I guess you think the PSA 8 Wagner was on the up and up too? :rolleyes:

What about him shilling his own auction? Oh, wait a minute. It's probably another bidder with a similiar username that happens to have the same feedback.

Peter, you're obviously way smarter than me, so how do you explain this:

Pank21 wins this card from Probstein for $48.99
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140758703188

But Probstein relists the same card with a BIN of $99.99
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110915770722

You think 'ol Panky just changed his mind and didn't want it?

That Ken Goldin is a real son of a bitch. I'm sure this is his fault.

Well that is a completely different issue, David. If there were multiple examples of that, you might be onto something. i also could think of an innocent explanation but you probably don't want to hear it. That explanation would be that he won the card real cheap and thinks Rick can double his money for him on a BIN.

You got me.. :eek: But if someone wants a raw Shell rookie that looks every bit as nice as that graded card, I'll gladly sell mine for half of what the graded Shell sold for.:D --note extreme sarcasm--

It was Mastro and Allen!!!

Stop bullying me!

You're right, I do that all the time. I win an eBay auction and then tell the seller, 'You just keep that and re-list it for me with a BIN of double the price of what I won it for."

well David, you seem desperate for a conspiracy theory here, so maybe your third one is right, who knows

1. Same seller sold the cards both times
2. Sales occurred in a small time frame
3. Same buyer in original auctions
4. Cards appeared with grade increases second time
5. The original buyer was a dealer(?), yet had someone else sell
....what else? And a list for realistic explanations?

Well, too many to be called a conspiracy theory as it is...although an unfound conclusion can be reached. In this case, the conspiracy theory would rest on the positive side; the side trying to rationalize all the highly suspicious activity as normal, at least before the team spoke up with the truth as they saw it.

I don't believe that psa did favors specifically. I do believe they are unaware of who submitted, but they do know if one person submitted many cards. They would know specifically who submitted at a show, I guess. Sounds like they were cracked and submitted in bulk, with a single, busy grader dealing with all of them.

I would not think the sgc guy submitted to psa, sounds more like the seller doing that, possibly on behalf of the sgc guy, which could be articulated differently. I initially thought this was similar to that major auction house shilling on their own auctions, with this seller in business with the sgc guy, but was highly relieved when they, like the auction house, explained there was no wrong doing. Very relieved.

It never hurts to check things out since greed can enable people to rationalize unethical behavior as normal, necessary, etc, which may be followed through on...with a pre-meditated alibi...if, then BS. Thank goodness all of it added up to nothing, just a list of odd coincidences...

Im less concerned about PSA for all I know the grader at the National made a mistake and let a weak 9 at best get in a 10 holder or card could have gotten a micro shave after being cracked and then resubmitted and deserved the 10 or worse a grader is on the take with this seller (all theories but greed is powerful). The bad side of grading for sure, facts are an 8 going to a 10, ouch.

What still has not been answered is there was clearly shilling on the two cards and nothing from probstein123 about his policy towards when a consignor is caught shilling their auction and how he plans to handle the consignor? It clearly breaks ebay rules, possibly the law, the silence is deafening.

Probstein is the most stand up guy I know in the hobby and I believe many others can vouch for this (hence the amount of business he gets and the trust his consigners and buyers alike have for him). With that being said, the guy is simply huge on ebay. Look at the volume he does! He practically has 2 t206 sets running on ebay right now with thousands of other items. I don't see the issue when he resells a card he once sold prior since he probably sells half the vintage cards on ebay anyway (when you are that big I would assume this is bound to happen many times). And the fact that people get "bumps" is hardly novel. I don't get this thread at all.

Ethan Bous.kila

Lol, Leon, that's the first time I've seen you add someone's name for giving too much praise :)

Wow. I hadn't read this thread in 14 hours and also looking at the similar CU thread it's become Bump-Up-Fest in PSA-Land. I noticed the bump-up on the '63 Nitschke shown in the PSA thread was initially purchased by "set-fillers".

Look at his feedback he left regarding the 1 item listed.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...kLeftForOthers

Also reading Joe Orlando's latest article:

"For years, hobbyists have been discussing the potential of the high-end sports card and memorabilia market, wondering when the next major jump in values would occur. Well, I am here to tell you that after evaluating many of the prices recorded in the latest slew of auctions and confirming some pretty hefty private sales, the next level has arrived."

Joe's right again. Two grade bump-ups do tend to drive the resale prices significantly higher. Let's also not forgot that the news article regarding Dmitri Young's auction quoting Young to admitting that one of the high profile cards was a bump-up from a 9 to a 10.

http://www.psacard.com/articles/arti...ezine2012aug07

I don't know what to say about the Ebay consignment seller. Obviously we don't know all the facts. One thing is becoming obvious however, is that his auctions are becoming the hobby black hole for, in my opinion, what appears to be an alarming trend in over-graded bump-ups and staying silent on the issue doesn't help at all either in my eyes.

It's because he knows SGC would have graded it accurately.

As far as Probstein relisting cards after sales. I have seen this done several times with 205's. I have not bought from him in yrs because I thought I was shilled up on some high grade AB's a few yrs back. 3 of which I lost last second and was relisted with a BIN 2 weeks later at about 20% higher than closing bid which was already high enough for the cards. I got crazy on bidding but still got out bid on them:( This thread kinda confirms that there is some awkward bidding going on. Then again he gets great prices for his cards so the buyer might have consigned the cards back to get a quick flip or try anyways.

/

Let's suppose for a minute that the Art Shell is a 10, which it isn't, but let's just say that it is. What does that tell you about the grader who gave it an 8? What is his skill level if he can't get within two grades of the card's actual condition? That doesn't say much for the grader's ability, whatever its actual grade is, if he's that far off in either direction. Aren't they supposed to bring a little more accuracy than that to the table?

Barry,

I'm a mechanical engineer by profession. When we design parts, the drawings call out dimensions with tolerance limits. Perhaps PSA should do the same. "This Art Shell card is a PSA 8, +2, -0".

I know Dan. I can see that an 8 and an 8.5 could be interchangeable, they are really just a hairline apart. But changing the 8 to a 10 made the card increase in value by 6700%. Don't you think the graders need to be a whole lot more responsible in their assessments?

Absolutely. If you look at PSA's video about the grading process, they claim at least 2 graders review the card and sometimes three if the first two graders can't agree. How did this Art Shell and others get by them?

What if this person praising him is an employee of his? Would that possibly make a difference?

ps....I am not saying the person giving the positive response in this thread is an employee of Rick's. I used it as an example of why a name would need to be in a post that is a positive response. I think it matters.

How did this PSA 10 get by them with 3 touched corners and a fisheye?

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1976-Topps-33...JCQ~~60_57.JPG

I agree with you David that something is amiss here.

And I just saw the Ryan you posted- both of the bottom corners show touches of wear. Not a whole lot, but enough to knock the card down to the 8-8.5 range. What's going on here?

Agreed.

Good work again David.

Folks...I distinctly remember (and it caused quite a stir on the old Full Count board) when a 1887 N172 Old Judge King Kelly PSA 6 sold in a Maestro auction that later found itself in a PSA 9 holder. This has been going on for some time now unfortunately.

There also seems to be a notch/touch on the right border at shoulder height.

Do you mean the same notch (and print dot) it had when it was a PSA 9? :D

http://images.vintagecardprices.com/...81/6937892.JPG

That would be the one.

this is my point, exactly. I know of many ungraded, high end vintage cards that are sitting in safe deposit boxes. Nationwide? There are tons of "undiscovered" cards that are not graded, and not included in any population report anywhere. I would be very wary about any population report as being truly accurate. With all of the cracks and resubmittals to different companies, and all the undiscovered, non-publicized vintage out there?? Be wary.

I was kidding Andrew. I know SGC would have done a better job. Iv'e found the best grader in the world for me,,, thats myself.

If I ever decide to sell a worthless card for a bunch of money I'll call Ken Goldin I mean PSA. Seems like the latter is perfectly acceptable. Of corse I don't know anyone over there so I probably wouldn't get the grade I want.

I see a lot of great arguments on PSAs behalf, so I'm convinced, nothing wrong there :roll eyes: So does anyone want to talk about the shilling? Or does that get a pass?

I may be in the minority, but ...
 

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

So what about the $475 shill on the $611 Havlicek? You ok with that too?

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=120964176990


Also might be nothing but the winner of the Havlicek with their 595 Bids this month of which 456 are with only Probstein123 or 79%, humm yea that looks good too.

Thanks Patrick, I didn't know this kind of shilling was acceptible. I learn something new everyday...

Yes, when it's a low bid like that it's not really shilling. It's called a "safety bid." :rolleyes:

Grading is inherently subjective, no way around that. Having said that, though, it is my view that TPG is, on balance, of benefit to the hobby largely because it facilitates long-distance including internet transactions.

The problem I see relates to the enormous differences in value ascribed to high grades of even modern day commons. Even assuming no ethical problems in the grading process, the subjective nature of grading should over time reduce these disparities in my view, perhaps risking the investment of those collecting the highest-graded cards.

Just to add a bit of clarity it is my understanding that Joseph M Pankiewicz hasn't worked at SGC in nearly 10 yrs. Now back to my popcorn.

It's my understanding that he hasn't been a grader for them in nearly 10 years. The SGC website refers to him as a representative that accepts consignments on their behalf. Whether or not that means he's on their payroll I don't know.

http://www.sgccard.com/appearances.htm

Just going by what I was told with regards to his grading status. So my apologies for that....... I would assume if he is accepting consignments or submissions he is being paid for his time.

I said I was in the minority!
 

I knew I'd be in the minority on this one!

In my opinion ... if there are two legitimate bidders above a shill bid ... eh. The are two other bidders would have pushed it to the same price any way. There was no change in the eventual sales price.

When the underbidder is fraudulent ... then yes, we have a problem ... because the high bidder would not have had to pay his highest price. So the $475 bid is a bit more concerning, because I see your concerns about the actual underbidder. (There could have been two shill underbidders in that auction, in which case the winner was defrauded.)

Cheers,
Patrick

Yeah, but does a popcorn (leopard) change its' spots?

The issues specified above are why I collect vg to midgrade postwar mainstream cards--no need to worry about nonsense like this.

I've played the bump game and the raw submittal game in the past quite profitably. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't see evidence of some grand conspiracy. Frankly, the idea is far-fetched. Think about what is being suggested: that a highly organized criminal conspiracy exists to make money in relatively small sums at the risk of the TPG employees' jobs. Does PSA really put its graders in such desperate straits that they have to take bribes? And if it is PSA corporate that is alleged to be part of the scam, does it really make sense that the officers of a $100 million public company are conspiring with an Ebay seller?

If you think high-grade [allegedly] postwar card submissions are a crooked endeavor, the answer is simple, of course: don't participate. Buiy cards that are objectively difficult to find in any grade, not cards made rare/desirable only by way of some inherently suspect, subjective decision.

If you think Probstein or any other seller is crooked, don't buy from him.

I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. I have paid good money for some, and gotten good buys on others like last night ( psa 7 ed reulbach for $996, the last psa 7 sold for over $2k). I think alot of people that make these statements really need to have there ducks in a row, as people can be made accountable for such comments.......

Pull your head out of the sand. I think Probstein needs to get his ducks in a row and explain (at the very least) why he allows his consignors to shill their own auctions.

Pat look at the bid % of the 3 bidders over the $250 mark. 2 of them are way high IMO and the 3rd is the winner. Probably legit but still ripped off:eek:

This is what's puzzling.... If the same card you just bought somehow made it's way into a 5 holder, your price would have been a terrible deal. How do you know it hasn't been bumped?

I really like exhibitmans post. I try to avoid graded cards, but it's hard. When I see a card I want in a slab, I ask myself, if I purchase this card and bust it out, would it potentially lose "value"? If the answer is yes, I just don't buy it.

I know the hobby has grown accustomed to TPG, but it's soooo crazy to me that a card can lose value just by removing it from its holder.

And how would you suggest he stop it, put a block on every single consignor? Monitor every one of his hundreds of auctions to see every bid?

the guy practically sells half the vintage cards on ebay. If you dont have a high bid % with him, you probably dont like/ are not bidding on vintage cards. Also, why does probstein have to police ebay policy? Probstein pays ebay fees to do this stuff. Regardless of what is going on behind the scenes (which i have no clue but I'll give Probstein benefit of doubt because of the guy I know him to be), blame ebay not him. He cant control this stuff.. he doesnt have the administrative ebay software.. Jeeeeeez

+1 Kevin Mize post

I don't understand Peter, auction houses are expected to monitor bids, why not on eBay?

I think he can at the very least check red flags, like this bright red one here.

I also think he should address the issue better, he could at least stop accepting consignments from this guy. I buy from Rick sometimes and I'd like to have the same piece of mind that I get from buying from AHs that I trust.

Shill bid me
 

I know my opinions don't match the majority of the board's ... but I honestly don't care if a seller shill bids me.

I as a buyer want the item and have set the price I will pay. I view my bid as a Buy-it-Now price. In other words, if the seller had this item with a Buy-it-Now price that was equal to my bid ... I would buy it immediately. If it was more, I wouldn't.

So if I get an item at a price less than my max bid ... good for me. Lucky day.

If I get an item for my max price ... cool. I got the item I wanted, and paid the amount I was willing to pay. (and not a penny more.)

If someone shill bids me up to my max price ... well, that kind of sucks (because I would have been lucky and gotten a bargain), but at the end of the day I still get the item I wanted and for a price I was wiling to pay. And since I set the price, I always get the item for a price I like.

So, I understand people get upset that they don't get the bargain they hoped for (and agree it is not right for seller's to do this) ... but I'd rather get shilled and get the item for my price, than not get the item.

And everyone on here has my permission to bid me up to my maximum price. I won't complain! (If you outbid me and get the item I want however ......)

Cheers,
Patrick