[QUOTE=BillyCoxDodgers3B;2414130
None of this really matters to me, as all three rightly belong in of these types of discussions. I just feel it odd that Young wouldn't be discussed more, to the point that Travis had never heard his name mentioned as a contender. A five-time 30 game winner and 10 time 20 game winner, among his jaw-dropping litany of other accomplishments. 511 wins?! Now, there will never be another 300 win pitcher, and Cy nearly doubled that.[/QUOTE]
When I wrote my biography of WaJo 30 years ago, I included an appendix entitled "Was he the greatest?" I didn't go in for statistical comparisons so much as outline the major discussions and polls on that question over the years, concluding that according to those, Johnson was the overwhelming choice. But I also named thirteen pitchers, including Koufax and Young, for whom I thought a strong case could be made, using various metrics, for that honor. Today I would have added several more names to that list. In trying to explain, or perhaps I should say defend, my (slightly biased!) opinion that Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever, I put it this way: if you have the ten top experts on baseball history and pose that question to them, I believe at least four or five would name Johnson and you'd have a smattering of other names, probably including at least one or two for Young. I really do think that's true. It's not a complete consensus, but pretty close, and in any case makes great grist for the discussion mill, as it is here. With Koufax, you have the short career and relatively small numbers to deal with. As for Young, if all or most of his numbers had been posted in the 20th century, he'd win hands down. Unfortunately for him, there are many pitchers from the 1880s and 1890s with gaudy numbers who not even the average baseball fan has ever heard of, so I think there is quite a bit of discounting of his big stats for that reason, justified or not. His thing was that he pitched a LOT over many years to post those numbers, but didn't have the strikeouts, shutouts, E.R.A., etc., to go along with them. And that's not meant to diminish what he accomplished in any way--he was put in the HOF in the 2nd election, for gosh sakes. It's just that, in the opinion of most back then, and now, he didn't quite clear the highest bar of all, for GOAT.

100%

I would guess that, because of the award in both leagues, more people think Young was the GOAT than any other pitcher in history. As for Sandy, he will always be prominent in the discussion of the best five-year stretch by any pitcher, otherwise known as "peak dominance." However, 11 years and 165 wins just doesn't meet the bar for GOAT, just too short a run for that. I saw him pitch many times and never saw anyone better, but there are pitchers that had 15 or 17 really great seasons in their 20-year careers that must take precedence in this argument, IMHO.

I do think people in Cy Young's time would have probably said he was the greatest. He was clearly revered in his time. He's referred to as the "Grand Old Man" on his Tom Barker game card, for example. Nobody had ever seen a Perfect Game before either.

He was a bridge between the old game and what we now know as modern baseball and he pitched equally well in both worlds. Somebody mentioned him not being in the 1936 HOF class. Well, that vote was split into two votes for players: a 19th century vote and a 20th century vote. Cy Young straddled both centuries and his votes were split between them. That's why he wasn't inducted. The next year they did away with the split century vote and he got in.

Young was, indeed, considered the greatest until Matty came along. I didn't know that about Young and the first HOF election--you'd think they would have realized the unfairness of a career splitting votes between the centuries and adjusted for that. Do we know how many total votes he got and where that would have put him if combined? I see where he's #1 in career WAR, and that's impressive considering the respect that stat has come to have recently. But he's also 61st in lifetime E.R.A. and down the list in both strikeouts and shutouts, so I'm not sure how the SABR guys regard him in a statistical light. It's so hard trying to compare across generations in any category, including pitching, so I'm satisfied with my list of 15 pitchers I honestly believe you can mount a truly serious case for as GOAT employing various metrics, and leave it at that. I will also tell you that, from my many years of research, the anecdotal opinion of those who played against Johnson is no less than overwhelming on this score.

The first HOF vote was very complicated and confusing and the Wikipedia page's explanation is equally complicated and confusing. But essentially, it was almost impossible for Young to get inducted on that first ballot with him split between centuries and his votes being recorded in a very confusing way.

I don't know that you can look at strike out totals for him because of his era. But if you look at his WAR totals, he led the league six times, spent 14 seasons in the top five for the entire league, and he's still third all time today for all players.

He never got hurt either. It wasn't until he was 43 years old that his innings dipped below 200. I see him as a Dead Ball Nolan Ryan for his time. Not in the strike out sense, but in the durable freak sense.

Cy Young = Country Strong

No question that Koufax was the GOHT (Greatest of his time).

Just back from the private signing is the line-up card from Game 4 of the 1963 World Series, signed by Sandy. At 88, still a very nice signature. According ot the guy supervising the signing, he spent about 5 minutes looking at this item, as it apparently brought back some memories. I would have loved to have been there to ask him his thoughts.

Rick

Attachment 611548

Amazing artifact, Rick! Congrats on deciding to get this signed.
It was totally worth it. :cool:

Something bothers me about calling the loss leader (315) in major league baseball the best pitcher of all time.

If the truncated career of Koufax was too short, then I guess the elongated career of Cy Young was too long.

If Cy Young is the GOAT, then George Blanda is the GOAT, best QB, of all time.

One could put Cy Young in the same basket as McGinnity, if you consider the Iron Man's minor league stats, that nearly equal his major league stats, with 470 total wins and 343 total losses. Their records suggest that in the 1890s and early 1900s, the disparity between the bigs and the minors may not have been that much.

OMG Hank, you've opened the door to the reversed signature market. That will give the esteemed authenticators fits.:D

I agree with BillyCoxDodgers3B- Longevity must be part of the discussion when one is discussing the greatest. For me, the winner easily is Walter Johnson.
Not taking anything away from Koufax, but he was dominant for only 6 seasons. In those 6 seasons he was the undoubtedly best in the game, but that was only half of his 12-year career. He was backed by a great team and in 3 of those 6 seasons the Dodgers were in the World Series.

From 1910 through 1919-10 straight years- Johnson won 20 games or more games, two of those years winning 30 or more, and in 9 of those 10 years his ERA was under 2.0. The Senators were a pretty miserable team during those years ending the season with a winning record in only 4 of those 10 years. They never won a pennant during those years. Johnson's WAR stands at 152.4, second only to Cy Young. Johnson could also hit, cranking 24 career home runs mostly in the dead ball era and fashioning a .235 lifetime BA.

For those reasons, I think Walter Johnson was the best pitcher of All Time, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Saw these pearls posted on FB today from the recent Sandy signing:

Beautiful! And I would rather have those than a new car.

I might take the car just because I’ve got more than 100,000 miles on mine, but those are great.

I would love to get Koufax, being an SI collector.

someone on Twitter posted a Valenzuela that he sent to be signed.

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Koufax signed a Fernando Valenzuela card? ;) I believe you mean the Venezuela Retirado

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yes, oops! thanks for that correction!

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He's getting older, so it's possible. I'm going to send him a Jerry Reuss and see if he'll inscribe it "1980 All-Star."

What a great story, how’d you even find something like this? It’s an incredible piece of history!

As for me, I’d love to get a Koufax auto one day, but on my budget, I can’t warrant spending that much. I’m a full time student, so the PC money I do get I use deal hunting, unfortunately Koufax isn’t the kinda guy I can find for $50 and lower, maybe if it was 2005 😭😭😭LOL.

Saw this article on Yahoo today about an event signing Brady did where people were charged $3,600 for autographs. These people are very angry with the quality of "autographs" they got:

https://sports.yahoo.com/tom-brady-a...151456696.html

More photos in the Post story:

https://nypost.com/2024/04/23/us-new...tograph-event/

I am not a fan of the modern signature thing; too costly for what it is in the majority of cases. If I can get one for less at auction, why bother? The only items I get signed now are the really, really unusual ones that are not likely to have more than a handful of examples. Like this 1971 Virginia Squires TI Dr. J photo I had signed at a National a few years ago:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...I%20signed.jpg

That, or something that has personal significance to me, like a card I pulled out of a pack when I was a kid.