What a class act. He made his mother a criminal.

REA refunded Jason the 9K he originally spent on the fake auto. Should he not have accepted the money?

Props
 

Thank you Jason.

The weeks old: "I'll tell you soon" party line was getting tiresome.

givepeaceachance...I tell ya...it's ironic to me...almost every time an ebayer is revealed to be a crook of sorts...their name is ironic in that it includes something sketchy...in this case disguised as a do gooder!

Agreed! He'll most likely come back as: "Idneversellfaket206's"

right! or jesussavessignedt206collectors!!

LOL, don't forget the i'm 100% a scammer/POS "God Bless" they add.:eek::D

Why wouldn't the auction house be out the money? The buyer paid for something they didn't receive that was represented as something it wasn't. The buyer is supposed to absorb the loss on something like that?

I think in most cases the TPA would reimburse.

But it would be up to the AH or consignor to pursue that, not the buyer.

Is that true? Since its an opinion in general some of the TPAs will disagree with each other. In this case, there is clear cut evidence that they are wrong. So are people all getting reimbursed by JSA/PSA/SGC?

No...I meant the AHs in this situation. But that's just a guess.

All I am saying, was John Lennon a forger?

Brian

I don't see how you could pursue a refund on an opinion.

If the auction description described the item as being an authentic signature as a matter of fact and not opinion, then the item was clearly not described correctly and that, in my opinion, would be grounds for a refund on the sale.

If anything I think this whole situation might have a positive impact on how descriptions for lots are written to reflect opinions for what they are. This is just a snippet from a description written by an AH for a signed T206:

Marquard has boldly signed the card on the front in blue ink, with the signature grading "9/10."

Now, that to me is saying that Marquard unquestionably signed the card. A more accurate description would say "the signature is bold and in blue ink, with the signature on the card grading "9/10".

Hey Brian, Brent, Al, Scott, Lee, Joe et al,

All future autograph auction listings should include the following verbiage:

”Presumed Authentic”

regardless of the authenticater or certification.

Problem solved. Your welcome.;)

That's good. "Here is a presumably unaltered T206 Ty Cobb card that is presumably signed by Cobb".

W/R/T refunds and who pays, last year I purchased a JSA full-certed signed card from a MEARS auction that turned out to be a pre-print. Both companies offered an immediate refund when I provided the information establishing the mistake. I am not sure which of them bore the ultimate cost of it.

It isn't that mistakes are made--they are--it is how they are handled. Whether it is a $500 error or a $9,000 error, the auctioneer should do as Brian did and the TPA should step up and make good to the auctioneer. The only one who should be out money is the TPA who made the mistake that touched off the whole chain of events. I would think that the public relations damage of JSA or SGC or PSADNA refusing to do so would cause would greatly exceed the cost of being exposed as someone who does not stand behind the work product. Not to mention the cost of being embroiled in what could be some FUGLY litigation over the snafu.

PSA - the 'A' stands for Authenticator. One of the services they provide, according to their main webpage is "Autograph Authentication"

One of the main selling points of the TPAs is to 'authenticate' a particular piece of memorabilia (card, autograph, etc) therefore increasing the value of the item. See their claims of record setting prices for items they have graded.

They are not just selling opinions. That may be what you are getting, but that is not what the TPAs are marketing.

whatever happened to “Never get cheated”?

Could not agree more. It will make them a bit more cautious of what they're doing.

au·then·tic
/ôˈTHen(t)ik
adjective

of undisputed origin; genuine.
"the letter is now accepted as an authentic document"
synonyms: genuine, real, bona fide, true, veritable;

Fake T206s
 

Do we also start stating: “this T206 Mint 9 Bat Off Cobb is presumed to be unaltered and NOT trimmed to achieve its pinnacle grade”???? It’s NOT just autographs that require a “leap of faith”, and if collectors think it is, they are only fooling themselves. Bottom line is, like it or not, the current state of the hobby is built upon the “assumed” expertise of PSA, SGC, JSA, MEARS, etc., and their card grading, autograph and game used assessments. Until someone can do consistently better, their “opinions” (if that’s what you want to call them), will continue to be accepted by most auction houses and collectors as gospel. If we start hedging on their grading/autograph decisions, where does that leave us? I’ll tell you where...back to the pre-grading/authentication years when ramped “wild-west” fraud ignited Operation Bullpen.

Don't buy high grade vintage or autographs without good provenance, graded (opinionated) or not. Problem mostly solved. I have never sweat over an autograph. I have never bought one. And I only have one higher grade card and know where it came from before being graded. No doubt there are altered cards in high grade holders but at least they are real. :) A fake autograph just ruins whatever it is on.

I don't really see the outrage over "opinions" being in the description. If you read any LOA you have you will only read an opinion. So if you accept an opinion on your LOA, then why can't you accept the word in the auction description?

I'd think "trimmed t206s too many to list" would be more apropos. Likely to cause too many hard feelings though, as it would upset many more members here

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?
I am sure there is fraud in other hobbies but is it this widespread?
My other hobbies do not involve collecting anything, fortunately, except my airline boarding passes.

Real/fake art has it's own Netflix docu-series...

https://www.netflix.com/title/81032626

This is all probably chump change compared to art, antiques, stamps, coins, etc.

It depends. One of the more prolific stamp fakers recently did volume, but mostly didn't get much for his stuff. I bought one, and it was a 60 cent stamp altered to make a maybe 600 dollar stamp that I "won" for about ten bucks.

Famous forgers work in some cases is itself collectible, and sometimes sells for more than the original (I don't own a Sperati or Fournier, that I know of but will eventually. )


The authentication process is probably more involved for the really expensive stuff and isn't generally done on a time schedule. I believe it's the same for art and antiques, but the money in some art is amazing. Coins I'm not so sure about, but there is a lot of well done fakery these days.

Art has always been faked. Every year people go to museums and look at fraudulent artwork. According to this 2010 article, it's estimated that 20 % of all artwork in major British museums are fraudulent pieces.

I'm sure an expert looked at these paintings too. You can't ask for infallibility from a human being.

There is a lot of fraud in the classic car/muscle car market.
James

If money is involved, the answer is yes. And the more money, the more fraud.

I was aware of the art, it always gets press coverage.
But do stamps and coins have as much fraud as this hobby?
Do less popular collectibles have a lot of fraud?

Rare Books
 

The rare book market went thru a forgery scandal in the 1930’s when some incredible research, much like this research, discovered that a number of pamphlets thought to be first editions, were published at a later date. The forger was identified as one of the world’s greatest collectors and bibliographer, who himself authenticated the forgeries. The story is fascinating and research continues to this day. The book that first described the forgeries is An Equiry into certain Nineteenth Century Pamphlets, by John Carter and Graham Pollard.
If anyone is interested I could supply other titles. The forger was Thomas Wise.
There have been other interesting more recent examples like the Mormon and Texas history forgeries, in which a number of people were killed.

I'm confused (which doesn't take much)

If this happened in early 2017:

http://www.wfmj.com/story/35123889/y...raud-to-prison

Who's doing it now? his grandma?

The Vinland Map has recently been proven to be a fake and the evidence continues to mount.

Yet it is still displayed at the Yale Beinecke Library in a nice shiny display case. Go figure.

The article names 2 other residents of Girard, one of whom got probation and the other of whom had yet to be sentenced at the time the article was written. I’d also point out that 6 years prison does not mean 6 years prison. If Ohio is anything like Oklahoma 6 years prison could mean a few months incarceration followed by supervised probation, possibly with an ankle monitor. This activity obviously seems very serious to us in the hobby, but for prosecutors and law enforcement this is very low level stuff. In fact, I would guess that even a second offense would result in minimal punishment. If I were representing the guilty party I’d feel like anything more serious than a deferred sentence would mean I didn’t do my job very well. It will be interesting to see how things unfold, but my expectations are low.

Jason

Someone MUCH MORE knowledgeable about US Coins than I am could better tell the story of a forger who was making rare date $20 St. Gaudens Gold Coins from common ones...

His work was so good that he was never caught, I believe, despite the fact that he left his mark on many of the coins that he worked on.

His "work" is even collectible today because of his "talent".

I'm sure that I'm forgetting some of the details...

I suppose it depends on what you think of as both "as much" and fraud.


Stamps has plenty of low level stuff going on. altering something to appear to be something it's not is pretty easy. And doing stuff to make less saleable items saleable is even easier. And that's been going on almost as long as there's been a hobby. Sometimes it was done years ago, and that can get amusing at times.


The main area I collect is the 1873 and 1879 officials. in 1875 the POD decided to print reprints of every us stamp ever issued as part of the upcoming centennial celebrations. To prevent illegal use, they overprinted the officials with "specimen" Some were really common, some sold less than 100 copies. And for years collectors didn't think much of those overprinted stamps. The common ones often have the "Specimen" erased and a fake cancel added sometimes it's well done, sometimes they just crossed the overprint out with a pen. On ones like the 1cent executive dept its an effort to turn a stamp that might sell for $15 into one that might bring 2-400. On others it gets sort of comical... I have one of the really uncommon ones that was done to. 72 copies sold, catalog value 1200. I got it for $20 as a common used copy of the basic stamp. It's not worth 1200, but certainly more than 20 and whoever altered it in the past sort of did me a favor as I probably wouldn't own one otherwise.


Cancellations and other postal markings are faked pretty often, stamps are added to covers to represent rare uses, etc. Most aren't truly expensive, and that's because the authenticating groups take their time making a decision. And ALL the really expesnive stuff gets scrutinized very closely. Even stuff that's known to be "good" .

A few articles

http://www.rfrajola.com/opinions/klep.htm

http://www.rfrajola.com/opinions/gslc.htm


This one is a summary of a controversial group of stamps. The most recent expertizing took 5 Years and resulted in a book full of details that even most stamp collectors couldn't love.

http://www.rfrajola.com/grinnells/grinnells.htm

Stanley Gibbons (the people behind the British version on the Scott stamp catalog) purchased the printing plates for several early Argentina stamps (the 1862-65 issues I believe) and ran off a bunch of forgeries that continue to confuse stamp collectors to this day.

That's about as scandalous as Jefferson Burdick printing thousands of card fakes and still being held in high regard.

Stanley Gibbons is their own company.


And when they were newish both Scotts and Gibbons did some iffy things, some more iffy than others. Many of the early dealers who sold in large volume did.

One of the salesmen (Or other official) for one of the banknote companies was regularly an early visitor to any new government in South America. Want instant legitimacy? You NEED stamps! Thousands of them, in as many different denominations as you can afford. Nevermind that the ousted government left behind a few hundred thousand I sold them 2 years ago, you need your own stamps as soon as possible!


Then his friends would buy the remainders at a few cents on the Dollar. And sometimes he doubled the order and kept half. The purchased stamps were sold to a few very large dealers in Europe who made packets for sale to new collectors. Quite a racket.

This thread is saddening, yet very informative.
Proof is in the pictures.
Why I love Net54.

Forged coins are somewhat common, coming from China

They’re called LOA’s because they mean “Letter of Authenticity”. Nothing there implies or states it is an opinion.

If they were called “OOA” (Opinions on Authenticity) or “LOAO” (Letter of Authenticity Opinion) then I might lean a little more to agreeing with you.

Stating it’s your LOA and underlying in the fine print that it’s an opinion is borderline fraud.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

The people who get paid for their opinions wouldn't get paid as much if they spent time underlining the part about it being an opinion.

The people who pay for opinions want to believe that the opinions they pay for are some sort of guarantee.

So they treat them as if they are.

It's not "borderline fraud", it's blatant ignorance of the facts.

You get what you pay for.

Not what you want to think you paid for.

Or maybe you don't.

Laughing out loud.

Doug

Has anyone seen this? Not a T206 though...

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F303008674347

It doesn't appear the ebay ID that was revealed rang a bell with anyone? Virtually nothing has been said about it.

Where have we seen this before
 

LMFAO

Letters Marketing Fraudulently Authentic Opinions

LOL at the ink that was smudged approximately yesterday.

Having read tidbits on here about Sal Bando and not knowing what some were referring to, I decided to check to see if I could find anything.

It didn't take long to find this, which I assume is the story people are alluding to in here?
https://forums.collectors.com/discus...d-news-for-jsa

In my searching it was easy to find other stories as well, which only makes me scratch my head further wondering how some of these companies are still in business today? :confused:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/f...-they-possibly

I'll abide with Leon's wishes not to post the Hauls of Shame link, but that one is real interesting as well. :eek:

Looks like it was signed with one of those rare early 20th century sharpies. :D