been on these early years ( I do, however, have a multitude of Type 1 photos that span his entire career).

Craig,
I absolutely agree with you on Mantle being a larger story vs say an Ernie banks as a rookie. Therefore, the existence of a greater number of DIFFERENT images. I am just referring to the need to print multiple copies of each in 1951 -53. No need IMO.. as the hype was primarily in NY and there was no real "National" story worthy of sending hard copies to different media outlets. Especially with the wire capabilities. I also noticed that this particular example has date stamps through the late 70s. Which tells me it was the ONE used in house for all/or most of the published stories. I know for a fact that INTERNATIONAL NEWS was the agency who took this original shot and owned the negative(where this originated). If they used this image in house all those decades, what would be the need to print more?? If they did, why not use cleaner examples??? I wouldn’t be shocked if we NEVER see another or less than 3 pop up EVER. BUT… you never know… Mantle was one of teh most photographed athletes EVER so I am not surprised that there are 3-5 inch think folder full of images. BUT..that in NO WAY makes be believe that this one exists in ANY of them. Just some observations on my end. Ben

PS: I think I might have just talked myself into cashing out some retirement and making a run at this. Anyone out there have thoughts other than "It's just a photo" or "You're an idiot for talking a pre-penalty" that can talk me out of this..PLEASE! HAHA :)

Ben, if you cash out a portion of your IRA to pay for this you have 60 days in which to roll a portion or all of those funds back into the IRA to avoid all penalties and tax. Keep in mind that you can only take advantage of this once a year.

Ben,

I think you have made a number of very good points and as far as I can see, we are in complete agreement on this issue.

One last observation, most of the Rookie Type 1 Mantle photos that I referred to in the previous response were all from INP.

PS: If you can do it without stressing the finances too much, then I for one say YES, go for it. If you do, I wish you all the luck in the world!!!!!!!

PSS: However, if you do win and then have second thoughts (which you absolutely should not) please don't blame me.

Best of luck.

Cheers,

Craig

If I spent 100K on a photo I would be divorced. Great photo though!!!

Great thread!
 

I've got to say that I have found this thread to be one of the most interesting and controversial that I have ever read on net54.

All of the points and perspectives that have been expressed by the different members have been very educational. Thanks for opening up my eyes...

Even though I do not collect Mantle, I'm really curious as hell to see the final auction result.... :cool:

I agree with Scott. Even though the topic is clearly dear to my heart and collection focus, I must say that I also have learned a lot about newspaper archives, the ways photos may be treated and the ranges of probabilities for specific Type 1 prints surviving and coming to the market.

So, a big thank you to Jimmy for the insight to start this thread as well as to all those who have enriched it by participating.

Thanks again.

Craig

PS Now if I can only come up with something to trade for this photo. Lets see: wife, kids, house, car ------- Got it, mother-in-law and a free trip to Disney World!!!!!

It used to be that divorce meant arguing over who got the house. Now it would be more like "you take the house, I'll take the Mantle".:)

I was thinking the same thing luckily I would get away with just giving her the house. Just kidding I actually love my wife very much. As an auctioneer I am very lucky I get to enjoy others things for awhile without the expense of owning them myself.

final
 

So it went for 50k as the hammer, plus the 19.5% = $59,750 for the final sticker. With the steam it had earlier I am a bit surprised it didn't get a few more bids. Still, I am sure it's some kind of record number for what type of collectible it is. (post war type 1 baseball photo) congrats to the winner and congrats to the seller

Record for stupidity.

Just kidding, just kidding. Lighten up people.

Ben,
Hope you didn't win this photo... I'll just sell you mine!:D

I second that. NOW, WHO WON IT?

How many times do I have to tell you, WHO IS ON FIRST!

:D

what?

Again Jimmy was ahead of his time. this thread is "great " in so many ways. You have Jimmy and I defending photos against a guy who bought a Babe Ruth Red Sox Type 1 photo for like 6k.... and then ended up selling to me.
Also.. a SECOND Mantle did come up for sale and sold privately this year. The sale price? about 6X what this one went for.