Not if you shift all the risk onto the consignors.

mastro/legendary has had plenty of opportunity to pay their consignors. They choose not to. And it stinks.

This explains why, despite some collectors' applauding of the practice in the names of quick shipping and good customer service, I never thought it such a great idea for an auction house to ship winnings before receiving payment.

isn't this....
 

...what Madoff got 150 years for?

T206collector
 

I am far from a Mastro apologist but Madoff ruined hundreds, if not thousands, of folks financial futures. I doubt Mastro has ruined 1 financial future. Not quite the same. Punishments generally do fit crimes.

Um...where do I start on this one?

Jeff
 

Please name all of the people, other than maybe internal people (which I doubt too), who Mastro Auctions ruined their financial futures? You may start with the letter "A". I know the starting letter is kind of difficult to figure out. That's my 'ole community college kicking in for ya'!!

Leon, first, if you're 'far from a Mastro apologist' I'd like to see someone who's a real Mastro apologist. Second, I wasn't aware that the complete ruination of someone's financial future is the requirement that needs to be hit before any scorn can be heaped on thieves. Perhaps if you were a victim of Mastro you'd feel differently, right? Plus it's not like you're privy to the information as to who was ripped off and how much, right?

Finally, no one -- including Paul -- suggested that Mastro et al. were as bad as Madoff. Paul simply noted that the theory of robbing Peter to pay Paul was apparently in play in both scenarios.

And finally: why do you come down harder on a BST guy who didn't make good on a $20 deal than Mastro? In both sets of circumstances you've heard of allegations of fraud second-hand. I would think that you'd react quite differently considering that a) you're more likely a victim of Mastro; and b) one person/entity has caused major damage to your beloved hobby.

Jeff
 

Ok I am an apologist. (just for you). Who said anyone has to be completely ruined to get scorned? You are starting a tale that should be addressed as "Once upon a time". You really do have a great embellishment about your prose. Heck, I might be a victim of Mastro, I dunno....I don't need to continually repeat what I told O'keefe last year, you can google it. I am only privy to the few emails I got from a post on this board as to who is owed money. So, no I am not privy to the billions you are insinuating that Mastro Auctions ripped people off for. Maybe that is in the 2nd chapter of your fairy tale?

No doubt there is a similarity whenever someone gets defrauded in some way. We can all use our imaginations almost as much you do.

As for me coming down harder on a $20 deal on the BST than Mastro? That must be the 3rd chapter of your fairly tale. I know a good publisher....just keep talking.....

Form of Wrong vs. Total Damages
 

Exactly. I was reading the entirety of this thread this morning and it seems to me -- a disinterested 3rd party -- that people are alleging a pyramid scheme of sorts. All seemed well and good when the money was coming in from the auctions. But when the money stopped coming in and the consignors wanted to get paid, well that's when the trouble started. It is eerily similar, based on the facts reported in this thread, was my only point.

Paul
 

In this respect I am in full agreement.

Leon, where did I suggest that Mastro was responsible for billions in fraud? Of course I never said or suggested such a thing. As for the rest of your post(s) all I can say is that I think you doth protest too much. And I really cannot figure out why but with all respect it does look suspicious. And take this from a friend who has supported you through thick and thin on this board -- it looks suspicious.

Jeff
 

I can't really help the way you feel. You are very consistent in your rhetoric though. I think we might have to go "Tacky" on ya' :). Have a good one...I hope you fare better in court.

Leon, you might be the only one who hasn't noticed that I fared pretty well on this issue in this thread.

I would like to understand how Leon attributed the 'billions' number to anything Jeff said? (unless it was edited out / and I didn't see it).

I don't see anything that would suggest anyone was talking about billions.



And....
I've been around people (in my own industry) who have owed a whole bunch of money, and decided to try to escape the debts and other trouble by shutting down one company and opening up in a new name.

I find that type of action deplorable.
And I always wondered how anyone could do business with that 'new' entity.

I hope that is not the case here, and I hope the right thing is done by all who are owed money.

Try this at the National...

If you want any dealer (Leon included...be careful if Scott sharing his table:)) to understand the feeling that the consignors are feeling currently...just walk up to their table with a friend, ask to see a card, take card and hand to friend, have friend walk away, tell dealer that you will pay him for the card when your friend finally pays you and you do not know when that will be.

I promise you that the dealer will feel robbed, scream, call security, or just beat your ass...the people who dismiss this are just not living in the real world. Mastro/Legendary are nothing more than thieves.

Joshua

Now if you want to talk economic stability, think Peter Luger's...been serving great steaks at the same location since 1887!:)

Joe
 

I was trying to embellish as much as Jeff did but couldn't quite get to that level. Everyone should get every nickel they are owed. It would be idiocy to think otherwise. *I never defended Mastro, as Jeff stated, I only said they didn't rise to the Madoff level. You and/or Jeff can continue arguing. I am done.

151 years!!! :D

Leon...you've got a blind spot, a tin ear when it comes to your friends at Mastro/Legendary. Try to be objective. You've even previously said that if you found out they ripped you off you wouldn't be mad as long as you were not singled out for fraud. That kind of sounds insane, no?

Jeff
 

Where did your D322 Wagner come from, you know the one that was over 25k?

To your question.....Yes, if I was not personally targeted then I would be less upset, but still upset, at being shilled. I am sure that is a very difficult point for you to comprehend though. Maybe you need to take a deep breath sometime....You are turning kind of blue.


If a person you knew, came into your home and stole something from you, would you be as upset with a stranger as you would be with them?


take care

Leon, if I only bid in auctions in which I was sure I wasn't getting defrauded, I wouldn't be buying many cards. As such, I would only buy a card from Mastro if I felt comfortable that the price was fair. Regarding the Tip Top Wagner, I got it for 17K less than the final "price" in Goodwin's auction a year or so ago. Finally, your bringing up the card I bought from Mastro is akin to blaming the victim for a crime. No one deserves to be defrauded, period.

Finally, I would be more upset if a trusted friend ripped me off than if a stranger did. I think many people feel this way -- including Bernie Madoff's childhood friends. I suspect you, Doug and Bill probably differ with the rest of us on this one.

Jeff
 

That has to be your worst defense of one of your positions ever on this board. I will rest my case if that's all ya' got. :rolleyes:

Whatever you say, Leon, whatever you say. :)

Jeff's post illustrates why it is so difficult to control shill bidding, card alteration, etc. -- if they have a card we want, we look the other way and rationalize.

"I know this crack is bad for you, but I can quit anytime I want, really."

+1

Yes, it's all my fault. If only I had stopped bidding on Mastro auctions they would have stopped shill bidding and other frauds. Perhaps I should be indicted too as a co-conspirator?

Jeff there you go knocking down a straw man again. :) You are but one example of a phenomenon; thus the "we".

Peter, stop setting up strawmen and I'll stop knocking them down. :)

6 minute increments
 

Lots of 6 minute increments being wasted here when they can be billed out! Or are they?

Multitasking. :)

Thought it was 15 and 30 minute increments? Do lawyers still bill out in 6 minute increments?

A consignor sends a card to Mastro
Mastro auctions the card
Mastro ships the card to the buyer
Mastro doesn't pay the consignor
The new owner of the card just auctioned it on ebay
The new new owner now has the card
Mastro continues to not pay the consignor


This completely sucks. While its funny to watch the apologists in this thread try to find ways to justify, explain and/or lessen the impact of mastro/legendary's actions -- it isn't one bit funny what mastro/legendary is doing to the consignors or what they are doing to the hobby.

Shame on mastro/legendary.

I've said it before, there is no new owner and there is no new new owner. Until the consignor gets paid, he is still the owner. As such, the consignor ultimately has little risk (outside of the payment delay and such) since if he doesn't get paid he legally gets his card(s) back. Remember, until he gets paid it's still a consignment.

I am not sure I get your point. The consignor doesn't have the card in hand. Mastro shipped it to the winner. The winner just sold it on ebay, and shipped it to the ebay-winner.

The consignor doesn't have the cash, and doesn't have the card. Where is there little risk? Mastro can't send him the card back, they have already sold it to someone else. That someone else has since sold the card?

Who is going to go get the card from the ebay buyer?

This isn't a hypothetical scenario. It just happened. The consignor had to watch his card sell on ebay within the last couple of weeks, and hasn't been paid since February.

I am sure this consignor feels that he is in a little risk situation. Probably not worried at all.

He needs to put in a legal claim for return of his consignment.

To take Brian's point further: What happens if, after I pay for a card that I bought in a Mastro auction, I destroy it (or, more realistically, it accidentally gets destroyed)?

If the answer is that I have to make restitution of the selling price to the original consignor -- in effect paying for the card twice, once to Mastro and again to the consignor -- then you might want to try to come up with something better.

Whenever I am making legal claims, I always think to myself -- no risk at all, its just a little payment delay & such...

Think of it this way. When has the "Title" to the card transferred from the consignor. Answer: It hasn't.

Yes, the buyer is at risk.

Here's an example that's more common, but very similar. My car is worth $10,000. I sell it to you for that price and give you the car. I don't pay off the bank for the loan on the car. A couple months later you get a knock on the door from the bank asking for their car back. Guess who gets the car?

I should add a link proving this.

That example isn't similar at all. Unlike in a consignor/auctioneer relationship, the bank didn't authorize you to sell the car on its behalf.

This isn't worth debating with you, simply because your points and assumptions have little to no merit. I'll let someone else continue this lesson in frustration.

Brian, can you provide a link to the ebay auction? I wonder did the ebay seller pay for the card or is he one of the fellows who got his stuff from Mastro without paying?

It isn't that simple, Egbeachley
 

I had one of these cases several years ago. Because the consignor parted with the card knowingly at the outset but the auctioneer embezzled the proceeds, title may transfer. It depends on two factors: (1) which state law is applicable to the transaction and (2) which version of the Uniform Commercial Code was enacted by that state. Some states allow an item obtained under false pretenses to be sold to a bona fide (unwitting) purchaser; some do not. Assuming that the initial transaction could be deemed a transaction under false pretenses--which it may well be since Mastro plainly was in deep doo-doo at the time of the February auction since it ceased ops in early March--whether title transfers has to be analyzed as above.

damn, Joshua, that is funny stuff
 

I'm picturing Kit Young easing his fat behind out of the lounge chair and waddling down the aisle after the second guy...

Be nice to Kit Adam and what are you doing up so early??

Truth, Justice and The American Way
 

We have long stated

Trust no one
Double check everyone


It is disappointing (and criminal) that consignors have not been paid
by certain auction houses.

Given the time, energy and money that long-time collectors have invested
in a hobby, when it is time to sell, it is imperative that said collectors
are treated with dignity and respect.

The Board should dedicate all its efforts to removing any auction houses and/or dealers who violate their legal and moral obligation to the collecting community.

The Board should publish a list of auction houses that do not pay on terms and distribute at the National. And their practices should be reported to the Post Office, FBI and local law enforcement.

Perhaps there is a few extra rooms in Mr. Madoff's prison to house hobby thieves. Just think by the time they get out their 2009 Topps cards will be more than 100 years old. Perhaps, then they can pay their debts.
In the interim, it is time to severely punish the hobby thieves.

Bruce lives!

Bruce's post does not include the universally recognized "America's Toughest Want List" byline...has it been retired?:confused:

Thanks Rich...just a typo

Barry; I'm sooo disappointed in you
 

Has it be retired?

I guess grammar is taking off for the three-day weekend as well :p

Barry -- I know buddy -- was just giving you a hard time; after all; due to my and my wife's surgeries this week -- we've had the M-I-L over as a guest and you can imagine how that goes on a full time basis :)

Rich