There have been no civil lawsuits. Please correct me if i am wrong. It was you that said 'in an unlikely event spit hits the fan etc' in regards to PSA and stock price falling due to what i assume would be issues with liability with the trimming/grading issues. Thus, thats where i came up with the term unlikely event about something negative impacting PSA through all of this......dont need connections.....

if you think its likely PSA stock will plummet due to the scandal, again pleased correct me if i am wrong on what you meant.

Here is the quote... just citing what you said...yet get criticized for saying what is likely or unlikely. Never said was an insider....

This one wont even make the Mexican Maraca Mt. Rushmore....damages under $10,000

So Peter is your source as to what will “likely” happen criminally and civilly? And otherwise your knowledge going forward is based on the lack of any present civil litigation as per mentioned on the board? Have you done any searching of lawsuits nationally in any online databases? Spoken to the FBI? Spoken to any lawyers representing targets or subjects in a criminal investigation? Guessing no on all counts.

I am worthless as a source of anything but speculation, Jake, I assure you.:cool:

Regarding the Vespucci Card that magically received the phantom 2-point bump, for the corrupt "frequent submitter" Johnny Adams Jr...

For what they charge, you'd think PSA could find a way to get the card positioned straight within the holder. People always defend professional grading with the excuse "I just like the way they look in the holders". To me, these tilting "condom cards" look dreadful. What an ugly way to display a $6,500.00 piece of cardboard. :(

This card, on the other hand, looks fabulous in the holder.

Oops.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=6077

Makes you wonder how many of these 1950's 9's and 10's have been
worked on with all the ones that keep getting pointed out by BODA.

N300 Clarkson, SGC 3 in Brockelman and Luckey to PSA 5.5 in Mile High.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=275

It looks to me like the right corners possibly were sharpened as well more visible from the back.

The hits keep coming......:-(

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

yet thus far seems to be an non issue and consensus of this forum is not much will change with PSA.....i would think if a poll was made, most people will think nothing will change but thats just my opinion...someone can always create a poll and prove me wrong...

So was that Gehrig card 'addressed' or is this info you cant share.... .......you made a a big point that this altered gehrig card was 'being addressed' was it?

You will probably start with an insult but it was you that volunteered the card with 'being addressed' I am only asking you something in which you volunteered information and asking for a follow up, not sure what is wrong with that...

Said this numerous times PSA has a Teflon Non Stick Liability/accountability business mode. Along with two of the biggest marketing hoaxes in the industry pop report and registry. This company will get through this just like all the other scandals. It will come out stronger in the long run/everyone else will take the fall. People are making to much money on their products......they know many are backed into a corner and have to use them for the most part. I’m referring to the major auction houses, dealers, and big eBay sellers. They’re not gonna bite the hand that feeds them. So what if they have to fire people if any have been tired to being paid off for gift grades bfd.
They have a brilliant business, I have to give them credit on that’s.

so basically you will be saying nothing will likely happen against them?

Jake I can’t predict the future, I don’t know sir it’s all my theory. To me.....people with big money don’t like to be told your PSA graded cards are Sh$t they are on blowout as altered. They just think others are jealous. To many people need PSA for them to bite of their nose to spite their face.....they won’t do it.
I’m not a lawyer.......It Is an opinion only biased company...... you know how many times I try to sell a raw card I get asked do you guarantee PSA will grade this or oh I can’t pay that for a raw card PSA might call it a 6 not a 7. It’s all mental they still LOVE EAT COWER AT THE PSA THRONE...trying to get a lot of victims in court to nail them for big bucks seems very difficult to me can’t even get them to come forward. They’re going back to whom they bought the cards from. And many still don’t know....We are just a few blow hards on a message board. I think it’s all going to be worked out behind the scenes.
Short answer No PSA walks away squeaky clean.

Actually you started with an insult by quoting one about you. Congrats on that.

I just wanted to point out that you are speculating and have zero knowledge as to what “I hearing .. will likely happen.” A poll is not a substitute for knowledge. I wouldn’t want anyone to mistake your speculation for actual knowledge is all. However as soon as someone hires you to sue PSA or to represent them in connection with the criminal investigation then maybe your claim that “I hearing ... nothing will likely happen” could at least be based in fact.

I 100% agree. The only good part of all this is the BLEEPING A-Holes in on it have been very very quiet on the forums. No calling people idiots and morons and telling BS lies about how honest PSA/Beckett or the hobbies scumbag sellers are.

so you didnt answer the question on the Gehrig

Also saying only a lawyer for either side are the only people to have knowledge is a falsehood. There are lots of other ways to get knowledge. I have said a number of times i am giving an opinion. My opinion is shared by many others such as Ben and Johnny which i agree with 100% in the last 2 posts.

I don’t answer your questions. Do I look like someone who answers to you?

As for your opinion, I don’t care what you think other than to point out that you shouldn’t pass it off as fact as to what “I likely hearing ... will happen.” Sorry if I inferred from that gem of clarity that you were offering a guess as opposed to facts someone told you.

eh it seems like you do care to answer considering all the posts you made about me. Again thats just my opinion based on your 30 posts on this thread

so the Gehrig card that is subject matter on this thread you said 'is being addressed' and now that considerable time as passed you wont answer it.

I can only give an opinion as to what your non answer means....

You did give an opinion that 'the hobby has been rocked' My opinion is that i dont see that at this point....

Others have said what they think likely and not likely will happen but you dont seem to care what they think , but when i say it you apparently care.

I am surprised you care so much about someone that lives on their mothers couch...

I didn’t say you lived on your mom’s couch. I said your office is probably your mom’s house. Based on your posts I think that was a good guess.

I hear you, Jeffery has still never answered if his client PWCC is going to send out gift baskets to their supporters like Mastro did. I know I offered my support IF the gift basket was nice enough.:D:rolleyes:

The ignore button is a helluva drug!

i stand corrected, i am surprised you care about someone who's office is in their mom's house. I think you hold the mortgage to it so you can foreclose anytime so Ill watch what i say.

I think based on my posts and your reactions, i have made a good guess. We each can have our own opinions..

Still no answer on the Gehrig card....

Did Mastro basket include scissors?

What gehrig Card ?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5684


We were told its 'being addressed' a ways back. This is right on topic for this thread...just saying

The guarantee is not ambiguous at all. It covers marketplace purchasers (that was the whole point) and certainly applies to altered cards that were originally given numerical grades. PSA does not dispute this. The issue, rather, is application of the guarantee in individual cases, where they can control their payout just by sticking with the original grade.

In theory they can also change the rules and say properly 'restored' cards can still be a PSA 6 etc

You mean change their definition of what they consider unacceptable alterations? I suppose, but it's hard to believe they will given 25+ years of operating under the same definition.

Rules do change. There may be small print to read that may say that as well, who knows. When its about subjectivity there is always much more leeway...

I sent mine back :)

Possibly, depends on how the lawyering goes... if it is proven that PWCC does guarantee a profit, then the decision becomes what is reasonable???

PWCC to me has never Guaranteed a profit on their cards. Again it’s just an opinion. It’s marketing.

Still People hate on PWCC I’m not saying they’re saints, not by any stretch!

What I’m saying is if PSA was doing their job correctly and honestly we wouldn’t have these numerous issues. PSA is a Central Figure Of Most of the Problems In fact they’re the Major Facilitator of 99% of all Altered Slabbed Cards. I hope some serious lawyering turns the tables and throws this back on their asses bigly.

Not 99 percent. There are some major modern card doctors who have used Beckett heavily.

Correct, tens of thousands of trimmed modern sitting in BGS slabs including some of the hobby’s highest profile cards.

My point is throw it back on all the TPG’s whom have outed altered cards slabbed with grades In their holders... PSA Beckett and SGC.

2020 PSA Service Pricing and Submission Update


Hello Hobby Enthusiasts,
On behalf of the staff at PSA, thank you for your incredible support during 2019. The hobby continues to grow as more and more people either discover the joy of collecting for the first time or return to the hobby of their youth.
As you likely know, PSA has been busy. Thanks to your support, we eclipsed four milestones this calendar year. The first three were surpassing the 33 million, 34 million and 35 million collectibles certified thresholds. The fourth was authenticating and grading the 1,000,000th Pokémon card in our history.
All the while, we have been working diligently to expand our capacity to better service the demand for PSA services. As our milestone achievements indicate, we have had good success in this effort. That said, we are still building upon our foundation to expand even further.
Looking ahead to 2020, PSA has left its core service levels and pricing largely unchanged. We have added two new service levels and adjusted some declared value parameters. Visit this webpage to review the changes. These changes will go into effect on January 1.
We have come a long way in 2019, backed by an effort to listen to your feedback and improve your submission experience with PSA. Here is a quick overview of some these improvements:
• Turnaround Time Updates – updated each Monday using actual order processing data from the week prior, collectors can access current estimated lead times.
• New Order Tracking Bar – our new order tracker provides you with detailed, step-by-step updates for your submission as it moves through the PSA system.
• Online Label Correction Service – using our website, customers now can initiate a label correction before the collectible leaves our facility.
• Set Registry Achievement Program – earn virtual rewards and receive encouragement as you collect and compete on the PSA Set Registry.
PSA also expanded its Customer Service and Sales Account Management teams and added resources to service our East Coast and Japanese collecting bases. Looking ahead to 2020, expect more improvements to our customer service, turnaround times and holder security.
At PSA, our goal is to lead the hobby through accurate, impartial third-party grading and free, educational collecting content. I hope we have been able to deliver these benefits to your own personal collection this year.
Enjoy Collecting (in 2019, 2020 and beyond),

Steve Sloan
President, PSA

Teflon !!!

Maybe. But considering this just broke and June and typical turn times are 100 days, it shouldn’t be surprising that things are BAU. Why wouldn’t they be?

We tend to think of companies like PSA as being big, because they are big in our hobby. Which is actually small.

All that said, John Kapon / Acker Merril sold 100s of millions in fake wine and are still leaders in their space so who knows. Wine collectors are as dense and as immature as card collectors, so maybe nothing does come of this.

Deny, minimize, contain, reassure, deflect.

Absolutely +1
PSA All They Do is Win Win Win No Matter What !

Always kinda looked like Hal Chase to me...

We're just spit ballin here...
Let's Say Every PSA Cert Number was an actual person in this Class Action Law suit! And the List kept getting bigger and Bigger And BIGGER!

And then the PSA Bubble got Busted!
Well, it took like 7-10 years fir the GAI Slab to become obsolete, jus a quick thought!?

"How Long do ya think it'll take fir the PSA Slab to become extinct?"

My over/under is 8 years. But wish that number was lower.

I will take the over.:) This hobby is way too shady to let a few whiners on a couple forums bring down the cash cow. Anybody in for a group submission?

Over as well. I cannot see the hobby returning to a raw card model, not with the millions upon millions invested already in registry sets and other slabbed cards. And there is no meaningful competition now or on the horizon. I think PSA weathers the storm.

Over Agree with Peter for all the above reason I posted before.

And a nice sticker too.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=171

Lots of cardboard missing on that one. I guess it’s not the first time Little Joe was deemed short. :rolleyes:

What if we put a 1 in front of the 8? Would anyone here bet the under at 18?

Is there a full list sorted by cert #?

As long as the hobby exists as a place where large sums of money are spent on cards professional
Grading will remain a fixture. It may be a different company it may have different parameters than today but it will exist as long as big money is being spent in the hobby. If grading does it will be because a large part of the hobby dies with it.

People can talk down saying the fact no civil lawsuits have been filed mean nothing in terms of the problems of the hobby

however i am not sure how we can be discussing the closure of million dollar businesses when not even a single lawsuit has been filed. (please correct me if i am wrong as i have not checked court dockets across the country, i just assume someone would of mentioned one on this or the other forums i look at)\

Yes I know Mastro this and that so it could happen without much but this involves so many more layers and time and cards changing hands and issues for bigger disputes etc....my opinion..

Fully agree that card grading won’t go away in our lifetimes. But it could adapt, and have a vastly different look before we kick the bucket. Perhaps it’s the way cards are graded, perhaps it’s improved methods for detecting alteration, perhaps it’s a company that spends more time analyzing the cards, perhaps it’s a company that caters to collectors rather than shareholders, perhaps they ditch number grades in favor of descriptive ones, perhaps a company will enter the fray with a different take altogether.

I’d support a TPG that could simply deem a card as being unaltered, provided they could do it effectively. I know others would as well. Maybe there’s a niche for those who don’t give a hoot about the Registry, or paying 1000 times more for a card because it “appears” to be mint. I just have a hunch that something different will come along as the “mistakes” continue to be revealed. And if the FBI does intervene, it will only serve to accelerate the process.

I wish SABR would create a subsidiary that, like their current retrosheet.org website, would be basically non-profit. But the grading could ensure a stable operating stream for everything else they do, by charging nominal fees.

In terms of integrity, knowledge and respect for the history of the game and so on, they are top notch. And with their organization doing the grading without a profit motive, at minimum any mistakes made would be honest ones.

Is anyone here a member of SABR? It would be an ambitious effort, but is it something they might at least be willing to look at?

Nice short sale.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=182

PWWC can't absorb all of these possible returns, can they?

Maybe Johnny will pitch in to try to save himself with the government.

Who is gonna Gonna Roll First ?

I don't understand why you assume people would report their legal goings on to you or this board.

Just imagine if there was a way to notify all of these "winning" bidders that they paid an enormous premium for a fake PSA card?

What's been revealed to date likely represents under 2% of all the slabbed/numbered/altered cards in circulation. But what if that measly 2% were made aware of how badly they were duped? And what if that 2% all submitted for refunds? It would create enough liability to bankrupt the entire Mount Rushmore of "Bad Actors"... Johnny, Gary, Brent and Joe O.

If eBay never made their misguided decision to block identities, the sh*t would've already hit the fan.

The old squeeze play might occur on a few of these crum bums

outed
 

Been following this for a long time

very interesting...how many " duped" big time collectors ...who got ripped off to the tune of -?..$500-$2000 ....what have they done about it ?

Im guessing a lot of anger...maybe embarrassment ( imagine telling a loved one or friend what happened ? ) people you know who have often said to you over the years - " Dude, you crazy spending that kind of money on baseball cards ".... Do you tell them ?

Do you call PSA ( yea right ! ) and demand a full refund

Do you break the card out of the slab ( to prevent this from ever happening again ? ) ..and then stare at the $1500 mistake you made ?

Do you pretend the card is still legit....even though the proof is there ?

I believe that where cards are listed on the registry, the BODA guys make an effort to contact the owners.

There have also been instances where PWCC has notified winning bidders.

Ebay was certainly a better place where you could track what the known card doctors were buying, and you could see who was bidding stuff up.

… and you could effortlessly message both the Buyers and Sellers. I used to reach out to winning bidders to congratulate them, and sometimes offer them an instant profit if I fell asleep at the wheel. It was a very useful feature. Just imagine if eBay re-enabled that function. Thousands of fraud victims could easily be made right in no time.

Ebay is not interested in preventing fraud, we know that.

with 1000s of cards...i would expect there would be many easy ones 'i got back my $200 bucks' etc....not a big secret...

plus others have already talked about PWCC reaching out to them.

this is a web baseball card discussion forum.....it wouldnt be unheard of for some people to share some things..

Jake what are your thoughts on this, Do think PWCC will attempt to recover damages via a large monetary civil lawsuit against PSA for all the bad cards they're buying back?
I can't see them just eating the cost of all these buy backs. All hypothetical... Prove we knew these cards were altered, we just crack and resubmit cards we believe to be under graded, we have no ties to such and such submitter's......we all have ideas on whom from the blowout discoveries.

Just wondering your thoughts?

Do you seriously believe PWCC is in any position to sue PSA? Is this an early April Fools joke or do you really not understand what is going on here? PSA can break into the PWCC Vault and get caught on video and PWCC couldn’t/wouldn’t sue them.

does PWCC have insurance? Or am I mis-remembering?

Yeah i not touching his question. My viewpoints are just on these end buyers with the tainted cards and their recourse or whether they are all be taken care of or are they having problems

We thus far heard 'being addressed'

Now that would have to be the strangest insurance policy of all time.

Yes

Yeah, one that pays off on restitution for doing sketchy stuff...

Maybe if it's the dumbest insurance company ever.

out
 

Have any Net 54 members identified themselves on the site,as having been ripped off by all this trimming/cleaning underhanded stuff ?

I guess it could be awkward/embarrassing ...but curious - have they stopped collecting ?..stopped buying from PSA ? ...stopped buying slabbed cards ?

Fats gets a little thinner.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=189

Good ol' Fats Henry. One of my great uncles, William "Bill" Markel was a teammate of his at Washington and Jefferson College back in the day.