Well, t least JSA is consistent in being fooled "sometimes".

I'm going to go out on a limb here - if someone (JSA, PSA or SGC) didn't cert the signatures, then there wouldn't have been near the amount of cash involved at the time the hammer hit the gavel.

Not saying that people shouldn't rely solely on certs, but that's where the appearance of validity begins. If someone or organization is getting fooled that often, then perhaps they need to re-evaluate their career path...

http://http://www.net54baseball.com/...1&d=1544487620

This description pretty much just told most people you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Have you read Mr. Nash's post on JSA mistakes?

This is an interesting read! It's long, but worth it, imo.
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlo...nt?oid=2505680

I particularly liked the "Cheetah" certified sig story. :eek:

But there seems to be no ceiling to PSA and JSA's abilities. In 2010, a dealer submitted the "signature" of Cheetah, the chimpanzee purported to have appeared in the Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan serials of the 1930s. Despite the likelihood that they had no exemplars on file for primates, JSA deemed the scrawl authentic.

As it turns out, Cheetah was an imposter whose owner duped the public before a 2008 Washington Post article uncovered the truth: Weissmuller's chest-thumping co-star was long deceased.

"I don't remember the particulars of that," JSA's James Spence says of his endorsement. "I'm not prepared to answer that. I'd have to refresh my memory. I think it was done tongue in cheek."

JSA would have needed only to perform a cursory Google search to put the chimp's penmanship in context.

Just how do places like Coaches Corner and others stay in business?
Millions a year on fake and forgeries but no one bats an eye? :confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCGxsGelS50

T206 Scandal
 

Unfortunately, Coaches Corner for years hid behind & utilized "TPG" services like STAT or Frangipani or Morales or their own certs, all of their business models had the same motives & the common premise. It was a limited but very decorative certificate, the actual wording hid behind the quoted caveat "in their expert opinion" or "to the best of their ability & knowledge" and collectors not as knowledgable would see a "bargain" and go for it with their pocketbooks. Most of their material was fake and most legit autograph dealers did speak out...This happened for years thru SCD and later through their on line premise and actually well "branded & advertised" name......it was obviously a diabolical way of taking novices and taking their money, many unfortunate collectors did not even know they were taken advantage of. In later years, the internet has helped reveal the obvious years of crap being sold but again there are non educated customers.

At least this one and the auto is not on the card itself...:p

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-t206-H...t9mA:rk:1:pf:0

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

I wrote something similar earlier in this thread. The description at the MAB show is 100% accurate and true. Its data entry and they didn't watch the items being signed. You could bring a ball that wasn't signed at the show and get a sticker as long as that signer is in attendance.

I have been to the card show but haven't gone to the JSA table to witness that process. So I can't verify the second part. But based on what I see at the MAB table I would believe this.

I'll be at the induction this year like always. When I'm at the card show I'll check out the JSA table to see what happens.

When TPG's promote their services and advertise the astounding prices that their authenticated items have achieved then yes they do hold some skin in the game. Would those items that they promote have received the same prices had they not come with their authentication? We all know the answer. They are saying that their authentication was what gave the buyers of those items the "approval" or peace of mind to spend the type of money that was spent.

I know the TPG's have insurance in case an item is destroyed in their possession but how about being bonded/insured on items that they authenticate over a certain dollar level that way everyone is protected. If one is paying $300 to have an autograph like Ruth authenticated, I don't think a little extra would be an issue to spend to have some true peace of mind in case that item is found to be a fake down the line.

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

One note on the Sal Bando, and yes that should have been stopped BUT... the TV piece was done during a show where Bando was, ...signing.

Normal people would presume, and I get that can be dangerous, that any Bando auto they would see that weekend would be good. That is "gotcha" journalism and there are far better targets

Rich

If my mechanic quoted me $2,000 for brakes, and did not know how to properly spell “brakes”, you’re correct, that would indeed raise a red flag.

Cheetah’s dead???? Ooooooohhhhhhhh Nooooooooooooooo…

:eek:

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

David -

I believe what you are saying because your description of the MAB show is 100% accurate. I’m sure (hopeful) a little more scrutiny goes into the process when items are sent in. But witnessing these types of things certainly cast doubts.

I finally found the Doyle sale and it appears it might be unrelated to the
Marquard that was purchased by f***f or the large group that was
purchased by n***e.

Attachment 337686


In the last recorded sale of the Doyle prior to it being sold signed was
a purchase by s***s with a feedback between 500-999.

Attachment 337685

So we have the Marquard that was purchased by f***f and the following that
were purchased by n***e

Baker
Barbeau
Cicotte
Conroy
Flick
Livingston
Murray
Parent
Rucker
Sullivan
Tannehill
Zimmerman

That leaves only the Rhoades sale but the ebay seller is unknown so
it will be hard to find that sale.

So whodunnit?

Haven't you heard ??
 

..we've changed the title of the thread to "cold popcorn and slow crickets"....

..kidding ---- any day now....any day now...

..

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!"

Listen
Do you want to know a secret?
Do you promise not to tell?
Whoa whoa whoa
Closer
Let me whisper in your ear
Say the words you long to hear.....

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

To get back on task with this thread, that is another great find. That one had a lot of work done to it. Please continue to keep up the work.

There are 2 responses autograph 'opinionators' can make. They believe it is either fake or legit. In the aggregate, the fake opinion is much easier and quicker to make. The legit, not nearly as much. In my view, the real ones opined as fakes, while they do occur, are statistically insignificant compared to the fake ones opined as real.

Their reputation is based more on the fake ones they claim are legit than the legit ones they claim are fake.

How on earth has the person not been caught yet? Are they just building the case (which could mean the proverbial rabbit hole goes deeper)?

So you do have some skin in the game and admit fraud is rampant with sigs and trimmed cards but because you make money off of them, then they have a purpose in the hobby. :confused:

How can you say there is no purpose for TPG's and TPA's? Think about someone you trust in the hobby. Now think about what that person might do if they're faced with a financial hardship. Would that person be tempted to cert their own fraudulent inventory knowing their name attached to it is enough for people to buy them? I would think they might and that's the problem with an individual vs an entire company.

.... or.... that company sees a revenue stream by 'loose' authentication standards, and knowing the public (ie multiple individuals) interprets 'opinion' to be 'authentication', continues to provide that revenue stream. Or if you'd rather, one company's whole origination is based on a 'loose' authentication.

The point being.... that one is not more susceptible to corruption than the other.

Could not disagree more. It would take an entire company working together to perpetuate the fraud you're talking about vs one person. Also if a TPG did what you're saying they fall out of favor in the hobby and become obsolete, which we've all seen happen to a once prominent TPG who is no longer around and other TPG's no one puts stock in.

I could not disagree more with "entire company". That is blatantly not true. It only takes a couple people to perpetuate company wide fraud. Look at any fraud case you can find. The "entire company" didn't know. If fact, most of the company didn't know.

I'm not saying TPG/TPA's don't provide value. They do. But trust should never be provided blindly. And to believe that "company wide" involvement is needed, is to edge toward that blind trust.

And even more importantly, germane to this thread, and also said before. Opinion is not the same as authentication.

You have hit the nail on the head. This guy is an auto dealer and his business in large part hinges on consumer confidence in the "authentication" business. He seems to do lots of business with the TPA and thinks he knows what is going on, has probably been told what is going on, but has clearly never seen it happen first hand. so yes, he has skin in the game and cannot see this house of cards clearly as he is too invested.

I have no skin in the autograph game - precisely for what has come to light in this thread. While the above that you shared is a great THEORY - taking into consideration the imperfection of markets - it is often NOT how it works in practice. I have read a number of articles and watched a specific video done under cover catching Spence authenticating a signature that the under cover reporter had signed hours earlier and confronted by the ball player (Sal Bando). Problem is - most collectors do not do the same level of due diligence and do not know about these incidents - as most will never read this thread! So history has shown - there is no "market correction" as you suggest - just the continued proliferation of greed, forged autographs, altered cards and worthless opinions. While I do not know who they are, I understand there are guys doing this for long enough that the small few "in the know" rely on for truly expert opinions - guys who may have made honest mistakes, but have stood the test of time without the repeated carelessness and controversy and apparent negligence as some mentioned in this thread. Forgery is a crime. Is claiming to be an "expert" when your history has shown (imo) that you are not? Outside of netting you more money - how is this all possibly good for the hobby?

I said nothing about trimmed or altered cards. you added that little tid bit to try and deflect from the topic at hand. not applicable here. The authentication game is faulty from the start. first off, where do these "experts" get their training? you will probably never get an answer from any of the TPA on that one. if they did answer the question, they would probably say their experts have years and years and years of experience..... well, where did that experience come from? I believe both Spence and Steve Grad "studied" under everyones favorite, Bill Mastro.

One can have all the experience in the world and it is all worthless if the person they are apprenticed under is not qualified themselves. remember, only perfect practice makes perfect. everything else is just practiced mistakes.

It is relatively easy to create these forgeries, but the "experts" seem to have a much harder time finding them. at some point, collectors at large will realize the "authenticated" signature is nothing more than a piece of paperwork, and really doesnt amount to a hill of beans

You’re right. I’m trying to deflect because you have me all tied up with your genius ramblings. I’m going to go lay by my dish completely defeated.

sounds good.

How can you say it's so easy to make these forgeries? People were fooled for years in some cases. And not just the TPA's, but people who have been in the hobby for a very long time and might consider themselves experts in this very specific area.

Lots of dummies in this hobby. Lots of dummies in this hobby who seem to want to be fooled. Lots of dummies in this hobby who appoint themselves as experts.

Again to the point of why I don't collect autos. As a kid, the fact that a card was "old" was cool enough for me. Look at this thing that came out of a pack 30, 50, even 75 years ago! At least for items like tobacco cards or Goudeys, it seems a little too good to be true for all of those that are coming out now to have been autographed as well. But to the points made earlier - people get all romanticized about something and can lose reasonable objectivity. I get it.

there are artists who would not have much problem at all replicating the shaky signatures of men in their 70's and 80's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbgxFF0SaU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCGxsGelS50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NADYoGCl1Mc

There's a ton of these vids available but as we have seen and learned, likely not many know these are available and should be watched before purchasing anything signed. :(

not sure whether to thank you
 

or not - your forgeries news links linked to more links and I've already spent an hour looking at them. I bookmarked the Halper one to savor after my gin game...…….

Forged t206’s
 

Any update on who the culprit(s) are?

The parties that have been the most affected know the name and are still working with authorities. I just got off of the phone with one of them and there is no new news so the situation is the same. If someone has some emergency issue, or thinks they have bad signed cards from this same person, they should PM me and we can discuss it. I know some people hate that the name hasn't been made public but as of this moment it's not the most prudent thing, imo, or the opinions of the few people who have had to write refund checks.

Thanks for the update and I realize you can't divulge too much information, but is it a name we'll recognize?

Thanks for your understanding.
No, it is not a hobby name anyone would know of....I don't believe. At least the auctioneers I have spoken with didn't know the name, as well myself.

Identity
 

Next to REA I’ve written the biggest refund check for a single card as I authorized Brian to withhold the $21,000 that I would have received from the sale of the Baker that I had purchased from REA in 2015. I should also add that Brian refunded me for the $9,000 I paid for the card originally, so although I lost $12,000, I’m not out anything. I’ve had two separate people message me with the same information regarding the culprit. The first person wanted me to release the information, but then changed his mind at the request of the investigators. Because I’m an attorney I felt that the communication was confidential and so I did not release it at that time. However, another individual has now asked that I release the information on his behalf and since I see no compelling reason not to I am going to disclose it. I practice exclusively criminal defense and I can guarantee that there is absolutely no legitimate reason that law enforcement would not want this information released. Here is the information I have regarding the identity of the subject/suspect:

eBay ID: givepeaceachance14
eBay location: Girard, OH

It's not too late to vote for Jason as the #1 Net 54 poster. :)

full name?

This is an interesting article:

http://www.wfmj.com/story/35123889/y...raud-to-prison

and address so the net54 mob knows where to find him

There can be no legitimate reason for authorities to say they prefer the info not be made public yet? And you are guaranteeing it. Cool.

According to you, you are out nothing financially and REA is out (a lot more) than you mentioned and this was ok to do? I am glad you aren't out anything as others are. Great move here..