cost of doing business....
 

I just factor in shipping costs into the price I am bidding/paying. If they are way, way out of line then I might say something or ding the seller. There is no reason for them to charge WAY more and try to recoup their fees in the shipping....even if they stated it. That being said I can't remember ever dinging anyone. I am just stating an opinion. I don't sell on ebay anymore for a variety of reasons and one of the main ones being the egregious fees they charge (including forcing an online payment, knowing they will get an extra 3% by doing so). regards

btw, I think the worst change of all has been not allowing sellers to leave feedback

OK not sleazy but still it seems to me that if you are going to use someone's service, i.e. ebay, you should play by the rules and not try to cheat them out of their fees. Easy for me to say I suppose as I don't sell much.

I would agree with that. But if ebay is going to get a huge slice of the pie, I see no reason why the seller must eat the entire cost of that slice and cannot pass -- up front and prior to accepting bids -- some of that cost to the ultimate buyer.

My biggest problem with ebay shipping feedback are the choices:

Very reasonable = 5 stars
Reasonable = 4 stars

That makes me think if actual cost is charged then you give 4 stars and only give 5 stars if you get a discount. Shouldn't actual cost deserve 5 stars?

In order to maintain certain seller privledges, including discounted seller fees, you must keep all ratings above 4.5.

I'll be the "Lost Soul" on this one... call me a crooked snake in the grass but if I have an item for sale that's worth about $10, I want to pocket as much as I can towards the actual price without feeling sore in my lower region the next morning. I have no problem with being charged a flat-rate insertion fee by Ebay... it's the Final Value fee that I find insulting.

Ebay buyers are looking for a deal, as am I when I make a bid. Say for instance you are selling a $10 DVD. You know it's worth $10, the buyer knows it's worth $10 so you list it for $10 and it doesn't sell because the seller has to tack on $3 for shipping. So you relist it for $7 w/$3 shipping. Now it sells for $7.01 (+ $3 shipping) because it's the same price as one can buy it from the local Best Buy. The seller is now out $3, plus Ebay fees, plus a little extra for delivery confirmation, plus PayPal fees. Now the item you knew was worth $10 is now worth about $5.50... give or take. It's a bad deal for the seller and the same deal the buyer would get at Best Buy. If I have the option to use a little Vasoline and reverse shipping costs with the listing price... I'll do it until Ebay snuffs me out! Call me crooked!

Most of the problem in that case seems to be that your DVD starts out being worth only $7 since you have to ship it in any case.

It really doesn't matter what you feel, in your head or your groin. When you opened an Ebay account, you agreed to abide by their rules and regulations. Period.

Clearly, shifting the revenue dollars from the "Sales" column (where you pay a % to Ebay) to the "Shipping" column (where you pay no % to Ebay), is an attempt to cheat Ebay out out their fees. There is no other way to look at it. Any honest person would see it that way. Ebay will see it that way. A judge or jury would see it that way.

Coming on a public message board and admitting that you go out of your way to cheat someone (in this case, Ebay) out of what's due them is very telling. Your exact words were: "The seller saves several bucks and Ebay loses a few." Unless Ebay was a party to this agreement to "lose a few bucks," you are stealing from them.

Since you admit to being a crooked seller, would you mind telling us your Ebay ID?


Edited to add: I don't really think for a second that you are a crooked seller. I just think you haven't thought this through completely.

wow..... just wow. Your auctions wont last long.

That's correct. If the item for sale is a known price (like a DVD), the seller has to reduce the price to include shipping for the item to move; Otherwise the buyer won't touch it for $13 if he can get it for $10 at Best Buy.... that doesn't mean the item is now worth $7 (only in Ebay land). Now the seller has already paid the insertion fee, now they pay a final value fee (I believe 9%), plus extra $.80 for delivery confirmation & then Paypal fees. By the time the meat is picked off the bone... it's really not worth selling on Ebay (like Leon mentioned earlier). That's why I don't have a moral issue with listing the item for a penny with a higher shipping cost to minimize Ebay's fees. Ebay hits an item twice with fees (before and after a sale) and passes them along to the Seller. The Buyer pays the same costs regardless of how it's listed, the Seller pockets more and Ebay takes less from the Final Value Fee.

I'm just now seeing this first-hand from a Seller's perspective since I just started selling some extra items I had in storage. It's probably better in the long run, in my case, to have a garage sale or just donate it for a very small tax credit.

I hear what you are saying. I've actually had potential buyers ask why shipping was high and I answered the question and posted it (just like on this forum) for everyone to see... including Ebay.

My Ebay ID is mds0319. If Ebay chooses to shut me down... Oh well! It's not like I make a living from selling crap out of my attic.... (I'll run out eventually)! Hell, if Ebay wants... they can come over and take the rest of the crap out and keep it as a replacement value for the fees they were shorted on by my sales.... it must be up to at least $4.00 now!!

Just to get the thread back on topic - I also won 3 of his raw T206s last month. He charged me $6 for shipping. I paid and the cards came and were much better than I had expected. I don't care what it really cost him to ship the cards - he stated clearly in the auction that shipping was $4 for the auction, and I was happy that he combined shipping on 3 cards and charged only $6. They were packaged pretty well so I had no problem with the transaction. When I bid, I had accounted for the $4 in the final price so I was happy with the final price also. If I was willing to pay $20 for a card and shipping was $2, I would bid $18.
If shipping was $10, then I would only bid $10. What difference does it make to me?

You would agree that the buyer is not being screwed here, right? And that the only entity that loses in this transaction is ebay, right?

If anything, that might make someone a crooked user of ebay, but it doesn't make them a crooked seller. I hardly think it's my business as a buyer to assess whether the seller is improperly working around ebay's ever-changing rules and escalating fees.

Unless you own stock in ebay or are otherwise dependent upon the health of ebay for your hobby or business, I do not fully appreciate the perspective that defends ebay's rules and rights to its fees.

Cheating is cheating in my book. Doesn't matter to me if it's a person or a company being cheated.

And, it really doesn't matter if you "appreciate the perspective" or not. If you use their system, you have agreed to abide by their rules. If you don't like them, then use another conduit for sales.

It could not be any clearer to me.

It's funny, Paul, for most issues in life (politics, the economy, religion, etc.) I have noticed that most people have been sucked into a "left or right," "black or white," vortex, and I always tend to see things as very middle of the road and/or gray.

This isn't one of those issues.

Obviously. I would say that I understand the general concept of adhering to the rules you agree to when you sign a contract or play a game. I just don't think that what the seller has done here makes him crooked, at least not in the eyes of the buyer.

In any event, I do not understand the rule that ebay prohibits the deferral of fees from the buyer to the seller, and yet allows sellers to set their own flat shipping and handling fees. To me, that is where the gray is. The ambiguity is built into their rules. To me, if you are going to charge me a $5.00 fee for selling an item, I should be allowed to consider some or all of that a "handling" fee. Ebay is no worse off financially, the buyer understands the conditions of the sale up front before bidding. It is a rule without a purpose, that cannot be policed.

In short, to me, it is a stupid rule. And if there is anything I feel pretty strongly about, it is adhering to rules that serve no purpose and only harm me when enforced. But if "adhere to all rules" is your dogma, to each his own.

I, sometimes, drive faster than the posted limit. :D

Cheater.... ;)

It's not defering the fees from the seller to the buyer, it's circumventing them almost entirely. With a .01 price and high shipping fee Ebay recieves very little in the way of fees, the buyer as always pays none. Ebay has made a rule that doing that isn't allowed. (I think technically it might be a theft of services but a small one.)

What gives them the right to make this rule is that they provide
The servers the site runs on.
The expensive computer people to run those servers.
The ads promoting the site(Also not cheap)
All of which makes a nice venue that because it was first and at one time the best of its kind.
And that provides lots of customers.

And all that is worth something. To expect to be given free access to an advertising venue that's been built up to a very successful level is pretty unfair. I'm not big fan of their fees and rules, but it Is their site and therefore their rules.

Steve B

I know. I know. But I'm better now that I have two teenage drivers. Too many questions that were too hard to answer.

The problem I have with an issue like this is, how do you know where to draw the line? If it's OK to cheat Ebay because you don't like their rules, is it OK to cheat State and Local governments that expect sales tax? Then, is it OK to cheat the IRS by not reporting any profits? If it's not OK to cheat those you sell to, is it OK to cheat those you buy from (suppliers, vendors, grading companies, other sellers)?

I fine definitive lines only in two places. It's not OK to cheat anyone, or it's OK to cheat them all.

As I say, with two kids in the house, I have to say the only answer is the first choice.

We all draw our lines. I do not seek to deprive ebay of its hard-earned fees. But, if you ask me what my shipping fee is, I'll tell you bubble mailer+postage+pain-in-the-ass fees (including, but not limited to time and costs associated with buying the bubble envelope at Staples and making my way to a post office and paper packing slip and printer ink, and some reasonable portion of the ebay/paypal fees).

If ebay wants to collect $5 from me as a seller, I see nothing wrong in an up front deferral of some or all of those fees to the buyer.

I make no represetations one way or the other regarding a penny auction with an $800 shipping charge for an $800 card. That's between seller and ebay. The buyer should be indifferent.

When I started selling a few weeks ago, I played by Ebay's rules. By the time I relisted one of the larger items multiple times at $3.00 a pop, I knew I had to change things. Ebay never offered to refund my listing fees because my item didn't sell... nor did I expect them to. If you take the amount of listing fees I spent on items that didn't sell, minus what I "screwed" Ebay out of on Final Value Fees... Ebay still comes out the winner. I do not shed any tears for Ebay nor do I lose any sleep over feelings of guilt. My priorities on selling first goes to the Buyer, then myself. Ebay still makes money on my listings... just not as much!

BTW: On 3 of my posted items, I had questions asked by potential bidders, about the higher shipping costs. I responded to their questions, and posted all correspondence for anyone to see... including Ebay. My answers were along the lines of, "I posted a higher shipping cost to maintain the value of the item but to also minimize Ebay's Final Value Fees". Not once did I have anyone object to this statement, nor did I receive an infraction from Ebay.

Most buyers shouldn't care, which is why no one will be objecting. The only issue will be if someone on this board doesn't like your tone and decides to rat you out to eBay. Some of the people who view these threads are really closely aligned with ebay, either as power sellers, or as fraud police. One of them could go out of their way to rat you out, but I would hope that wouldn't happen.

The fact that ebay has made a profit on you is probably not the best motivation for self-helping yourself to some of their expected profit. At least, it's not particularly persuasive. You found a way around the ebay listing fees. Eventually ebay might catch on and penalize you. Or not. I don't really care one way or the other.

Yeah, I don't really care either... that's why I had no problem listing my Ebay ID on here. If Ebay deems me a terrorist and cancels my account... Oh well! As long as I'm open an honest with the Buyer and they are happy...I'm happy. It doesn't hurt to make a little cash either!!;)

Paul, Mike,

Fair enough.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to exert my will, or values on anyone else. I was just expressing my opinions.

My two cents....it is silly to argue about a $4 shipping charge, unless it comes in a plain, white envlope with a 44 cent stamps. I know buyers want shipping as cheap as possible, but the only way I know of to ship it cheaply is to affix a stamp and an address label straight on the PSA slab itself (and even then, I think the slab is considered too small to just put a stamp on and mail it by itself).

Jim,

I respect your opinion and you make valid points, not just on this thread but others that I've read as well. I don't get to participate much in this forum since I know very little about pre-war cards so I thought I would jump in and share my recent experiences with Ebay regarding shipping practices. Although we share different opinions on this, I appreciate the honesty and keeping everything civil. You're a top notch guy and I look forward to reading more of your posts. BTW... this helps my posting percentages as well! Check it out Leon!!!

Mike,

You'll always be OK with me... ever since you made that crack about divorcing a "crack head stripper."

You've got equity for life, with me.

I wish I was joking on that one... unfortunately, it was the truth. Boy, do I have some stories for you.... maybe down the road when things are slow on here! May God Bless!

Actually in the Ebay universe it goes something like this:

5 stars = Good
4 stars = Very Bad
3 stars = Very, very bad
2 stars = Incredibly, viciously bad
1 star = You should probably spend some time in prison, and think about what you did.

Somehow I accumulated several 1 or 2 star scores on my Shipping cost DSR's, despite an overall average of 4.9 in that category and lost my Ebay seller discount.

I have no idea which items I scored low on, who left the low scores, and have no idea how to make it right, since the people who left those scores never made their dissatisfaction with my shipping charges known to me.

:confused:

It was probably your competitors trying to drive you off Ebay.