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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Scott, I want to judge you because you like cockfighting. Consider yourself judged. <br /><br />And with a straight face can you state that my comments about race were insulting toward a race? Or was I just making a point?<br /><br />Finally, no one is suggesting you don't have a right to judge Leon. The man simply asked that you not bring up his very distant past in a public forum. Isn't he entitled to that?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I only have to say you are wrong again my friend. Jay called me when he posted this today as he thought it was funny and wanted to see what I thought. When I told him what you do he couldn't believe it. He had absolutely no idea. There is no conspiracy and you are your own worst enemy.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>dodging your question. You are correct about the gambling it seems. That is never brought up, as it is too hard for a prosecutor to prove I guess. Again, the only time I know of anyone being found guilty of anything to do with cockfighting in VA was from the article you had shown - and the only persons convicted of anything were the people running the arena (for charging an admission to a cockfighting event).<br /><br />Just as some of you cannot understand why anyone would participate in a cockfighting event, I cannot understand why you feel this way. Does this mean I am a bad person, I don't think so. I have never commited a crime. I have never been found guilty of anything other than a couple of traffic tickets in my life. Some of you might have taken what I said about Leon as an attack and I can understand. I was only trying to show the double standards that seem to go on here within the Net 54 "clique". Some of you attack me b/c of doing something that is legal, or at the worst a misdemeanor (and only then if one gambles - you don't have to gamble when you fight chickens, b/c the arena gives the winner(s) a cash prize - only spectators usually gamble), and defend someone else who was convicted of a felony. I simply do NOT understand the logic behind that! Again, I was NOT accusing Jeff L. of anything. However, through life, I have learned that the people who jump in and attack someone else for something they do, usually have something to hide themselves. This may or may not be the case in Jeff's situation - I don't know. I have only tried to defend myself with examples. Some of you have accused me of attacks by those examples I gave. If that is how you see it, then fine. However, I sincerely did not mean to attack anyone - I was simply showing a great example of the double standards here. I know of nowhere else a person NOT commiting and never convicted of a crime can be thought of as being morally worse than a person convicted of a felony!

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>F- it. Never mind.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I've never been to a cockfight before so someone is going to have to set the stage for me...Is there an arena? Do they sell like hotdogs and cokes? Popcorn? Do you think my 6 year old would enjoy coming to the fights with me? Does the winning cock get a belt that he can wear around when he's not fighting? Is there a souvenir stand where I can get a pennant or a bobblehead of my favorite cock?

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>I don't think Cock bobbleheads would sell too well.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>ROLMAO<br /><br />edited to add...Eric- that was almost as good as Dan's comments

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>dan and eric, <br /><br />i bet ebay has one...

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Yeah, Mark...I don't even want to try to type that into an ebay search. Who knows what would show up.

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnEO09yTBw" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnEO09yTBw</a>

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Here is one straight from the souvenir stand:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.cafepress.com/buy/penis/-/pv_design_details/pg_1/id_17574356/opt_/fpt_/c_360/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cafepress.com/buy/penis/-/pv_design_details/pg_1/id_17574356/opt_/fpt_/c_360/</a>

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>interesting segue.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>"I happen to like it - that is my choice. If you want to judge me b/c I like cockfighting, that is fine as well."<br /><br />No, it's not that simple. See, here's the difference. Consider the following:<br /><br /> - I happen to like smoking pot - that's my choice.<br /><br /> - I happen to like jumping out of airplanes with a parachute strapped to my back - that's my choice.<br /><br /> - I happen to like playing big stakes poker with my buddies - that's my choice.<br /><br /> - I happen to like kiddie porn - that's my choice.<br /><br /> - I happen to like playing pick-up basketball - that's my choice.<br /><br /> - I happen to like being in an underground fight club - that's my choice.<br /><br />They are all entertainment. They are all individual choices for entertainment. But do you see which one is different? Do you see which one doesn't belong? Do you see why?<br /><br />Because they all involve adult choices on all sides except one. When the activity involves a living being that does not have the mental or emotional capacity to choose to be involved, the line has been crossed. <br /><br />I would not judge anyone involved in any one of the past-times above, except the fourth one. And I will judge the living he11 out of that person and never think twice about it. Just as I will judge the living he11 out of anyone that chooses the suffering of animals as entertainment. And never think twice about it.<br /><br />Joann <br /><br />ETA: And I have nothing to hide.

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Holy Crap. That's funny Cat and Jay.<br /><br />And as far as looking for "Cock" Bobbleheads on ebay, well I gave in <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/crazylocomerk/MISC/80b4_12.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>calleocho</b><p>I grew up in Cuba and cock fighting was quite common.<br /><br />I was too young to be in the fights but i got too see a lot of practice rounds etc...( very little blood and fairly short fights, most of the time one chicken would just run around and give up LOL its really not that dramatic )<br /><br />The animals would usually ended up blind or severely wounded...but even then the owners would never eat them ..( they are very hard to chew ...maybe you could make soup?... but mostly they would let them live out of respect)<br /><br />anyways ...I could care less one way or another if its legal or not ...its not like i think about how my chicken ended up in my plate.<br /><br />actually if i had to choose between seeing a cock fight vs a boxing match I might see the chickens ...

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Hey as long as they let them live out of "respect" after being blinded or otherwise injured it's all good.

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Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>Prewar baseball cards?

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Not here Ken....but if you go over to the Net 54 Cock Fighting Forum they are talking cards there tonight. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Too funny Dave!

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"Some of you attack me b/c of doing something that is legal, or at the worst a misdemeanor (and only then if one gambles - you don't have to gamble when you fight chickens, b/c the arena gives the winner(s) a cash prize - only spectators usually gamble)"<br /><br />I would take a look at the statute again:<br /><br />"Any person engaging in the fighting of cocks or other animals, except dogs, for money, prize or anything of value or betting or wagering money or anything of value on the result of such fight, shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor."<br /><br />Im not giving legal advice, but as I read that sentence, you are guilty of a misdemeanor if you offer the winner money, a cash prize or anything else of value. Gambling is just one illegal activity associated with cock fights.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>the famous eating contests - hotdogs and otherwise on ESPN. People consider these eating sports a "sport". Animals have to be killed to make the hotdogs (although I don't want to guess which animal parts are in them) and other meats are involved that come from animals in other eating contests. Again, the animals go to a slaughter house and have a ZERO percent chance of surviving to make these hotdogs for these eating contests (and food is NOT consumed for survival in these contests, so that cannot be an argument). In a cockfight, again, the rooster is left with his destiny in his hands and is doing something that comes natural to him in a more humane way than in the wild if they fought naturally until death.<br /><br />If someone really cares enough about a chicken that they do not want to see one killed, then you would have to be a strict vegetarian or you would simply he a hypocrit - there is no way around it.<br /><br />I am in the minority here on this issue, there is no doubt. That is fine. I still will never believe that cockfighting is so serious that one would judge me as being a worse person than someone who sold drugs - never!

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>joann,<br />your first one is a federal violation in all fifty states...some states including california allow it for medical reasons but federal law overrides state law and just recently as today have been enforcing it in los angeles county...dea has been conducting raids up the "ying yang"<br /><br />eric, is that a bobblehead or just a statue??? too funny!

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>to breed - producing more chickens that hopefully will be as good as the winner that is kept. BTW - they do live until a natural death a lot of times when used for brood foul - well over ten years. Compare this to an average age of one year or less for chickens raised for consumption and cockfighting might even look a little less cruel to some.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, perhaps to Charlie Manson.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Anthony - I intentionally chose three "benign" activities that are illegal in many jurisdictions to make the point that it's not the legality that's at issue with me - it's the involvement of a being that did not, and could not, choose to participate.<br /><br />Scott - food is different. Food is not entertainment. For what it's worth, I am not a vegetarian, but I do try as much as possible to buy cage-free organic eggs, range beef, etc, because the quality of life of the animal is important to me. The fact that the animal dies is in the mix, but there is still far less suffering, and it's not just for entertainment.<br /><br />On the hot dog eating contests, I don't think it's quite the same. The animal didn't suffer for entertainment. But on the other hand, I also think that it's not that far removed from using frozen turkeys for bowling in that although the animal didn't suffer, it did die for what amounts to entertainment. So in the future I will consider some eating contests equally odious to dogfighting or cockfighting.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />It's a bobblehead. It's the Richmond Rowdy Rooster. This was given away at Richmond Rooster home games back in the 50's (Richmond, Indiana). They later moved to Traverse City, Michigan and became the Beach Bums of today.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />Earlier quote: "This is why people fight them and gamble on the chickens-to help recoup some of the money spent"<br /><br /> Later quote: " you don't have to gamble when you fight chickens, b/c the arena gives the winner(s) a cash prize - only spectators usually gamble"<br /><br />I don't think I'm the only one who would see a contradiction here.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Scott, you can try to paint a rosy picture if you want, but you are only making yourself look worse here. I mean thanks for the honesty and all, but what you are doing is despicable any way you look at it.<br /><br />I can't believe that ANYONE fights chickens for the "Sport" of it. People do it for only one of two reasons....1) they are gambling, and/or 2) they are sick. Just doing a cursory google search on cockfighting shows that these events are typically a meeting of the worst society has to offer.

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>did tbob ever weigh in with the answer to the original question???

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>some don't. <br /><br />Jeff - Charles Manson always reminded me of someone who would belong to PETA.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Yes. PETA is made up of psychotic spree killers whereas cockfight proponents are usually sunday school teachers and school marms.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Man...they are talking about E94's over on the Net54 Cock Fighting Forum...its great, you guys should stop in! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>calleocho</b><p>its really not that horrible ...they fight for a little while everyone goes insane ...tons of money everywhere...two or three minutes of screaming etc...<br /><br />I always liked baseball best<br /><br /><br />The owners do take a lot of pride with their animals ...they feed the best stuff...everything they get is top of the line...like glorified gladiators ...sort of ...lol<br /><br />I have seen grown men cry when they lose a chicken in a fight...they get very attached.<br /><br />i wouldnt get too upset about a chicken dying ..even if it dies with some amount of cruelty.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Dave, I would go over there, but I really hate it when they go off topic like that.

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Regardless of how you feel about this subject matter PETA people are kooks. They are borderline extremists.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Kook /= Psycho killer.<br /><br />Please remember that...and I think the PETA people are kooks too. Not nearly as kooky as someone who gets a thrill out of pitting animals against one another though.

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Posted By: <b>marty quinn</b><p>hey dan bretta, holy cow i never laughed so hard with your last post...lol..i"m still laughing....lol what happened to proof reading?? lol...

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Posted By: <b>marty quinn</b><p>sorry not your last post dan, but this one...............Hey as long as they let them live out of "respect" after being blinded or otherwise injured it's all good

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Personally, I always thought drug dealers were referred to as having this title. Also, I have to admit I have never had anyone from a cockfight steal money from me. I have had people steal money from me in Vintage Cards - does that mean that Vintage Card Collectors are worse than the worst people in society? The most honest people I have ever met have been at the cockfights. It also gave me the chance to meet Roy Jones Jr., who also is a cockfighter.<br /><br />Yeh, I am honest, I admitted to participating in cockfighting. If you think bad of me for that, that is fine as well. Again, there are far worse things going on - even by board members here believe it or not. I am man enough to admit what I do and defend it. Again, I have no criminal record. However, if a handful of you want to compare me to Charles Manson for participating in cockfighting, then I really don't care, as that TRULY says more about yourself than it does me. Again, there are a few people on here casting stones. I sincerely doubt any of you are without sin yourselves. Again, I am honest enough to admit what I do and defend it.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not sure you get it but I don't condone what I did in 1984, nor has anyone else. I got what I deserved. There is nothing to defend. If I were still doing it today then I would agree you have something on me. As it is....you are your own worst enemy. Keep jabbering....

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Scott, didn't you in turn "Teach someone a lesson" by stealing from them? As I understand you eventually made good on that deal, but I'm not going to pretend to know everything that happened there. I don't think you're equivalent to Charlie Manson by any means, but I seriously hope you don't have children and that you aren't passing along this "pastime" to anyone. Someday I also hope you regain your soul.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>I am NOT trying to paint a rosy picture of cockfighting. It is definitely a sport that is NOT for everyone and one chicken does get killed in a fight. However, I was trying to explain it is not as bad as the PETA heads make it out to be. <br /><br />If one truly was against cockfighting b/c of the animals' rights, then one would have to be against hunting, fishing, eating meat - anything involving an animal being killed. These chickens, like a smart member stated, really are taken great care of - probably better care than some PETA heads take of their children! The BIG difference in cockfighting and hunting, fishing, or killing an animal for food (slaughter houses), is that the chicken is killed by another chicken - NOT a person!

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>So how does everyone feel about animal testing for the development of pharmaceutical drugs for the greater good? Is this unethical? These animals are bread for the sole purpose of being test subjects. Many pharma companies actually own their own breeding facilities to supply the animals for this.

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>I spend a lot of time in Mexico (mostly Baja). Cock Fighting is common there too. I have never been to one, but commonly heard about them. I was amazed to find out how well attended the Bull Fights are. Bull Fights are for the elite of their society. Again, I have never been to a Bull Fight but have been invited and understand the event to a minimal extent. I am not apposed to going to a Bull Fight but I do think it would be boring. Their Bull Fighters are like heros. I have never heard any opposition to either of the these events down there.<br /><br />What do you think? Is the entire Mexican society barbaric?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Honestly, I have watched a few bull fights...they make me want to cry....

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>No. The big difference is that one is entertainment, not food.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Leon:<br /><br />Where did you see them?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Scott, taking this further would only be adding insult to injury so out of "respect" for you I will let you live to post another day. Good Night!

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>If I stole from someone to teach them a lesson as you put it, then made good, that would NOT be stealing! Stealing is like when Brian Daniels stole from me and NEVER made good on it. And, yes, I was pissed that Leon deleted my posts regarding Daniels stealing from me and locked the thread. I put a stop payment on a check I sent him for a card to show him it doesn't feel good. I also paid Leon back in full and even paid to have a negative feedback taken away on eBay I gave him. I am even sure if you ask Leon, he will say I did NOT steal from him. Leon got his money where I put a stop payment on his check.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Your last couple of posts have been nothing short of personal attacks on me - you know, like you were saying I was attacking Leon personally? I guess with you Dan, it really is the pot calling the kettle black? No need to quit posting out of respect for me - heck, you have probably turned a few people reading this thread to my side of the argument by now!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Joann - I hate to correct you, but most hunters and fishermen do so for sport and entertainment - NOT food!