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Okay, I have finally sorted through my entire lot and have quite a few new additions to the list. I can confirm the following additions:
Type 1: Mays Type 2: Barber Burns (Cincinnati) Bush Cutshaw Dykes (batting) Chick Fewster Wilson Fewster Heilman Hubbell W. Johnson Kerr Kopf Bob Meusel Olson Type 2 Reversed: Burns (Cincinnati) Coveleskie Cunningham Chick Fewster Griffith Byron Harris Heilman Kelly Liebold Milan Neale Oeschger O'Farrell Rapp Scott Sewell Shannon Stock (batting) Wambsgauss Witt Subjects with all three backs: Chick Fewster Heilman |
Thanks
Thanks Marc for all the great updates to the back lists. I love the fact that with the Mays we now know the Type 1 backs are available for every card in the set. It also is looking more likely that the 2 Reversed backs might, with more input and observation, also span the entire set. I will update the lists in a day or two, and feel free to chime in.
Brian |
I wonder if maybe all of the backs are available across the full run but perhaps the regular Type 2 backs were short printed as they certainly appear to be the least common of the three variations. My thought is that there may have been three full printings of the set, one with each of the backs, but the Type 2 and Type 2 reversed were possibly done later and in smaller quantities. The only thing that makes me question that is the inclusion of the few players with two different poses. It would seem odd that they would have two cards of some of the players, all of whom are pretty non-descript. However, both Kilduff poses are found with the Type 2, both Snyders with the Type 2, and both Stocks with the Type 2 reversed, so obviously those were printed in the same run.
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Updation
Thanks to Marc's input, not only have all 120 cards been verified to have the Type 1 back, but we have been able to add substantially to the verified Type 2 and Type 2 reversed listings. I have updated the listings below.
Brian Type 1 backs have been verified for all 120 cards. 'Regular' Type 2 backs verified (46 currently): G.C. Alexander Turner Barber George Burns (Cincinnati) Joe Bush Wilbur Cooper Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Jimmy Dykes (batting) "Red" Faber Chick Fewster Wilson Fewster Walter Gerber Hank Gowdy Charles Grimm Sam Harris Harry Heilman Chas. Hollocher Wilbert Hubbell Walter Johnson Jimmy Johnston Dick Kerr Pete Kilduff (bending) Pete Kilduff (leaping) Larry Kopf Walter "Buster" Mails Walter "Rabbit" Maranville Bob Meusel Ivan Olson Steve O'Neill Geo. Paskert Roger Peckinpaugh V.J. Picinich Wally Pipp Jimmy Ring Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Maurice Shannon Bob Shawkey Urban Shocker John Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) James Vaughan Robert Veach George Whitted (batting) Arthur Wilson Reversed Type 2 backs verified (88 currently): Babe Adams James Austin Franklin "Home Run" Baker Dave Bancroft George Burns (Cincinnati) George Burns (Cleveland) Joe Bush Leon Cadore Max Carey Eddie Collins John Collins S. Covaleskie Walton Cruise Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Jake Daubert Chas. A Deal Bill Doak Joe Dugan Jimmy Dykes (fielding) Chick Fewster Ira Flagstead Arthur Fletcher Frank Frisch Larry Gardner Walter Gerber Charles Glazner J.C. Graney Tommy Griffith Heinie Groh Byron Harris Sam Harris Harry Heilman Claude Hendrix Chas. Hollocher Harry Hooper Rogers Hornsby Waite Hoyt Wilbert Hubbell William Jacobsen Walter Johnson Geo. "Bingo" Kelly Larry Kopf Harry Leibold H.B. Leonard Walter "Buster" Mails Carl Mays Lee Meadows Emil Meusel J.C. Milan Earl Neale Robert Nehf Bernie Neis Joe Oeschger Robert O'Farrell Ivan Olson Ralph "Cy" Perkins Scott Perry Jeff Pfeffer Wally Pipp Derill Pratt Goldie Rapp Edgar Rice Eddie Rousch Babe Ruth Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Joe Sewell Maurice Shannon Urban Shocker George Sisler Earl Smith John Smith Sherrod Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) Vernon Spencer Chas. "Casey" Stengle Milton Stock (batting) Milton Stock (fielding) Wm. Wambsgauss Aaron Ward Zach Wheat George Whitted (fielding) Fred C. Williams Lawton Witt "Pep" Young Ross Young Subjects that have been seen with all three back types, which are any that are noted in both lists above...but to make it easier (22 total): George Burns (Cincinnati) Joe Bush Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Chick Fewster Walter Gerber Sam Harris Harry Heilman Chas. Hollocher Wilbert Hubbell Walter Johnson Larry Kopf Walter "Buster" Mails Ivan Olson Wally Pipp Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Maurice Shannon Urban Shocker John Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) |
Great info Brian et al..... Thanks for sharing on a fairly common but still obscure issue.
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Looking at the E220 thread that Rhett provided a link for and the listings of players that have been verified in each of the 3 different back styles shown, it appears that Rhett's theory that the E220 set is likely a 1922 issue is accurate, as one of the cards that he references as started in 1922 with the team identified on his card (George Burns - Cincinnati) is seen with all three back types.
For example it is possible that the Type 1 back, which all 120 cards have been identified as existing, was partially issued in 1921 and then in 1922 (which might account for the multiple poses seen in the set of some players, like Pete Kilduff bending and Pete Kilduff leaping, etc.). I think 1923 is not a likely date, but with the handful of cards that Rhett identified as having ended their careers in 1920 with the team identified on their cards, that we can't rule out a multi-year issue of this set (1921 +1922). Brian |
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This question had been nagging me for a few years when I recently stumbled upon this thread.
I just found it to be a remarkable coincidence that two similarly named companies from the same City would make almost identical card sets but that one would be a full year earlier than the other. Not that it wasn't possible, but it just seemed strange, and I wondered whether the two companies were maybe affiliated and released similar cards under different brands. Anyway, I tried to find some information on the companies themselves and, maybe this is a doozy? From page 681 from the History of Lancaster County, PA In case the image doesn't come through, two points: 1. National Caramel Company wasn't incorporated until May 1921 2. The founders of National Caramel were both Executives at American Caramel until they left and started the competitor in 1921. Now, does this mean that E220 wasn't a 1921 release? No, but boy it sure does tighten up that window. It may also give insight into the similarities behind the cards. Not unreasonable to think that these American Caramel executives were well aware of the E121 cards, knew what it took to design and produce and simply took that concept with them over to National Caramel for their own E220. That would start to explain the visual/design similarities between the two sets. Less charitably: I don't think it is a stretch to say that National Caramel stole the American Caramel idea -- and very possibly photos, designs, printers etc. -- and copied it for themselves. This assumption would make it especially odd that a player like Stan Coveleski would have a card with identical photos in E121-120 and E220 but NOT E121-80. Same with Herb Pennock. I find it far more likely that those E121-120 cards were issued in the same year as E220, on the basis that the American Caramel Executives that were involved with the one left the company and moved to the other. It certainly didn't happen the other way around. Anyway, food for thought (or something to chew on :) ) in an old thread. |
Thanks for chiming in on this older thread.
Very interesting information about the ties between the American Caramel Co and National Caramel Co. that I had never heard before. |
Nice background info on the (previously not identified?) National and American Caramel connection. To me everything still points, as Rhett originally suggested, to a 1922 issue date.
I will follow this post with an updated verified back list, with scans illustrating the three backs as a reminder, and will include a new category listing the handful of cards that still only have one back verified, which includes a couple of big name stars. Brian |
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As promised, here is the updated confirmed back variation list. But first, as a reminder, are the three various backs, shown left to right as Type 1 ('B' of 'BALL' in 2nd line of text underneath 'p' of 'pictures' in the first line), Type 2 (same 'B' under 'i' of 'pictures) and Type 3 (aka Reversed Type 2) (text reads bottom to top on back, and like regular Type 2, the 'B' is under the 'i'):
Attachment 578957 Attachment 578958 And here are the updated lists, with new additions in bold (all Type 3), and a new category ("Cards only seen in Type 1"), which surprisingly has a couple of bigger name players that one would figure that all existing backs would have already been identified. Edit to identify that Pat found 4 of the 6 on the list, including the Cobb and Speaker. Because of this I am thinking it likely that the other two will be verified...? Type 1 - backs have been verified for all 120 cards. 'Regular' Type 2 - verified backs (47* currently): G.C. Alexander Turner Barber George Burns (Cincinnati) Joe Bush Wilbur Cooper Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Jimmy Dykes (batting) "Red" Faber Chick Fewster Wilson Fewster Walter Gerber Hank Gowdy Charles Grimm Sam Harris Harry Heilman Chas. Hollocher Wilbert Hubbell Walter Johnson Jimmy Johnston Dick Kerr Pete Kilduff (bending) Pete Kilduff (leaping) Larry Kopf Walter "Buster" Mails Walter "Rabbit" Maranville Bob Meusel Bob O'Farrell* Ivan Olson Steve O'Neill Geo. Paskert Roger Peckinpaugh V.J. Picinich Wally Pipp Jimmy Ring Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Maurice Shannon Bob Shawkey Urban Shocker John Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) James Vaughan Robert Veach George Whitted (batting) Arthur Wilson Type 3 (aka Reversed Type 2) - verified backs (100* currently): Babe Adams James Austin Franklin "Home Run" Baker Dave Bancroft George Burns (Cincinnati) George Burns (Cleveland) Joe Bush Leon Cadore Max Carey Ty Cobb Eddie Collins John Collins S. Covaleskie Walton Cruise Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Jake Daubert Chas. A Deal Bill Doak Joe Dugan Jimmy Dykes (fielding) Chick Fewster Ira Flagstead Arthur Fletcher Frank Frisch Larry Gardner Walter Gerber Charles Glazner J.C. Graney Tommy Griffith Charles Grimm* Heinie Groh Byron Harris Sam Harris Harry Heilman Claude Hendrix Walt Henline Chas. Hollocher Harry Hooper Rogers Hornsby Waite Hoyt Wilbert Hubbell William Jacobsen Walter Johnson Jimmy Johnston* Joe Judge Geo. "Bingo" Kelly Pete Kilduff (bending down)* Larry Kopf Harry Leibold H.B. Leonard Walter "Buster" Mails Carl Mays Lee Meadows Bob Meusel* Emil Meusel J.C. Milan Earl Neale Robert Nehf Bernie Neis Joe Oeschger Robert O'Farrell Ivan Olson Geo. Paskert Herb Pennock Ralph "Cy" Perkins Scott Perry Jeff Pfeffer Wally Pipp Derill Pratt Goldie Rapp Edgar Rice Eddie Rousch Babe Ruth Wally Schang Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Joe Sewell Maurice Shannon Urban Shocker George Sisler Earl Smith John Smith Sherrod Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) Tris Speaker Vernon Spencer Chas. "Casey" Stengle Milton Stock (batting) Milton Stock (fielding) Wm. Wambsgauss Aaron Ward Zach Wheat George Whitted (fielding) Fred C. Williams Ivy Wingo* Lawton Witt "Pep" Young Ross Young Cards that have been seen with all three back types, which are any that are noted in both lists above (28* total): George Burns (Cincinnati) Joe Bush Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Chick Fewster Walter Gerber Charles Grimm* Sam Harris Harry Heilman Chas. Hollocher Wilbert Hubbell Walter Johnson Jimmy Johnston* Pete Kilduff (bending down)* Larry Kopf Walter "Buster" Mails Bob Meusel* Bob O'Farrell* Ivan Olson Geo. Paskert Wally Pipp Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Maurice Shannon Urban Shocker John Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) Cards that currently have only a Type 1 back verified: Jim Bagby The below were verified by Pat with having a Type 3 back in the post following this one: Ty Cobb Herb Pennock Wally Schang Tris Speaker Still looking for additional back verifications, your help as always will be appreciated. Brian |
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Brian, I don't know the set so I'm not sure if all of these are authentic but if they are comparing the fronts to the back scans I believe they are all type 3's.
Attachment 578998 Attachment 578999 Attachment 579000 Attachment 579001 |
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I will update the list on the previous post. Now just to find the Wingo and Bagby with a Type 2 or Type 3 back (keep in mind that all E220 Bagby cards have Bagby's last name incorrectly spelled as Bagbyk, which, by the way, is my all-time favorite misspelled name on a card). Brian |
Updated post #60 with additions/changes to the lists, current to 5/31/24. New additions are noted with both bold type AND an '*'.
Brian |
Has anyone else noticed that the E220 Frisch lists him as a third baseman, just like the 1921 E121-80, but unlike the 1922 E121-120? This could be evidence of a 1921 issue date. But it's pretty weak evidence compared to the information Rhett presented 14 years ago, so I'm still sticking to Rhett's 1922 date.
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I also still agree with Rhett's 1922 assessment as well. 1920 3B 109 games 1920 SS 2 games 1921 3B 93 games 1921 2B 61 games 1922 2B 85 games 1922 3B 53 games 1922 SS 1 game Brian |
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