You answered your own question: if there are quite a few cards predating the ostensible rookie you can only call the card a rookie if you ignore the other issues, and then what's the point? A lot of PCs are ACC-listed and are treated by many as rookies [like that early Cobb PC that's gotten so much action lately] so if you are going to expand the rookie thing to cover a card that was never issued in the USA, why not a PC?

That is actually what I thought because I noticed that it does mention the Carpentier fight on the back. How often are the grading companies so wrong about the dates of boxing cards because I have now purchased 2 cards that I thought were rookie cards because of PSA incorrectly dating them. The first was the 1935, which isnt from 1935, United Tobacco Company Joe Louis and now the Juncosa Dempsey which PSA grades as 1920 even while it talks about a fight that happened in 1921 on the back. This is really frustrating coming from a company like PSA. I guess you cant just trust the.most respected grading.company to do their job properly and not guess.

When it comes to the foreign cards, the TPGs more or less follow the lead of whoever cataloged it first. They don't do independent research. Speaking as a cataloger, sometimes it is really difficult to figure out when a card was issued with any degree of accuracy better than within a few years or a decade. Even well-known sets can have revisions, like the 1933 US Caramel set that was listed as a 1932 set until a careful analysis of the biographies on the cards proved that the issue dated to no earlier than March 1933. I can only imagine how hard it was for the oldtimers to figure out things pre-Internet and pre-Google Translate.

PSA actually grades the Juncosa as "1920's" but that apostrophe S doesn't fit in the pop report or set registry listings so if you look the card up on their website it just shows it as 1920. The slab itself will say 1920's, however. It's also that way for the Perales ases de la Pantalla, fyi.

Personally, I'm not very concerned with a fighter's "rookie card." I'm not sure there's a single fighter that I wouldn't rather have a dozen or so later issues over whatever the supposed rookie card is. For me, rarity/personal preference > issue date.

A few others that should be changed on this list are:

1. 1919/1920 Underwood and Underwood Jack Dempsey. Adam has another card from 1919 that could also be considered his rookie as well. Both cards predate his Champion rookie and Strip card rookies.
2. 1964 Nestle Los Juegos Olimpicos Joe Frazier - predates his Panini by 3 years
3. 1977-79 Sportscaster Larry Holmes card (Finnish version much more rare and the one to own).-I dont like Sportscasters but they are a legitimate issue and it is 3-5 years before his Panini (and you already used the Sportscaster series for someone else on the list, so you can't start ignoring it now).

There are also at least 2 Swedish Rekord Magazine cards (2 Different 1956 Floyd Pattersons and a 1962 Sonny Liston) that predate the cards you mention on the list. If you are going to count the Hemmets Journal Clay then you have to count these as well.

-Tom

Speaking of early Floyd Patterson pieces, here is a 1953 [newspaper archive dated on back] promotional card of him:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...n_%20Floyd.jpg

Since he was a 1952 Olympian, this is the earliest card/card-like item of him I've found.

ETA: "Custer" D'Amato. Wow, his parents must've hated him something fierce.

Hi all - greetings, and apologies for the (too long) delay! The list is still a bit of a work in progress, but just a note to say that I agree with all of the three edits mentioned above, and will be correcting the 'master list' accordingly. Regarding the Rekord magazines, unlike the Clay they were not numbered, were not issued as cards, and are not part of a set, so the general consensus thus far as been to exclude those. Again, a hearty thanks to those who have come with suggestions and comments so far. it's been a ton of fun.


And on the personal note, my current WTB list from these cards is below. Anyone have anything available? PSA / SGC / raw all fine.

1887 N174 OLD JUDGE BOB FITZSIMMONS BOB FITZSIMMONS
1890 N310 MAYO CUT PLUG PRIZEFIGHTERS JAMES CORBETT
1901 OGDEN'S LTD. PUGILISTS & WRESTLERS JIM JEFFRIES
1908 RED SUN STANLEY KETCHEL
1915 OGDEN'S LTD. BOXERS JESS WILLARD
1923 W580 HAND CUT GENE TUNNEY
1926 GREILING B&W MAX SCHMELING
1927 GREILING CIGARETTES JACK SHARKEY
1928 W513 TONY CANZONERI
1929 GODFREY PHILIPS PRIMO CARNERA
1948-49 FUTFOL PO-PO/BOXEADORES DISC ARCHIE MOORE
1964 NESTLE JOE FRAZIER

oh, I also forgot to ask - Frazier also has a 1964 Bobbie Card - which would you guys consider the more sought-after card?

Joe Frazier
 

Do people think the Nestle really did come out in 1964 or perhaps it was in 1965 after the Olympics?

What is the actual copyright date printed on the back of the Holmes Sportscasters card?

there's a 1977 Italy, but apparently there's also a rare Finnish version as well. trying to track the exact date of that down. For the sportscasters, there's a ton of unique markings on the back of the cards to determine dates, but it's a bit of a secret code at the moment. trying to decipher now..

Well the copyright would seem to be pretty clear.

Yeah, many have dates, but some don't - just little capital letters, like a B or D. The sportscasters are certainly not my area of expertise though (and I don't have them with me at the moment), so anyone who has more concrete info is more than welcome to chime in. Last year, I bought about 20 different Holmes cards, and I think that I counted 12 different versions/variations among them when all was said and done.

The Finnish version is copyrighted from 1979. The Larry Holmes can't be copyrighted from 1977 because the back of the card talks about him winning the Heavyweight Title from Ken Norton on June 9, 1978. Even though it is from 1979, it still predates his Panini by 3 years. I personally hate Sportscaster cards, because they aren't really cards, and have a much more rare 1981 card as my Holmes rookie. If anyone is interested in my Finnish Sportscaster (I believe it is the rarest version) Larry Holmes then email me at oldmanvintagecards@gmail.com and I will send you scans of the front and back. It is the only Finnish Larry Holmes I have ever seen and is in mint condition.

FINNISH HOLMES SPORTSCASTER SOLD, pleaae do not email me about it anymore.

Thanks for the info! Yes, this must be a 79 issue then - even if copyright dates claim earlier on the card. Given the number of releases in different countries they had, I can believe that they were not the most exacting when it came to updating the backs of these. When I get a chance, I'll look at all of mine to see if they all have the same back text, or if some were actually issued earlier. I'm guessing they're all the same, but you never know..