Perhaps JSA should change to JSO, it would seem to be more fitting and accurate. JSOpinions.....

Wondering if he will opine

You beat me to it. I was going to suggest Professional Sports Opionators, or Sportscard Opinions..

I agree. They are giving opinions and their opinions should be treated as opinions. However, there should be a level of competency and due care involved. Their feet can fairly be held to the fire by the hobby for that-- and certainly hobbyists can and should point out when their conclusions are wrong.

Of course you can fault them. Implicit in the opinion is the representation that the grader/authenticator is competent to render an opinion. If that isn't true...

I think it would be great to hold TPGs, AHs and others involved in this accountable, BUT...

There are approximately 10,000 members on this board, not all active. That represents a small fraction of the collecting population in this country (not to mention the world). And while I've read about specific instances within this forgery scam when an AH or someone would make a customer whole after selling a forgery, what is being done in the broader hobby? I don't think I have heard of any AH or TPG addressing this in a public way, and with the authorities keeping things close to the vest (for better or for worse), how much is this scandal getting the attention of the larger collecting population?

I went to a local show shortly after this whole thread got started and the news broke. And nobody I spoke with (it was just a handful of dealers) had heard yet, and none of them were members here. Granted, this is a small show in a smaller city, but that sample size might indicate that this is flying below the radar of a vast many collectors.

I hope that EVERYONE in the hobby is aware of this, and thanks to everyone for spreading the word (including Rich and everyone at SCD with a couple stories on it). I think that with the knowledge and passion of the board members here (and most of you have forgotten more than what I'll ever know about collecting), we can put some pressure on TPGs, AHs, etc. But I think we'll need to keep spreading the word and getting people riled up about it beyond this corner of the collecting community.

fake
 

I have to chuckle over the statement " their not comfortable with that sig, or yes, they are comfortable with that one "

Guys spending all kinds of crazy money based of the high and mighty word of these grading company's ..and now that the heat is on...its " well, comfortable, somewhat comfortable, warm and comfortable" ...

Im sure when these company's started up way back...they never used " comfortable" in their mission statement ! ...

More like - Guarantee Promise, Authenticated , etc..

Im " comfortable " that Ive never collected autographed cards

I am curious how the consignor of the Doyle will be compensated in a situation like this.

Part of the problem is that they call themselves "authenticators".

Why does JSA charge more for certain signatures (Ruth, Gehrig, etc) than they do others? Is it because they put more time into it? I doubt it.

At what point do the AHs stop using these LOAs, CERTs, etc. as a selling point/feature? For the most part I would trust PSA, SGC and Beckett for grading cards but they should probably consider getting out of the signature "authentication" business.

After this mess, I would think JSA would re-think their business plan and start grading cards because they seem to have a difficult time "authenticating" signatures. They may have a better chance of spotting a fake card.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1544302248

How do you know they're not? I've never read a single LOA that mentions anything other than an opinion.

If you hold yourself out as an expert, which they clearly do, you are making an implicit representation about your expertise. What good is the opinion otherwise? The evidence of all their mistakes suggests to me they are less expert than they claim.

It would suggest the same thing about the people who bought them. They were sure they were real too and I'd think at least some of them think themselves to possess all the relevant knowledge needed to make what are mostly accurate assessments of cards put in front of them. Sometimes you get fooled.

I am sure some of the forgeries would have fooled anyone, but at the same time I think it's likely that many got through as a result of incompetence. I can't post the link, but read Mr. Nash's piece on JSA.

Santa auto's
 

I am a little concerned that someone is going to see this thread and start forging fake Santa Claus auto's. :(

If the flip said Snodgrass by mistake one of the geniuses would scoop it right up.

Is it this one, Peter?

"JSA & Jimmy Spence Expose Their Own TPA Scam Linked To Fraudulent Mathewson LOAs (UPDATE)"

Quite the read, and it really makes one wonder just how many "players" are involved in all of this??

James Spence Jr. claims on his website that he “has built a world wide reputation as the premier autograph authenticator in the world.” Spence’s claims have been bolstered by the sports auction houses and other outlets like eBay which endorse and in some cases pay for his services. These associations have deceptively bolstered his credibility in the industry. Spence’s profile was first boosted by disgraced auctioneer and convicted felon Bill Mastro who did the same when he elevated Spence’s status as the primary authenticator for Mastro Auctions and PSA/DNA between 1998 to 2002.

Spence also makes claims that his services are used by the FBI, IRS and the U. S. Postal Service, however, sources affiliated with the FBI have confirmed several times over the past few years that Spence has been the subject of on-going investigations into the third-party authentication business. In addition, Spence has lied about his lack of formal training claiming to have worked with the late autograph guru Charles Hamilton and has been implicated for stealing images of a specific collector’s items and intellectual property which he usurped for his own exemplar files. Spence also falsely claims that he has “an exemplar library which is second to none in the autograph industry.” Spence also claims to have 700,000 files of exemplars. It’s now safe to say his file on Christy Mathewson includes dozens upon dozens of forgeries from Won in the Ninth.

I think it's great that these forgeries have been exposed, and I'm sure there will be others. I love the detective work that is going into this. And I hope it scares the TPAs into tightening their procedures and getting better at what they do. It seems to me that the recent sudden influx of signed old cards might have raised some alarms with them, although I guess it would be easy to explain as the result of the rising prices bringing more of them to market. What I don't understand, though, is the chorus of those wishing to shut down the TPAs and, presumably, go back to the wild west days of yore in the 80s and 90s, when a show of any size would feature dealers with stacks of index cards and old autograph book paper with every name in sports whose autograph collectors were willing to shell out money for, many of them appearing to have similar characteristics as if drawn by the same hand. Those of us who set up at shows back then would pass those tables, shake our heads and mutter, "what are you going to do?" and just move on, resigning ourselves to the old saw that "a fool and his money are soon parted." Smarter collectors gravitated to the dealers who seemed to know what they were doing and whose offerings didn't include the aforementioned stacks of index cards. When the TPAs started coming in, the market responded quickly and positively to the idea of having experts examine autographs for authenticity before being sold, and slowly but surely it became necessary for even the most knowledgeable dealers to get their wares certified in order to be able to sell them. As their expertise became less and less important to their own business and more and more valuable to the TPAs, the best of them followed the money and became authenticators. Even among the few dealers that remain, how many of their autographs haven't been OK'd by the big four TPAs? This evolution, really a revolution, of the hobby has it's good points and bad points from a collector's perspective, and there are many good arguments to be made as to the pros and cons thereof, but it seems to me that the arguments end when the question becomes "what does the marketplace think of the advent of TPAs into the hobby?" The answer to that question is irrefutable.
So now there is this scandal uncovering mistakes made by our watchdogs, following on other scandals in the past, and surely preceding more to come. We've all chuckled over the incidences of TPAs rejecting pieces that happened to be accompanied by their own prior LOAs, or turning down autographs that had just been signed and witnessed ten minutes earlier at the same show, or differences of opinion between the so-called experts themselves. These, and other such indicators of a lack of perfection in the process we rely upon and pay for and particularly in the infallibility of those trusted with implementing it should rightly give us pause and question whether this really is the best system for assuring that we are getting what we think we are. But having lived through the evolution of the hobby to where we are today, I would ask two questions of those who advocate scrapping this system and going back to the freewheeling times of the past: First, tell me how many bad autographs you think have been slabbed or given LOAs by the big boy TPAs compared to those that are good? Give me a percentage. And secondly, describe to me a system that does a better job of weeding out forgeries and providing confidence to the average Joe collector that he's getting what he's paying for?

Have any of the 3rd Party Authenticators responded to any of this? We've heard a couple of responses from Auction Houses, but nothing from any of the TPAs involved (to my knowledge anyway... please correct me if I'm wrong).

How do we really know how seriously they are taking this matter? Historically they've tended to silently brush these things under the rug, and let the passing of time lessen the severity. Does anyone know what measures or safeguards they are planning to implement as a result of this?

Some of those forgeries look really sketchy, and after the reveals, I was shocked to see that many of those ever passed. Especially the one with the highest dollar value (Baker). Even if they won't address it here on net54, I'd love to see some type of press release or announcement posted on their own websites. Something to indicate new action being taken, in order to re-instill confidence among their customer base.

But frankly (and unfortunately), I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Well Hank, I have no idea as to your questions. But I do want to comment on the "wild west" days preTPGs.

They were wild, mail order w/o ever seeing the card, dealers offer 40% on yours cards, get home later to find the smallest pinhole in your prized find of the day, etc. It was also pre-internet as well and I think a lot of things would have changed simply with that, eBay was a HUGE advance for the hobby at the time.

We also spent much more time educating ourselves, digging through piles of cards and looking at others cards just for the sake of looking. Now, the TPGs have knocked down that barrier of entry bringing more into the hobby which is always a good thing.

A decent chuck of folks are circling back though, raw sets being built in binders seems more popular now than a few years ago. People are buying the card more than the holder relatively speaking.

A mesh of the wild west days learning hobby lessons mixed with the technology and ability to interact with each other today would be perfect to me. Treat the TPGs as an opinion, but you owe it to yourself to educate yourself, hell, that's the fun of it I thought. In the end though us collectors are probably just as knowledgeable if not more than a TPG, that's also a good thing.

I agree everything in your post. Every collector SHOULD do it their way, and not treating the TPAs as gods is not only rational but healthy. Also, many things about the old days really were better: cards looked much better before slabs, and shows with dealers are more fun than auctions and Ebay. As I said, though, for the "average Joe collector" with a job and a family and limited time but who loves collecting, the TPAs are a godsend and many of them wouldn't be participating without the relative assurance they provide.

I don't know how serious the TPG's are taking this though if you think back to the last year or so I remember quite a few threads on this board where collectors were complaining that they were rejecting many more autographs than in the past. Having no skin in this part of the game myself it seems the TPG's may have had an inkling that something was off but just kept taking in the submissions and then rejecting them - keep the money flowing...

Do the TPGs still charge you when they reject the auto. I know PSA will refund your cash if they don't slab your card. Unless you are known to send in a lot of bad cards. Then they will charge you for the bad cards even though they don't slab them.

Yes....
 

Yes they do. It's quite a racket really!

Mike

If you say so. I went back to the store and looked at all of them and every single one was different. If you had presented the information the way it was presented at Blowout or even posted a link to where you got the info I would have responded the same way I did here. You didn't even respond after I told you I went back and looked. I had no idea you were butthurt over it. I'll try to avoid hurting your feelings in the future. :rolleyes:

Link to the thread where Brock thinks I blew him off like he had no idea what an autopen signature looks like.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262175

Actually, you should want an expert to be paid to make an assessment of the item (real, fake, identity, age, new, old, whatever). It wouldn't be good if he was paid, or paid differently, depending on what is the decision. That's a way to corrupt the opinion process. If that's the way card grading/authenticating or anything is done, it's wrong.

I don't formally examine items anymore, but if I am paid I'm being paid to examine the item and give an assessment as to what it is. I'm being paid for my expertise (and time), and it's the same expertise involved in identifying a real item as it is fake. Obviously, for the collector, auction house or museum, being informed that something is a modern reproduction or fake is valuable information.

PSA charges you if they slab the card or not. The only time they don't is if the card is factory cut larger or smaller. If you send them a fake or altered card, you are charged. If you send them a fake autograph, they charge you. SGC and BGS always charge you.

The only instance when you are NOT charged for a "failed" autograph authentication if they are unable to render an opinion. In my personal experience, this has been in instances when the signature was too light for them to judge. I have been refunded my authentication fees in these instances.

Who is the culprit?
 

At the risk of getting publicly flogged, may I dare ask if the known forger has been identified for certain yet?

To the best of my knowledge, with the several cards bought by the 1 as yet publicly unnamed buyer, it is beyond a reasonable doubt they had something to do with the fraud or they know where those specific cards went to. Authorities told the one person I have interacted with, and who has spoken with authorities, that they prefer the name not be made public. That is the last info I received. I know lots of people want the name made public but I am leaving that to the authorities decision for now. The one thing I don't want to do is hinder an investigation. Hopefully more info will come out soon.

..

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn’t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can’t believe the arguements that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

Except you'd hope someone who is an expert would go easy on someone who sent in a really bad fake.


My one experience with stamps was at the international show in 2006. They had some experts manning an "antiques roadshow" sort of booth with a 2 item limit. I brought a couple I'd spent a bunch of time figuring out what was up with them. One I felt was good, the other not so good. (Genuine item, but fake perforations to make it an expensive item instead of a fairly cheap one. )

The time it took him to tell after I said I was pretty confident about one but not the other and handed them to him was well under a minute for both combined. It was good to know I'd been right even if it did take me much longer to reach the same conclusion. I've since sent the real one in for an actual certificate. :)

In the case of autographs, being paid what they ask on a difficult one isn't really all that expensive. But I'd hope is someone sent in an obviously pre printed or rubber stamped Ruth or something they wouldn't still charge the high fee.

People pay for an educated opinion, not just an opinion. I personally feel bad for anyone who was defrauded.

I respectfully disagree with both of you.

Imo, and although I am still learning as I go here, when I first back into the hobby and realized we now had "Authenticators" in all forms of the hobby, including signatures, I took that as a guarantee that if I submitted something that I had questions/concerns about, and, depending on what the "Expert Authenticator" deemed, I could take that to the bank that it was legit or not legit.

It's the same, imo, as finding an old painting at a flea market or something similar but not knowing, once you discovered a popular artist might have painted it, whether it is authentic or not so you send it in to a well known authenticator to find out for sure.

I am not an art collector so I don't know the ins and outs of those types of authenticators, but I am pretty sure, depending on who you send it to, that you can pretty much guarantee that whatever they say will likely stick and be the truth.

With cards and memorabilia, despite the claims of being "Experts" "The best in the business" "World's Leading", yada, yada, yada, you are still telling me the only real thing to trust is my gut?

I know now what you're saying to be true, but I guarantee, as we have seen in the past and just recently, I am not the only one who thinks this way. When you read on TPA sites that they "Authenticate" and are the "Experts" in their field, have certificates, letters of authenticity, etc, you trust those claims, (especially if you aren't an experienced, seasoned collector like me) and put all your faith in them.

Sadly, as I have learned, much/all of those claims don't mean squat and aren't worth the paper they are written on.

It's quite the racket these TPAs have going. Throw out some frivolous, meaningless claims and then watch the money roll in. :mad:

"Never get cheated."

T206 scandal
 

After reading recent posts, and being that I was around a long time in this hobby/business, here is a quick summary of what I think really is important to the industry regarding autographs:

Pre TPG's-It was the wild west....a collector had to rely and know people that actually handled many type of autographs such as Charles Hamilton, Robert White, Max Schraeger, Bill P.(long last name, very knowledgable), Richard Simon, Lawrence(from Westbury, LI that runs monthly auctions, forgot his last name), but even then, there were many "experts" that were BS...some even ran large autograph auctions and had an agenda in that they graded their own sales merchandise and authenticated their own auction items!

Since TPG-Its has been better in that most of the crap has been filtered out and even if TPG make errors, they do have a larger exemplar file than the average collector. FUNDAMENTALLY, AUTOGRAPHS NOT RECEIVED in person or from legal/government documents are a leap of faith to some degree. The major authenticators now, well none of these guys were in the hobby before 1980's and they started as collectors, they just spent lots more time in acquiring knowledge and files. Unfortunately, some of their findings were and are wrong but that was always a problem....

"Reputable Companies" like PSA,SGC,Beckett,JSA...well most of the graders are very knowledgable, have acquired vast libraries of historical item sample. If collectors require certs, those that issue the certs with siome educated opinion deserve to be paid for their educated opinions and time depending on Supply(time) vs. Demand(the need to get a cert) and what the free market will bear.
If a collector wants them to do a thorough examination to get his "CERT" then it makes sense with the very nature of that part of the collectible world, that the THE BUYER should do their homework also. THE NATURE OF THE BUSINESS IS STILL CAVIET EMPTOR. DONT BUY ANYTHING unless you feel the percentages are vastly are in your favor FIRST! By not educating yourselves, you are MORE dependent on 3rd party graders and hence the more the cost of the grading will be...

It is IMPERATIVE for collectors to educate themselves going forward and look at as many public exemplars as possible, talk to quality & reliable dealers that have been around over 30+ years and have seen more items, just to have some check & balances if you plan to plunk down real $$$...It is better now than it was but its still a leap of faith and the free market will determine future prices and demand depending on these mentioned factors.

Dale,
You’re being naive. There is more forgery in the art world than in almost all antiques. Multi million paintings shown to have been painted years after the artist died. Google search it if you have any questions.

It’s not that I don’t feel bad for some of the guys on this board and the current t206 scandal. I do. Blindly trusting authenticators and auctioneers is dumb. As others have eluded to, specifically the Baker t206, if you can’t see there’s an issue with that than I don’t know what else to say. Many of those cards look like they were signed yesterday or in the same light flowing hand and signed with the same pen. In fact they probably were. I know it’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but many of those clearly have issues.

I will also add that I buy and sell autos and I make mistakes myself. Sometimes I disagree with authenticators and it’s frustrating because items that don’t pass are tough to sell. If I realize I made a mistake I blame myself for not doing more research, not someone for giving me their opinion.

Yes. I've given a lot of free opinions via emailed pics.

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

This is why MOST opt for a second opinion, or 2 or 3 estimates, when something doesnt smell or feel right. Kind of like the Marquard, which started the whole thread.

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

Id have to disagree here. All four of those professions can held accountant and legally prosecuted and it happens all the time. Fraud and malpractice as well as a pile of other charges can accompany those and do all the time.

And my guess is you do perform some homework on this stuff. If you went in to see the doctor for a cough and s/he put you on an antidepressant you wouldn't educate yourself at all? You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information? If you normally get a 5k income tax return and get a new accountant and all of sudden are getting 18k in return you wouldn't follow that up? We do it all the time.

In the end we are responsible for ourselves, medically, financially and everything else. It used to a right of passage in hobby, otherwise you just would get ripped off until you did. If you don't have time to research your "hobby" spending thousands of dollars then maybe you shouldn't be doing this if you place 100% with someone else's opinion. I thought the educating yourself was part of why we did this, its enjoyable, it starts friendships and is a major reason I am part of the hobby.

I now know I was but when I first got back into the hobby and seen these services and the claims they made plus all on here who utilized them, I assumed they were above board.


Exactly, and why most send things into the "Experts" or "World leading" companies to remove any doubts.


The only thing that would be easier is to just print the money yourself! :(

When companies come out with claims/logos that read "Experts" "World's Best", "World leading", "Guaranteed" "Largest, most trusted" "Never get Taken", etc, etc, etc, they are implying that they know what they are doing.

It's easy, imo, for some who have been in the hobby of collecting for years and years and maybe even before we had these TPA's, to recognize/know the things that have been said in this thread, but I also know there are many every year that join or rejoin the hobby, like me, who don't know all these things.
If these TPA companies weren't so forthright with their claims and logos and put a disclaimer right on the front page stating their grading analysis are only an "opinion", then maybe that would help newbies somewhat to get 2nd and 3rd opinions, but, like I have been saying, when these claims are implied that they are the experts, world leaders, etc, then why would anybody do that?
Look on Ebay, Auctions, etc, and what do people see? They see all 3 of the big TPA's flips so why would they not trust them and think their opinions are the best and legit? :confused:

forge
 

Yep,
then when the heat is on..or somebody calls them out..it becomes -

Were pretty comfortable with that sig

It "seems " pretty good

Im" leaning" towards its should be OK

Every LOA I've ever read beats you over the head with the fact that it's an opinion. Please post any letter from a leading TPG that mentions a guarantee. You won't find one.

I think you missed my point as well. My point was that sometimes forgeries are so good that they manage to fool everyone.

I have been the hobby since I was 8 in 1985 prior to the TPGs so I have around 30 years experience in the hobby, I sure would hope that helps me make decisions opposed to be here for a year or so. But the premise is the same whether you started in '85 or 2015, learn as much as possible.

I thought all businesses thought they were 'the best', Ive seen it advertised that way all over the world. A business can make any claim like that and an awful lot do...that doesn't make it so though.

As a RN I feel I have seen change a lot in the medical field, its amazing how many patients have no idea what their diagnosis are and they expectations that we just take care of it. Its a very passive approach in my opinion that gives you a scapegoat any time something went wrong. I will preach educate yourself until my last breath, you are just shorting yourself if you don't.

This all could of been easily avoided.

If submitted for that purple label thing they would of found out all of the forging

Once you go purple label you never go back..

fake
 

Hmm ..Purple Labels.....interesting

Odd and Even buses ?... that's a very interesting idea Mr. Norton