To me this is very interesting. If he was called out on the last play and replay showed he should be safe, there would not even be a discussion of overturing the perfect game.

Do you genuinely think last night's play was routine? I don't.

well, since you asked
 

For a professional this was a routine play.....now, the circumstance was far from routine but I do think it was a fairly routine play that we see hundreds of times a season. (if I were to watch hundreds of plays ;))

I couldn't have said it better myself. Absolutey correct.

I voted Yes, that the call should be overturned, but I clicked it with my eyes closed, because I do agree that it would be setting a dangerous precedent.

But Leon- the circumstances are exactly what I am talking about. To again use the NFL as an example: it is said that there is offensive holding on nearly every play from scrimmage. Does even one person believe that therefore every play should be reviewed? No, it would kill the game. But the league was able to implement a review that works efficiently and helps get critical calls right. That call last night was critical.

There are dozens of errors made every day in the major leagues, and thousands in the course of a season. An error is a routine outcome as a result of a batted ball. But would you say Bill Buckner's misplay of Mookie's ground ball was a routine play? No, it was a monumental play. Not all plays that look the same are equal.

Let me throw this into the mix...how about he add the effort to the official list of perfect games in the same way Ernie Shore's perfect game is...for the two people on this board who do not know, Ruth started the game, walked the first batter and was ejected for arguing with the ump. Shore entered the game, the batter was caught stealing and he retired the next 26. He is generally credited with a perfect game.

For what it is worth, he will probably have more enduring and marketable fame from this than if he had pitched the perfect game. He and Joyce will be linked like Branca/Thompson or Buckner/Wilson...probably can make a few dollars off dual autograph appearances for years to come.

I think having 3 of the 21 perfect games in history occur within a month is far from routine.

I think last night's game, and the play that should have ended it, were routine, only until the incorrect call was made. At that point, they ceased being routine.

I am all for getting things correct, and if that means correcting correctable errors, I am generally for it. If things had unfolded differently last night I might have felt differently. If the following batters had gotten hits and/or scored runs, I may have felt differently. But they didn't. That makes this the easiest of errors to correct. Batter is out. Game is over. Next guys AB doesn't count. Perfect game goes in the book. Apologize to the kid for ruining his celebration.


However, I feel that both sides of this argument have valid points. What isn't valid is saying that the Commissioner doesn't have the power to change it. He does. Whether he should or not is what's debatable.

? A lot of people feel angry about a lot of games, should they get reversed? I think the poise that the pitcher had was admirable. Through this mistake he was given the opportunity to show a great amount of character which will be remembered more than if the call had been right and he had pitched a perfect game.

Shore is NOT credited with a perfect game by MLB.

Shore came into the game as a relief pitcher. I never understood why he was ever credited with a perfect game, even before the rules were changed.

perhaps
 

One thing left out of all this is that if the 1st baseman had played his position and left the ball to the 2nd baseman we would not be debating this. So, imo Detroit did make an error?

So Jim & Barry....are you guys saying since it was going to be a perfect game, then we should throw everything else aside from the last 120 years of baseball and make this one exception?

So the only time we make an exception is when there is a close play on the last out of a potential perfect game? What about a no-hitter? What about a shutout? Where do you draw the line?

The human element is what is great about the game and we, as fans, have been pretty comfortable with that for over a century. It seems that some people would just assume have robots and computers making calls, "as long as they get the call correct" is all that some people care about.

What if it was a 3-2 count and he threw one right down the pipe that got called ball 4.......do you want to review balls and strikes with instant replay? No, but if it was going to be a perfect game then you do?

As for the commissioner having the power to do anything "that is in the best interest of MLB", well maybe you are right.....but I can't see how a commissioner can intercede and call a batter out a day later. Maybe he will, he's done dumber things before, but how do you think the Umpire's Association will feel about that? Jim Joyce has already publicly apologized...he got it wrong....he owned up to it. He is human.

Concerning Shore:

His most famous game occurred on June 23, 1917, against the Washington Senators in the first game of a doubleheader at Fenway Park. Ruth started the game, walking the first batter, Ray Morgan. As newspaper accounts of the time relate, the short-fused Ruth then engaged in a heated argument with apparently equally short-fused home plate umpire Brick Owens. Owens tossed Ruth out of the game, and the even more enraged Ruth then slugged the umpire a glancing blow before being taken off the field; the catcher was also ejected. Shore was recruited to pitch, and came in with very few warmup pitches. With a new pitcher and catcher, runner Morgan tried to steal but was thrown out. Shore then proceeded to retire the remaining 26 Senators without allowing a baserunner, earning a 4-0 Red Sox win. For many years the game was listed in record books as a "perfect game in relief," but officially it is scored as a no-hitter, shared (albeit unequally) by two pitchers. Following the game, Ruth paid a $100 fine, was suspended for ten games, and issued a public apology for his behavior.

I had missed/forgotten that it had been removed from the perfect game list.

Phil- I actually feel that last night's game is old business and it is too late to change it. But what I am suggesting is using last night as a wake-up call for baseball to address the need for a better way to do things, so that something like this can hopefully be avoided next time. Nothing wrong with trying to make improvements.

I hate to say it, but I voted YES too.

Instant replay would be good in certain situations.

I never suggested anything, one way or the other. I only commented on your thought that Selig did not have the power to change this. The Commissioner's powers are far reaching, although vague. He can do whatever he deems best for MLB.

Now when he runs into trouble is when he gets either side (owners or players union) ticked off. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

OK.....and what I am saying is how do you draw up a set of "instances" where we go to instant replay or booth review or something? In the NFL, NHL, NBA there are very few instances that need to be reviewed if you don't want to micro-manage every second of every game. Those games have a clock. MLB has every pitch and every play that could be scrutinized...it is not as fluid a game as the other 3 major sports.

So, how could you possibly come up with a list of instances for baseball that you could use instant replay.....I think it would be exhausting and discriminatory in nature. For example, close plays at homeplate only...then why not 3rd base or 2nd base. Only when a scoring play is affected? Well then last night wouldn't count. Only when a lead change is affected? Well then last night wouldn't count again.

I just really think that there are way too many plays that "could" be looked at during a major league baseball game that I feel it would almost be impossible to narrow down a list of instances.

Let's see if you can narrow it down (like the NFL did) to a reasonable size set of instances. Go ahead....

Overturned Call
 

I think this case hardly calls for any type of "precedent" to be set. I am sure there are others but George Brett's Pine Tar incident come to mind. Be that as it may--great post, but this seems like a very elemental decision. By all accounts the umpire made an honest mistake--Make the correct call and move on.
In basketball, you have reviews under a minute, hockey has reviews and so does football. It would take a few seconds to overturn a call like this--and with the amount of importance riding on this, how can you not?
I would rather lose a game with the correct call, than win one with an incorrect call.

I agree with Steve on both counts.
No way should it be reversed. It opens up a whole can of worms. Do we now reverse Denkinger's call in the WS? How about the horrible call on Maurer's foul ball that might have changed the entire playoffs between the Yankees and Twins?
The one thing that does bother me is that the ump, even though apologetic and contrite and admitting his mistake, violated an unwritten baseball rule which gives the pitcher the edge on a close call in a situation like this. I remember Larsen's 2 strike pitch in the WS which was in Dale Mitchell's eyes and was called a strike to preserve the perfect game. This wasn't even a close call. The ump blew a call the previous inning which changed a 1-0 game in to a 3-0 game and he isn't even talking about that one.
We don't need to open Pandora's Box. I feel sorry for the pitcher but don't take that one horrible step.

Phil- how baseball might implement a review would of course entail some thought. Perhaps it should be only allowed from the ninth inning on. Or maybe a manager is given say one challenge per game, and hope he hasn't used it by the time there are two outs in the ninth inning of a perfect game.

Frankly, I think the umps being allowed to review a home run call is arbitrary. Why is a disputed home run in the first inning any more important than a call at first base to end a perfect game? So it's already compromised. What if you have a disputed double or triple-why can't that be reviewed?

A small point but the Brett pine tar home run decision was overruled by Lee McPhail, American League President, not by the Commissioner. And although it was called a "rule interpretation" that is nonsense. Brett used too much pine tar. They measured it. It violated the rule. At that point, it was an illegal bat. Brett was justifiably called out. McPhail was wrong to overturn it. Brett reacted to being caught breaking the rules by behaving like a maniac. He should have been suspended in addition to being called out. A great contrast to the classy behavior of Galarraga who, unlike Brett, was the victim of a bad call. Sorry but I would not rely on the Brett decision to justify the Commissioner getting involved in this one. I hope umpires will always be part of the game. Would it be the same game we love if there was an electronic strike zone?

So Cleveland and Detroit have an afternoon game today, and Jim Joyce refused to take the day off and is umpiring behind home plate. But get this: Armando Galarraga brought out the line up card and presented it to Joyce, who at that moment proceeded to break out in tears.

There is an amazing story going on here that really is unique. And I also heard that the fans cheered Joyce when they easily could have called for his head.

Barry, I don't like the HR review either. Giving managers one challenge per game could work, but what are you allowed to challenge? See, there goes "the list" again of what a manager could challenge. Can he challenge balls or strikes? Balks? The phanton swipe on the double-play? Runner out of the baseline? Out of the batter's box.......it just goes on and on.

Well it doesn't go on and on if the rules are carefully spelled out. I guess I have a natural tendency to want to see things called correctly. I was heartbroken by last night's ending and just felt it was unfair, even if we all agree that bad calls are a part of the game.

Perfect Game
 

I agree with Barry...there does seem to be another story going on here. Both Galarraga and Joyce were classy in how they handled it both as it was happening and afterwards during the fallout. Joyce admitting he was wrong and apologizing and then having Galarraga change his attitude once Joyce had apologized in person. Both handled it in a classy manner.

Zach

That's what I am asking you.....do you think that you could come up with a black & white, defined list of instances that can be challenged? I don't think you can without including hundreds of instances, which is too much.

Barry, what would be your basic outline for acceptable plays that can be challenged?

wow
 

So no comments (yet) on the poll percentage. I am a bit surprised, based on the responses, that it's almost 50/50. I would have thought more folks would have voted that it shouldn't be overturned. :confused:

No -- It's Baseball.

The commissioner just ruled...the call stands (according to the Associated Press).

Phil- I'm not sure I should be the one to make that call, although I don't mind trying. I would certainly lean more towards reviewing controversial calls at the end of a game. I don't think what happens in the first inning is as critical as what happens in the ninth (and I admit even that is debatable). I would also permit a manager at least one challenge during the game, similar to what is allowed in the NFL. And I think there is nothing wrong for the umpires to make the decision that they feel in the best interest of the game they need to go to the videotape.

There is no question in my mind that after the call last night they would have taken the initiative to review it, if the rules allowed them. Yes, it would make these painfully interminable games even longer, and I hate that. But I would rather see an extra five minutes added to a game to avoid what happened last night.

And I spent maybe five minutes on this, it certainly needs more time and consideration.

Rick- according to what was announced on the Yankee game this afternoon, the commissioner is not rushing to judgment and will review the play in more detail. That includes interviewing people, whomever they may be. But that may not be the official word.

MLB Press Release/Statement
 

Selig played his cards right. As bad a call as it was, he backed the
umpires call. Here's MLB's official statemet from last night's game.
I see instant replay coming soon......

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releas...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

While I disagree with the commissioner's decision, I understand why he made the call and I agree with his right to make it. What I truly can't understand is why this clown is still the commissioner. The sooner baseball dumps Bud, the better ...

On any other day, baseball fans who want instant replay would be pointing to the horrible call late last night that gift wrapped the Mariners a 2-1 win over the Twins in extra innings due to a blown call on a 3rd out groundball which clearly made it to the shortstop covering for a forceout long before the runner arrived.
As far as Selig's statement, although I am glad he didn't reverse the call, for those of you who wanted it overturned, did you really think slick Bud would do it? Has he ever done one thing right as commissioner? Ever?

after hearing Joyce's apology, I am sure he would want it overturned....

but in hindsight, he was awarded an awfully nice Corvette convertible as a consolation prize!

i think too much time has passed and now the bad call must stand.

no reversal.

if you want to reverse calls, try replay, otherwise play with the rules that are in place.

Do you think Bud ever loses track of all committees he's formed to study MLB issues?

What Does Selig Do Exactly?
 

Mrs. Claypool: Mr. Driftwood, three months ago you promised to put me into society. In all that time, you've done nothing but draw a very hansome salary.
Driftwood: You think that's nothing, huh? How many men are drawing a handsome salary nowadays. Why you can count them on the fingers of one hand, my good woman.:p

Night at the Opera.:)

Correct, Barry
 

And I'm sure you understand the point of my drift.:)

evidence for instant replay in baseball!

Correct call, or desired outcome?
 

It was a really, really bad call - and everyone agrees. Is the call for "Selig to make it right" REALLY a desire to get the call correct, or is the desire to make sure the pitcher gets a Perfect Game (albeit, one that he deserved)?

Let's say conditions were the same as last night, the batter hits a ball which is fielded by the 1st baseman, who flips to the pitcher covering 1st. "Out!" calls the ump, and the celebration begins - a Perfect Game and the pitcher is carried off the field! Then someone looks at a replay which clearly shows that the runner was safe at first, and anyway, even though the pitcher had the ball in his glove, he never stepped on the bag.

Would there be a public outcry to change the call and get it correct? And take away a Perfect Game after the celebration? If not, why not? If the goal is to get it correct - and not to achieve a desired outcome - what is the difference in these two games?

I don't think the results of last night's game can be changed, unless we're ready to accept a change in the other direction.

Today, I had lunch with Braves' GM Frank Wren, who watched last nights' game. As he put it, "There were obviously no other runners on base, the batter was either safe at first (and not trying to go to second), or he was out (game over). Joyce made the call, but as soon as Leyland came out to question it, all that needed to be done was for the umpires to confer and come up with a definite answer. They didn't do that, and Joyce gets all the blame. All this could have been avoided it the umps had just talked to each other, but they didn't. What a shame." Derryl Cousins is the Crew Chief of that umpire crew, and I haven't heard his name mentioned once.

Tom- good points, and if it happened the other way, with a perfect game awarded because the ump missed the call, there would still have been a small outcry from the fans, but not on the national level it achieved. This story seemed to transcend baseball, and became a parable about how good sportsmanship is such a rare commodity in today's world. No question some unique things came out of it, but bottom line is a perfect game is a once in a lifetime achievement that few major leaguers have ever achieved. And a humble and not that well known pitcher had one and had it taken away.

I would just say that it wasn't such a bad call if you put yourself in Joyce's shoes. The ball never hit the meat of the glove to make the audible "whack". Instead, it bounced around a little bit. Without the sound to compare to, you go off of what you see, which isn't easy at all. So I disagree with the view that it was an easy call. He was clearly safe from the replay, but it was not such an easy call, in my opinion.

Also, I heard an umpire on the radio today say that umpires rarely conference over a first base call like that. One ump is in position, and the other umps hardly ever conference and overturn a call like that.

It was an easy call in the sense that Joyce never claimed he considered a bobble, and never considered a swipe foot tag that might have missed the base. He claimed he was convinced that the runner beat the throw. The call was gross incompetence.

also
 

BTW, I don't put that much stock in Joyce's contriteness, especially as he had little choice in t he face of the evidence. To me he can apologize until he's blue in the face, he should still be suspended. Please don't give me that everyone makes mistakes schtick. This was the final out of a ballgame, and a potential perfect game. His attention should have been as acute or morseo than any other time in the game. His job was simple, and he blew the call. There should be consequences, remorseful or not as he might be.

If you are in an important position for your company or, better still, your profession and, at the height of an important decision, you blow it, you should expect to be fired or disciplined in some fashion. Period. If you don't like the pressure of being in that position, find another line of work. Bottom line, you embarrassed the game. Man up and apologize--fine, you did. Now man up and take some punishment too.

I'm not saying the guy should be accosted in the streets, his kids ridiculed at school or his pension taken away, but that call was inexcusable and incompetent, and he should be penalized for it (BTW, he flat out blew another call in the 8th that led to 2 Tiger runs--is this guy horseblip or what?). Seems like some time off without pay might help him become more focused and disciplined, if not, move on and let someone else do the job.

For those who say Selig does NOT have the power to overturn the cal, I say BS!!!

The Commish has the power to ban guys for life (Jackson, Cicotte, Rose, etc).

The Commish has the power to overturn trades (Vida Blue to the Reds, other Oakland A's to different teams).

The Commish has the power to suspend All Star Games.

If the Commish can do all of those things, which can affect more than one person and more than one season then he can EASILY overturn a CORRECTABLE call.

David

For those who say the Pine Tar incident doesn't count. Well, yes it does.

Brett was reinstated because the Yankees KNEW his bat had too much pine tar on it but did NOT tell the Umpires when they first knew about it. Nope, they waited until he did something which negatively affected them to alert the Umpires about it. The Ump then ruled Brett Out and then the AL President reinstated him and ruled the last four Outs to be replayed.

Notice how an AL President ruled on something important like this and NOT the Commish.

Also notice how four Outs of a game had to be replayed which could have resulted in a different ending.

Changing the Hit to an Out (the correct call) would NOT affect the outcome or ending of that game.

David

For those who say that if the ruling were changed for this game then they might also ahve to go back and change things like the 1985 WOrld Series, I say WRONG!!!!

Even though they had the technology for replays back then, there was NO RULE in the books concerning the use of instant replay. Now, however, there IS a rule for use of instant replay (concerning Home Runs) and since there has been precedent set for changing outcomes of games based on those replays, it is MUCH easier for Selig to make this (correct) change.

The reason he doesn't is because he does NOT have the balls to do it.

In 1993, the Commish's Office ruled that steroids and other PED's were against the rules but the Players Union didn't agree. Selig had a LONG time to stand up to the Union but DIDN'T. It took Congress getting into the act before the Players Union budged and made the playing field mroe fair again.

Selig is against instant replay. So when a call like this comes about (one that HAVING instant replay would keep him from having to rule on) he wusses out and just says no to changing a ruling.

SPINELESS!!!

Now Galarraga never gets into the record books as having thrown a perfect game and Joyce has to forever live with people reminding him he screwed up.

Don Denkinger and his Wife was interviewed about the missed call in the 1985 World Series and they talked about the hate mail and threatening phone calls they received afterward, some more than a year after the incident happened. They also talked about people remembering him blowing the call years after it happened (when they met him in person).

Heck, ESPN is bringing it up NOW, 25 years after it happened.

David