I believe the auction house/EBay shilling will be exposed and punished. Also, the IRS will get theirs on the trimming/kick backs etc. The rest...not so much. Just my thoughts.

How’s CLCT since joes last conference earnings call?

To me, the easiest case to make against all these losers is that they avoided their income tax. Sort of an Al Capone job. If they won't be able to get them on anything else, they always have that in their back pocket. Good times

How do you know they didn't claim the income and pay the taxes?

He knows nothing.

Do most illegitimate businesses pay income taxes on their earnings? Just asking.

That card has been in a 9 holder long before Evan bought it. I dont see any evidence in that blowout thread that he trimmed anything. Although the paper cutter purchase isn't exactly a good sign. An explanation for that, if there is one, could go a long way.

Did I miss the part where they showed proof of who trimmed or consigned the cards? Or is just that the ebay ID associated with his business purchased them?

OK, went through my collection for the first time in a while.

Is it my imagination, or does half my collection in TPG holders look slightly trimmed?

This thread is messing with my head...

because crooked Fu**s, don't pay their taxes...I guarantee it PERIOD

I don't know about everyone else, but all my friends and I that own our own business's, pay 100's of thousands a year in taxes. Do you think they are making 10K on a card and paying 20-30% in taxes ?:D:D:D

I would bet a lot of money that cap gains taxes were not paid properly or at all on a lot of these sales. Not an expert in cap gains on US collectables but I’d suspect that the IRS would have a heyday with some of these dealers.

Come on, get real. Paper cutter aside they have found numerous cards that were bought by him and resold in fairly short order, altered, for significant gains. Where there is smoke, if it walks like a duck, etc etc etc

I don’t think many of the sales were real......they were fake Kabookie Thester BS.

Half sounds about right. Doesn't matter what grade, high, mid or low. Best of luck to you, as you dig deeper into it.

And to all others in the same boat... do not hesitate to send them back to PSA, and make them live up to their supposed "guarantee". Given their continued denial and arrogance, they should not be allowed to sweep this under the rug!

If the FBI is actually investigating this the evidence should be clear. Someone consigned all of these altered cards. The only question will be did they change hands privately or at a show first.

This sounds fairly exaggerated to me. Even with all the fraud being uncovered and with how there are more midgrade '50s superstar cards on the BODA list than would've been expected, it's still hard to imagine that half of all graded cards in existence have been altered.

There is way too much mediocre low-mid graded stuff out there for that, especially in the countless spots where a minor alteration would only be improving a $60 card into a $100 one.

I'd have to think that when it comes to the post WW2 stuff, the bulk of the issue would still be around grade 6-7 and up. Obviously anything earlier 20th century is a different ballgame

I only know of one. Years ago I read about a different organized crime figure that was brought up on tax evasion, but got off because he had claimed and itemized all his ill gotten gains and paid taxes on them.
No idea what happened after, but I can't imagine it went well for him. But at least he didn't go down over not paying taxes.

It's a hard thing to know, unless someone gets charged and has to prove they paid.

Not being a tax guy, I'm not sure if it would go under capital gains, business profit, or miscellaneous income.

My card sales etc, get claimed as miscellaneous income. They are also pretty small. And since my wife is in the computer industry taxed pretty heavily. (No that that's a bad thing)
Hmmmm….. if I call the odd bits of "Junk" I sell "assets" maybe I can call it capital gains instead and save a few percent.. Nah, best to just pay the higher rate and have no problems.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=634

Here comes the 71's:D "I ain't no Shellanbeck girl" .

And this hasn't been discussed but you know all too well it's happening with all the "flips". More flip's than mary lou retton.

A previously trimmed 7.5 that was cracked out yet again to make a nice fake 8 and beat some chump for 400. Another 5 k to add to the running total that will exceed 1 billion once this scam has been tallied. And those will just be the ones we know of. Collect what you love and if you love to get your teeth kicked in, keep supporting the PSA fraud.

Does anyone holding a large amount or large value amount of Non Altered Slabbed Cards have an Exit Strategy To Limit their losses/downside potential from the impending collateral damage that in my opinion will be occurring from all
This Mess?

Maybe my theory is way off idk

Thoughts ?

Personally I have been selling most of mine. I have a few more I want to unload soon.

I do have a complete graded set(I had them graded) that I know are all unaltered, am still on the fence about selling them. I have had them for years and I bought them from a guy that had them for decades. I do have about 10 other graded cards I plan on keeping.

I personally hope the scammers and lemmings get stuck holding the bag. I don't see it happening though because too many lemmings will jump at the chance to buy the altered graded cards if the prices start falling.

Much respect for selling them. I don't think 100K (400 cards) is that much to get stuck with when the musical chairs ponzi scheme finally stops.

I honestly think it will be after I die :) and I'll let my grand kids sort it out for fun and a few extra bucks in their pockets. I still like em, I'm just pissed that I was ripped off. Mostly just mad at myself because in the back of my mind, I knew.

If there was a massive correction, it would have happened by now. There won’t be. Sorry.

We can agree to disagree no problem at all. I just think there will be a substantial correction coming. I very well could be wrong we will see how it plays out. I chose to sell and Stay on the sidelines for now.....

Not sure how you can make this statement, as the FBI investigation is still ongoing. Don't you think word will spread, as these people are arrested and the truth about fraudulently graded PSA cards comes out a much wider audience?

Thousands have already been exposed, but that's just a tiny fraction of what's really out there. It's been happening for years, but the ability to prove it is still barely in its infancy.

Stay tuned... it's just the tip of the iceberg, with many more developments to follow.

I agree Mark

We will see. I am long on cards - very old, very rare, blue chip players, blue chip sets, etc. I believe the market for Cobb, Wagner, Ruth, etc will always be there, regardless of how this shakes out. There may be some damage concerning high grade t206s and 33 Goudey, and I think high grade cards from 1950s+ could take a real beating; but I am not worried about the likes of this card:

Awesome cards and I agree

Nice run. That it my assumption as well. I'd throw Cobb, Gehrig, and Jackson in that same group. Lower grade, high eye appeal cards with a greater chance of being unaltered seem the safest long term bet at this point.

The huge premiums paid for some higher grade cards may come down if people realize most have been altered at one time or another. But based on the sales of high grade vintage and modern 9.5s and 10s I have not seen any indication of that as of yet.

I think a lot of people will get away from graded cards all together.

I've read and understand the reasons why TPG's became part of the hobby but with today's technology, as far as photos and scanning goes, things aren't like those days before the TPG's came along.

Some will say they provide a service, help those know the cards are real, not doctored, etc, but I think a lot of people now realize those are things even TPG's can't guarantee.

This is basketball and mainly Beckett but HOLY BLEEPING WOW and it takes a LOT to get me to say that when it comes to the shadiness in the hobby.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1216119

Both the fine art and the antiquities markets are swimming with fakes and sophisticated counterfeits yet prices and record highs in both markets continue to rise year after year. I don’t see why the sports card market would be any different. For the vast majority of sports collectors (or really all collectors) being able to A) Show it off, B) be able to say “I own it”, C) Complete a project, or D) all of the above far outweighs everything else.

A lot of data is ruined by shill bidding. If using VCP I'd remove all PWCC final sales from the equation.

I feel the same way. Throughout 20 years I sent thousands of cards to PSA for grading and was a 'platinum' member. I knew they weren't perfect, and believed some things here and there fell through the cracks. I let their staff treat me like garbage, but believed in the product so much that I was the first guy to their defense when anti-graders bashed them. Looking back, I was the fool. I've been liquidating my graded .99 seven day no reserve auctions the past couple months. I have most of a PSA/DNA set that I couldnt stand the look of now, so I cracked then out. I'll never buy graded again and, ironically, find myself on the anti-grader side of debates in FB forums. I guess I needed the actual visual proof BODA provided to wake me up. Now I only collect raw in binders.

The Market Was Manipulated, Sold Pricing/VCP starting late 2013.......My mind and memory goes back two 2 HOF Rookie Cards..... both stayed at the same level’s for PSA 8’s for years then all the sudden they went crazy stating end of 2013... I’m talking about Rose and Ryan Rookies...they were marketed as critical blue chip assets pieces...
What a Crock Of S**T.....Give me a Break......

No way I’m calling total Market Manipulation by So Called “Investors” and others.....such a farce....top it all off there are thousands of more altered cards in the Bogus So Called Market Place...it’s deep rotten and wrong...

Top it all off the TPG’s Don’t Know their Asses from a Hole in the Ground when it comes to knowing wether a card is trimmed or altered.....Or Far Worse They’re In on it with Certain Big Time Submitters... Invitationals ?????

Very Sad on Many Levels

Ran across these reprints of Mike Trout serial #'d Bowman Chrome auto cards on Etsy. The seller lists them as reprints and is not trying to pass them off as real, but I cant believe that they won't make their way into someone's hands down the road who would do that.

Also, several other #'d, autographed reprints are listed. At a minimum, there should be some type of copyright infringement issues with these.

I've contacted Etsy and alerted them to these unauthorized counterfeit card; we'll see if there is any action.

Etsy has more fake items than Coaches Corner. That same type of stuff is also all over eBay. I have been amazed for years that high end counterfeits have not made real cards completely worthless as they are so easy to make.

The way Etsy operates is the copyright holder must file the report (which iniates legal action) and then Etsy pulls down the listing to err on the side of caution. If you're not the copyright holder then you may be liable for damages if found guilty of copyfraud.

I have no idea what will happen to card pricing as this fraud all unfolds but the I don’t think sportscards compare well with fine art. The pool of art buyers is significantly larger then those buying cards. It would only take a few whales to exit cards for prices to adjust.

And card values, according to the pwcc indexes are flat the past 30 months. 30 months that should have seen significant gains.

And unrelated, but I am skeptical that there will be a next generation that can absorb all of the collections that will get sold in the next 20 years. Average age here has to be mid 50s, market is going to be flooded with large collections coming to market. Is there really a second wave of collectors to absorb all of these cards are premium prices?

Depends on how many Gary Vee lemmings there are.

Why?

Other asset classes have grown substantially. Markets are flush with cash. SP 500 for instance is up 28% this year alone. Dow has almost doubled in the past 3 years. I think the stagnation has a lot to do with price manipulation and FOMO
but that, to me anyways, reinforces how small the card market is. I think this fraud will have an impact - it won’t take many big buyers to pull back to have an impact. That, plus demographics plus the fact we are at the peak of an incredible debt fueled asset bubble don’t make me confident in long term card values.

I AGREE with Everything you have said above, except I do not consider graded cards a asset class. THE GRADED CARD MARKET HAS BEEN SEVERELY FALSELY MANIPULATED SINCE LATE 2013.......
It's way to top heavy for me to ever consider investing in.......Long Term I think Levels Go Back to Pre. 2013 Levels.

i agree baseball cards are not an "asset class" atleast not to me! I can certainly see a "correction" with many cards...50's-70's high grade rookies...some T206...green cobbs...possibly goudey ruth's but I see desirable vintage blue chip doing just fine as the supply is low and the demand high.

I don’t count my collection against my net worth so I agree with you guys. But I’ve always suspected that there are a significant number of collectors that have cards as a large percentage of their net worth. I think this is a big part of the reason most collectors want this altered cards thing to go away.

Lets be real, this isn’t a hobby for kids anymore. You can’t even find cards for sale where I live. A small number of large volume collectors are driving price increases on vintage. Hard to see how it can last when most collectors are in their 60s. Anecdotal but everyone I know has money in RE, most own financial
assets, some have non trad investments like art or cars and literally no one collects sports cards. I have a huge network and don’t know one person outside of online communities that collects cards anymore. We all did as kids and
i’m the only guy that came back into it. Our hobby is incredibly small and top heavy.

Historically most hobbies are a bit flat when the stock market is doing well.

Yep, finally got a reply from them stating that. So unless Topps contacts them, the seller is free to keep using Etsy to sell the fakes.

Take sept 14th 18 to dec 19, only about a 10% increase in the sp. Most people arent showing that big Oct-dec dump in 2018 to tout how well stocks did this year. Hey 10% ain't bad, but the "28%" just is accounting for that big drop.


No FOMO and price manipulation in stocks?


No Fraud in stocks? People lost about 90% on this TEUM company lying about earnings. Did that stop the "28%" gain on the SP?

My point was equities have been doing well the past 4 years. And yes stock prices are a joke, pe ratios are crazy high. Cheap money, etc. The fact that cards have stagnated in this environment - easy, cheap money - suggests we are at a peak. If money tightens up look out, and if some whales exit could be real ugly. JMHO.

Whales
 

Yes, that is true for the people who are spending $50k or more on PSA 10's and high end 52 Mantles. For 99% of collectors, we won't even notice it.

Agreed!

Did anyone see this Interview?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f3k5VSqVt4

Towards the end, he says he see's greener pastures and blue skies ahead for this marketplace/industy.....

I see Visions Of Silver Bracelets and Orange Jumpsuits

We discussed it in May here and at Blowout. In fact, it was one the things that threw gas on the fire of the internet investigation. People hated how smug he was in that interview and looked for more things to pin on him.

Peak schmeak, this is starting to sound like a seeking alpha article. The same was said Jan 19 rescission, global slowdown, etc


When people exit the stock market, they'll need to put resources elsewhere. Maybe something tangible that can make them think of days gone by when life was simpler, and MLBers needed winter jobs. Hoping its oil stocks, since it didnt happen last year!

Dont take it personally, anytime someone relates cards to stocks there are two sides to it. I never believed in these PWCC indices, I stick to what I know. Tough cards, more demand and signed 52 topps when I see 'em

More high profile cards are outed and the amount of damages incurred just keep piling up:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=248

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...333320&page=18

By the way where's Peter Spaeth been lately?

So what happens, once a card is outed; is there a data base of cert #'s, etc? just curious, are the owner's of these cards, requesting refunds, are they still changing hands, is anyone doing anything? I know maybe the fbi is involved, but I haven't heard any more about that since the nat'l. Seems like a lot of great work is being done, but is anything happening because of it? I was just curious. Is there another post I am missing that is providing the card details, etc?

these are hardly high profile cards????? but more cards nonetheless!

The best comment in one of the threads is that the card now had perfect centering: 45/45

He is alive and well, he quoted me and made a snide remark on another forum last night.:)

I do recall that there was a Blowout thread that kept a tally sheet of the number of cards and the prices paid for the altered cards. I don't have a link to it. As for the victims, PWCC did reach out and offer refunds for bad cards that they sold. I have no idea what the response has been and the amount of restitution has been for those parties. There are unofficial statements from board members stating that the FBI is involved with very little in the way of details.

Dan
What do you want to know about the FBI? They are absolutely, 100% investigating. That is all of the info we will know for now. No doubt more will come out later but I don't expect it to be soon. Too many rats to still roll over.

He's been busy searching for a nice-looking O-Pee-Chee Gretzky rookie. :)

Thanks Leon.

been another 2.5 years or so..