Rizzuto out; Larkin in. (Blyleven also should be in).

Hof
 

mazeroski out ---gavvy cravath in.
one key and deservedly celebrated homer does not a HOF'er make.

best,
barry

Mazeroski OUT (always amazed me he went in)
Gil Hodges IN (always amazed me he didnt)

I'm of the opinion that everyone in the HOF belongs there for multiple reasons. I know there is an opinion that some players (Frisch and Williams) lobbied for induction of their "friends", but I don't look at it like that. You can't take today's standards and apply them to previous eras. Many people that saw him play will tell you that Bobby Doerr was the best 2b they have ever seen, although by today's stats you may want to get rid of him...same with Mazeroski, Hafey, Marquard, etc. If the Hall of Fame was only for the ultra ultra ultra elite, then it would surely be a very small hall indeed. And don't forget, there are many players in the Hall that you would think definitely belong, but which were not elected until many many years after they were eligible. What does that say about the voting for the Hall?
With that said, let's not forget that there are several players that are deserving of enshrinement that for one reason or another (mostly stupid sports writers) have been excluded. If I had to pick only one (sorry Thurman and Gil...you'd both be up there too) I'd have to pick Lefty O'Doul.

I completely agree with this. It is very difficult to get in. Only 1-2 players per year get enshrined, and many deserving players have had to wait a very long time. I would like to see Dale Murphy get more consideration (along with Gil Hodges).

I was also dismayed at how little support Barry Larkin got on his first try. Although I wouldn't remove Ozzie Smith, I believe Larkin was a far more valuable overall player. Multi-dimensional... great glove, great speed, and the best offensive shortstop of his time. Also an MVP, Team Captain and a World Champion in 1990 (a big accomplishment, playing for the Reds of that era).

No backflips or much other publicity, playing in Cincy.... but still the best shortstop of his era.

Ted Simmons in, Bill Mazeroski out. Simmons is a victim of what media markets he played in.

Whenever someone asks me who the most underrated player of all time was, I say Ted Simmons. Compare his stats with Gary Carters and tell me Carter was better.

I agree 100%. I can't kick Carter out but Simmons is getting the shaft.

Mazz out..
Ron Santo in.. greatest Cub ever. ;)

managers
 

Herzog out - Buck O'Neil in

Jason, Rob... thanks. If you can get Simmons in, then I can tolerate Carter remaining. I just can't see the fairness of Carter getting in ahead of Simmons.

Oz was good for about a negative run in the field... he covered a lot of ground dependably well. And he was good for a bit of offense toward the end of his career. I gotta figure the pitchers that he played behind, and against, would all love to have him fielding behind them every game. The aerials didn't get him into the Hall... Maybe being about the best at his position, defining short stop play, that might have.

I'm with you on Simmons. I don't think he even got past the first year of eligibility.

I wouldn't kick Carter out either.

I had been going back and forth the last couple days with myself. Put Simmons in and kick out another catcher.

Fact is............there's no catcher in the Hall I'd kick out, regardless of Offensive stats. I might even consider putting somebody like Bob Boone in the HOF.

The absolute toughest position in baseball (by a mile) is woefully under-represented in the HOF..........and it is mostly because it's an offensively driven honor.

A valuable catcher who can make a pitching staff better, call a solid game behind the plate, block balls, throw runners out.........or just keep them on firmly planted on first base (like I-Rod did for many years of his career, though he may not have been the best handler of pitchers)............may be the most valuable guy on the team, regardless of the stats they put up. It's the reason why so many Catchers eventually become Managers after their careers are over.

I really hope Jorge Posada is voted in when his time comes. After the Pudge steroid disaster he is in my opinion far and away the best catcher or his day.

I wouldn't say Posada was better than Mike Piazza, especially at the plate.
Piazza may have been the best hitting catcher ever, hit for both power and average. Not great behind the plate, but Posada isn't either.

I totally forgot about Piazza. You're right about that.

Drysdale and Pop Haines out. Blyleven and Jack Morris in.

One reason his name is not brought up as greatest ever: Honus Wagner. But, no question, defensively Vizquel was as good as anybody who played the position.

Apples and oranges?
 

Originally Posted by packs
There is a lot of talk about defense and how it relates to the HOF. Vizquel has the best fielding percentage of all time. Statistically, he is the best short stop to ever play the game and was still active when Ozzie retired. And remains active today. He leads or is in the top 5 All Time for most defensive catagories. I don't know why people never bring his name up as the greatest ever. He has better offensive career numbers than Smith, Mazeroski, Maranville and Pee Wee Reese.

The players listed here -- Omar Vizquel, Ozzie Smith, Rabbit Maranville and Pee Wee Reese, all played the vast majority of their careers at short. After all, that's what at issue here.

But fellas, Maz played second. Maybe some of the reason he gets no love in the forum is because fewer people know this than should.

By the way, is a ptcher primarily an offensive or a defensive player?

Players:

Out: Herb Pennock, Geo. Kelly, Fred Lindstrom, Pop Haines, Chick Hafey; D. Bancroft; R. Schalk

In: Ron Santo; Mark McGwire, Jack Morris; T. Simmons; Tim Raines
(also: Larkin, Alomar and Blyleven all of whom appear to be on the way in the next few yrs. )

Dead-Ball/Turn of the Century-- 19th Cent
Out: Chief Bender; Bobby Wallace; Rube Marquard; Tommy McCarthy

In: Bill Dahlen; Deacon White; Bobby Caruthers; Harry Stovey; Cal McVey

Negro Leagues/MGMT/Pioneers & Umps etc.
Out: Pompez; Posey; E. Manley; Candy Cummings; B. Kuhn; M. Bulkeley

In: Buck O'Neal; Cannonball Redding; Marvin Miller; John Beckwith (NL); H. O'Day (Ump); J. Jackson (lifetime ban expired?)

Out - George Kelly.

In....Nobody has mentioned the great Tony Oliva.

substitute HOFers
 

While I probably wouldn't want to kick anyone out, there are surely a few head scratchers in the HOF.

I guess since its just for fun, I cant see how Jesse Haines was elected...check out the BBWA voting numbers, although mentioned on 12 ballots over the years, Pop's very BEST year was when he garnered 22 votes of 266 cast. Most years he was way less popular.

But then the Veteran's commitee elected him in 1970 , just 33 years after his last season...somehow he got very popular during those three decades of retirement.
His 210 wins ,with three 20 win seasons are certainly not on the same level as many of the other HOF pitchers.

So, Blyleven in, Haines out...

If we don't have to go position by position...let's put in George Van Haltren whose short career as a pitcher still yielded 40 wins. His runs scored (a very important but underrated stat in my opinion) are 35th all time!

One thing to keep in mind here is that of all the major sports' Hall of Fame's the BBHOF is the hardest to get into. Some people IMO have no business being in the Hall (Bulkeley, Manley, etc.) but I think the BBHOF's standards are pretty high in comparison to most HOF's and there is certainly room for more deserving people in there.

There are definitely some strange inclusions and some even stranger exclusions (ex. How is Ray Schalk in but Wally Schang is not, is it because Schalk's name is before Schang's alphabetically?:))

-Rhett

I do not care who gets kicked out. But, Hodges should be in. Rose should be in. Maybe Rose should be banned as a manager, but not as a player. "The Best of The Best"...Pete Rose, Joe Jackson, and several of the other Black Sox...They were the best the game had to offer. Ozzie Smith definately deserves his place in the Hall. He did things on short that were just short of miraculous at the time. He reinvented the art of fielding. Everytime a ball was hit at him, you just knew something special was about to happen. His style left a permenant stamp on the game. In my mind, he changed the game. He should be there and it's crazy to think that someone who watched his play wouldn't agree.

I thought this was interesting (although I don't agree) ...from a question and answer article with Bill James on who should not be in the Hall:
Fred Lindstrom, Jesse Haines, Tommy McCarthy, Lloyd Waner, George Kelly, Ross Youngs, Roger Bresnahan, Earle Combs, Jim Bottomley, and Chick Hafey.

Interesting list. Good baseball men on it.

OUT: All the fringe Hall of Famers who got in just because they played for the New York Yankees. NYC is not the center of the baseball world.

IN: Marvin Miller, Buck O’Neil, Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Edgar Martinez (if a closer can get in then so should a DH).

REVOKED: I would like to see writers who let their own personal agenda get in their way when voting. It is about what they did on the filed and nothing else. NO players has gotten 100% of the votes? There are “average” Hall of Famers and then there are Hall of Fame Hall of Famers. No brainers, if you don’t vote for Babe Ruth then you should lose your vote. How can you justify not voting for a lot of these guys? Rickey Henderson? Ted Williams, etc.. the list goes on and on. In the next few years we are going to have votes not vote for a player becuase they assume that certain players took steriods even though their may not be proof.

Mike, good list of people that should be in. If we don't include DH's for Hall consideration, then we should do away with that position all together. As for Buck O'neil, the Hall knows it blew it which is why they have enshrined him with the lifetime achievement award which is named after him. Much like the Hall's award for writers and broadcasters, many may feel like they are not "hall of famers" but I do...it's just a different wing.
As for Marvin Miller...totally political. He belongs in the Hall just as much as any owner or GM that ever got in.
As a side note to the post about Bill James's list of players that don't belong...I went back and compared Jim Bottomley with Tony Perez...Bottomley played 7 fewer seasons but had only about 200 less RBI's and 30 points higher in batting average, led the league in HR's once and RBI's twice...and was MVP once. Tony never led the league or was mvp..he did have more homeruns, but again, in 7 more seasons. Not sure why James would want to take out Bottomley.

If you go strictly by offensive numbers, Bob Johnson had much better stats then several of his contemporaries who are in the HOF.

I don't think Bottomley should be out either.... he definitely belongs. But let's remember there's more to it than just stats.... Perez was the greatest clutch hitter of his time, and there were no stats for that. Nobody could deliver the clutch 2 out hit like Perez. Sparky Anderson later admitted that Perez was the heart and soul of the Big Red Machine Chapionship teams, and the Reds of that era never won anything again after Tony was traded.

Also... Perez played in an era when pitching was more dominant. Just as hitting stats were greatly inflated during the late '90s and early 2000s, offensive statistics were significantly lower during the 60s/70s. This reinforces the greatness of other 60s/70s stars as well (Aaron, Clemente, Mays, McCovey, Cepeda, Schmidt, Robinson, Kaline, Killebrew, Yaz, to name just a few).

If you go by "games played" (and what else would it be?), we already have a DH in the Hall of Fame. His name is Paul Molitor.

I agree with you 100 percent Perezfan. I wasn't trying to knock Tony...heck, I saw him play most of his career and know what a great player he was, I was just trying to give some love for Sunny Jim. You bring up a good point though, there are no stats for clutch hits, clutch wins, etc. For all we know, Jesse Haines was a clutch pitcher, Chick Hafey a clutch hitter, etc. That's why I say it's pretty hard to say a player should not be in the Hall. Where it really gets tough is when one player is in and then another (with similar stats) is not.

Wow - nice call!

More on Simmons
 

A little more on Ted Simmons from the www.thebaseballpage.com

I know he is very debatable, but how could he have left the ballot after only 1 year? I think the BBWAA seriously disrespected Simmons.

A grassroots campaign to get Ted Simmons inducted into the Hall of Fame has rarely drawn much attention. The switch-hitting catcher spent 21 years in the big leagues, and retired with more RBI than Johnny Bench, more runs scored than Gary Carter, more hits than Carlton Fisk, and a higher batting average than Yogi Berra. But his longevity has not obscured the fact that he was considered a mediocre defensive catcher, against whom baserunners frequently ran wild. With the stick however, Simmons accumulated 2,472 hits, the highest figure by a player who was primarily a catcher. He hit .300 seven times, and was frequently among league leaders in hits, doubles, and intentional walks.

"All you ever hear is Bench and Munson and Fisk. Nobody ever talks about Simmons. He's the most underrated catcher. He's never got the recognition he deserves. But where can you find a catcher that can do all the things Simmons can do? He hits better than any of them, and he calls a great game. And who else in the league can catch as many games as he does?" — Pittsburgh manager Chuck Tanner on St. Louis catcher Ted Simmons, 1978

Mike Piazza was a great batting catcher (0.300+ career hitter, ROY, 12 time all-star) who wasn't good defensively. Will he be a HOFer?

Rob
:)

After you guys vote out Maz, I would use my vote to bounce Blyleven and put Bill back in. Maz was an elite player on defense, and that counts for something sometimes. If you won't let me do that, I'd drop Chick Hafey and add Larry Doyle.

Simmons had a subpar fielding percentage, but his "caught stealing" percentage was just barely below Carter. As I've said before, it's a total shaft job. Playing for mostly crappy Cardinal teams of the 70's and then with the Brewers really hurt him, even with the Brewers going to the series in '82.

Four More in,Two out
 

Out: Elmer Flick What kind of name is that for a HOFer?

Jim Rice Erase one outstanding season (1976) and here's an ordinary player/DH who worked his way up the voting ladder. If one season gets you in, make way for Norm Cash. In mainly because the Boston crowd got what it wanted. Again.

In: Bill Madlock -- Lifetime .305 hitter, four batting championships

Al Oliver -- A batting championship, lifetime .303 hitter and 2700 hits.

Dale Murphy -- Dominant NL player in the '80s. Two MVPs, back to back. 398 homers Low overall average due to hanging on too long.

All three played for some bad (though not terrible) teams, out of the NY _ Boston corridor. And one who didn't ...

Gil Hodges On a team that featured some exceptional ballplayers (e.g. Reese, Robinson, Campy, Newk, Snider), Hodges was the one that nobody playing the Bums wanted to see in a clutch at bat. Managed the sorry Mets to a World Championship. And a guy who played the game the way it ought to be played, and lived his life the same way. The Hall ought to join him!

Im going with my heart over my head, but I'd put in Will Clark. :) If nothing else, I would have loved to see him last more than just one year on the ballot. He meant sooooo much to the city of SF and Giants fans.

And Ive only browsed through this thread, but I expected to see more comments for Ron Santo (where are the diehard Cubie fans?)

I will. Besides being rookie of the year and 3 batting championships, from 1964-71 he was in the top 10 in slugging percentage every single year. He was fast, a great outfielder and possessed a rifle arm. He is the poor man's Roberto Clemente. He tore up his knees but continued to play at a high rate and was twice runner up to the AL MVP and finished in the Top 10 several times.
It boggles the mind that Chick Hafey is in and Tony O is not. In a poll about 10 years ago of the top American league pitchers of the era, the majority voted Oliva as the most feared hitter in the AL in the 60's.

300 wins means a pitcher is a lock for Cooperstown but if you look at the body of work and how they performed in big games, I would take Jack Morris over Don Sutton any day of the week. He lead the AL in wins twice and finished 2nd twice. His stats compare almost identically with Amos Rusie, Red Ruffing, Burleigh Grimes and Jim Bunning, all HOFers. He pitched on some bad teams but was always a terror on the mound.

I liked Morris too, but you have to figure those ERA stats from 1989-1994 had to hurt his chances drastically.

1989 - 4.86
1990 - 4.51
1991 - 3.43 (not bad at all)
1992 - 4.04
1993 - 6.19
1994 - 5.60

Career ERA of 3.90 doesn't tell the story of his dominance in the 1980's, but I am sure it has kept him out of the hall.

His big year was actually 1978, and Rice was far btter than just that one season. In 75 he had similar stats to Lynn .309/22/102 vs .331/21/105 but got hurt late in the year and missed the postseason.
During a good part of his career he was an impressive hitter, a couple homers he hit that I saw in person left the park quicker than any I've seen. And he's one of the very few to get one out of fenway to the right of the flagpole.

One thing that gets missed is that his last 3 years or so he had vision problems, but was too stubborn to wear glasses. After finally getting a pair after taking a eating in the press about how he needed them, they made fun of how they looked (yeah, the ones he picked were a poor choice) So he stopped wearing them.

He suffered in HOF balloting because he wasn't all that media friendly. And like it or not, if a guy is borderline in any way it comes down to a popularity with the press contest. He took a lot of knocks for being a bad fielder - Who isn't a bad fielder in Fenways LF?- and for grounding into far too many doubleplays. But by the middle part of his career, he was an ok if not great fielder, and while he's 6th all time in GIDP he's in some excellent company there. http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...P_career.shtml
He was also one of at least 3 players that were treated horribly by the owners in 89-90 and his reaction to being disinvited to spring training- basically being cut before the season ended - didn't win any friends witht he press either.

A quote from wikipedia sums it up nicely "Rice could hit for both power and average, and currently only nine other retired players rank ahead of him in both career home runs and batting average: Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams"

Steve B

Wow. I still don't get the hate Jim Rice gets and I'm a Yankees fan.

..............and then you throw in Bill Madlock because of the batting titles?

Rice had almost as high of a lifetime batting average, finished top 5 in the MVP voting six times. HR leader 3 times, RBI leader twice, 4 seasons of 200 or more hits.

Rice was a very competent Left Fielder, especially when he got a chance to do it every day after Yaz retired. He's 3rd All-Time in assists from a Left Fielder since they started tracking it, behind only Bonds and Yaz.

Madlock never finished in the top 5 MVP. Never had 200 hits. Not even close, which is shocking for a 4-time batting title winner. Never had 100 RBI's, never had 100 Runs scored. Guy was barely an everyday player. :confused:

Madlock was barely an everyday player? Huh? Twice with over 600 PA's, 8 times with over 500 PA's, and 4 times with over 400 PA's. That's quite a slacker.

I think I made my point pretty clear even if I was a little dramatic in saying it. You'd put him in the HOF over Jim Rice because he had over 600 plate appearances a couple times?

The guy won 4 batting titles, barely walked and never had even close to 200 hits in a single season, and was rarely ever considered in the MVP voting.

Not to denigrate Madlock as he was obviously a fantastic contact hitter with a little bit of pop, but he is nowhere in Rice's league.

I'm just tired of this anti-Jim Rice bias that seems to have no basis in reality for anybody who actually watched him play on a regular basis.

People throw out his lifetime accumulated stats for a guy with a relatively shortened career and then throw out a name like Bill Madlock (maybe not the same people, but it's just as headscratching) as more deserving.................somebody whose overall stats don't hold a candle to Rice's.

Was Madlock a part-time player? He played over 140 games a grand total of 4 times in his entire career. Whether it was because of injuries or not having the DH to fall back on, what's it matter?

Rice was thought of highly enough in his era to earn 6, Top 5 MVP finishes despite being pretty despised by the press. Norm Cash, one year wonder..............I think not.

I have to agree Bill Madlock was a nice player, but not anywhere close to Jim Rice.

All this discussion about Jim Rice intrigued me, so I hunted down a few statistics. I'll preface this by saying I was perfectly happy to see Rice enter the Hall, and while I'm a born and raised Giants' fan, I've always liked the Sox.

I've always considered lifetime road statistics as a pretty good indicator of a player's true abilities, 'cause lets face it, there are certain parks that are/were ridiculously hitter friendly (Coors Field, The Metrodome, Fenway, etc.).

So here are the lifetime ROAD STATS of Jim Rice alongside several players who had very good careers, but aren't often mentioned as being Hall of Fame worthy.

Name....................AB HR RBI AVG OBP SLG

Jim Rice...............4150 174 649 .277 .330 .459
Jack Clark............4198 185 614 .266 .377 .480
Boog Powell.........3393 189 637 .266 .360 .477
Rocky Colavito.....3343 181 581 .271 .358 .489
George Foster......3568 164 602 .279 .338 .449
Frank Howard......3268 196 534 .266 .344 .491
Matt Williams.......3558 194 633 .269 .315 .491
Dick Allen............3185 168 540 .290 .372 .519
Joe Adcock...........2996 187 553 .278 .340 .526

And damn this message board for scrunching up all those statistics I laboriously typed out.

Sorry, but why is Jim Rice the only player who does or does not get into the Hall based on "Road" statistics?

This isn't the first time I've seen this argument........and it's always based around Jim Rice for some reason.

Lots of players are more comfortable at home then they are on the road. Fenway Park and Coors Field shouldn't even be uttered in the same breath, regardless of Rice's prowess at home.

Madlock was a regular except for his rookie year and his last year, when he had 350 at bats. He was a fine fielder, a great baserunner, and a line drive hitter with pop. Four batting titles should be a ticket to the hall. And he did all this hitting in the National League, which used to be a lot tougher than hitting in the American League. I saw him play a lot, and my observations and his stats both tell me that he ought to get more attention. In addition, I should say that I get to see him every couple of weeks, since he gives lessons to kids at the local batting cages, and he is about the nicest guy I've ever met.