Gee Mark, thanks for reminding me...LOL. Yeah, I'll plead guilty to getting a little caught up in trying to fill a hole in my collection. I bought 3 magazines from that guy. The photos on the site were a bit small and I had to magnify them to get an idea if I should buy them or not. As Mark said, they were close enough that it was worth buying them and sending them off...but they were not good. Cost me the authentication cost and shipping, but I got my original money back from the seller...and received a refresher course in something I already knew, which is don't let your excitement for finding something cloud your judgement. Now, if the seller is from Lewiston, I don't even bother looking.

Sorry Mike for bringing up bad memories.

...but not sorry enough to sell me your Stengel or Alston Sport magazines, right? LOL

T206 scandal
 

Here is how you "stem the tide" DONT BUY FROM HIM, EDUCATE YOURSELF & AS MANY COLLECTORS YOU CAN, and especially at a show in person...report him to the organizers as long as you have exemplar proof, squeaky wheels get heard. DO RESEARCH, get educated!!!!!

In the past, when I was doing shows, he had been removed.

nope.

I ran into him at the Chicago show in May or June. Didn't know who he was until he introduced himself while I was standing at HIS table. I knew who he was from years back as I am from central Illinois. I pretty much ended the conversation at that point and didn't tell him who I was. He did say he sets up at the National and also gave me a flyer for a show he puts on at the Mall in Peoria, IL. Yes, he for sure is still in business. There were rumors floating around that Till had some type of machine that could forge signatures that were nearly impossible to detect. Again, those were only rumors and not sure if such a thing even exists.

Sounds like an autopen machine. They've been around for decades.


Steve

Yes, thank you. That is what it was called.

Autopen machines can be detected. There have been a couple of Panini scandals (Dak Prescott, Florida Georgia Line), plus Reese Witherspoon signed Barnes and Noble books this year.

https://img.comc.com/i/Football/2016...&size=original
2016 Panini Prizm - Rookie Autograph - Prizm #RA-DPS.2 - Dak Prescott (Autopen - No Sticker on Back) [Rerelease]
Courtesy of COMC.com

https://img.comc.com/i/Non-Sports/20...&size=original
2014 Panini Country Music - Authentic Signatures - Blue #S-TH - Tyler Hubbard (Autopenned Signature) /149
Courtesy of COMC.com

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1254399&page=2

forge
 

that's an incredibly good and true point regarding testing age of pen ink...can NOT be done by somebody sitting and looking at a card for 2 minutes

“If you give an opinion of a person or company, your FULL name needs to be in the post”

Why does this seem to be so hard for some to understand. Apparently for the moderators this only applies to some people and some threads.

Has also used ebay ID "Prettything18"

he has 2 '39 Play balls's as well, L Waner and Durocher neither of which sit right with me; but the Waner was just recently won in a Probstein auction - same cert #.

The winner of the Probstein auction was f***s(13,549) for $104.38 now for sale by Vitagecollections1(745) for $350

Wow, so since I last looked at this thread yesterday we've apparently added forged Goudey's to the list. I must admit as much as this sucks it does make for some incredibly interesting reading...

It applies to everyone. Just PM me if you have an issue with someone saying something (you will stay anonymous) that needs their name by it and it will be done. I don't see every one or remember to do it every time. I hoped that having it in bold letters at the top of every page would be enough to warrant compliance but obviously not.

Maybe 3 years ago I posted that I will never collect high end autographs because I believe they are way too easy to fake, and that some TPG waving a magic decoder ring over it for 2 minutes doesn't mean bupkiss to me. I have been involved in court proceedings where some of the nation's leading forensic experts have debated whether a signature on a legal document signed 20 years ago was genuine or a fraud. The idea that the market is not flooded with fake Ruth and Gehrigs and many others is impossible for me to imagine. We saw some of it recently with Mathewson signatures. It just isn't that hard folks.

F****F had more than 10k feedback and bought that original card from teri781. olebbstuff ( 13226) has several feedbacks from teri787.

Booth Photos
 

Not sure if this helps, but Carlton has several photos from his booth in 2013??

http://www.sportsantiques.com/2013natstory6.htm

More than likely a series of carpet bombs....:(

National
 

The people who run the national don't care. 3-4 years ago I had an issue with one of the sellers at the national. I contacted the people who run the national, by email, about the crooked seller, but I never received a response.

Of side note, there is an advanced scientific test they use on ancient ceramics to test age, but they don't do it on porcelain due to its finish that shouldn't be damaged. Usually the only time it is done on porcelain is in insurance cases where the item is broken and they're authenticating it for monetary valuation.

However, for most valuable ancient ceramics, collectors and dealers have the test done and get a card giving the age. The test probably costs a few hundred dollars, but when you're talking about a thousands dollar item...

I suspect in the future, with some very valuable baseball item-- perhaps a trophy or something--, someone will have it carbon or other radiometric dated. As I said, I already know of one item that was, but that was for a court case.

Also of note, some of these tests are done by hobbyists, but they're most often done for historical reasons (academia, museums) or for court cases.

Has anyone started examining signed 52T? It seems like these have begun flooding the market in recent years.

Thinking about this more and we don't know absolutely that olebbstuff is the Marquard scammer, but the fact that olebbstuff is already associated with a forger and he has been allowed to continue is very worrisome. Then to top it off that it there is a high likely hood that he is associated with the signed t206 that started all of this is just horrible.

I am in disbelief of our entire legal system when known scammers are allowed to continue to operate (including Coach's Corner). It isn't like there isn't enough proof to build a case.

Don't be surprised; the rule in law enforcement seems to mirror the rule in local news: if it bleeds it leads. Of all the times I've tried to get prosecutors interested in blatant fraud or other white collar thievery I've only gotten one case off the ground. They prioritize violent crimes. White collar stuff, which often requires larger resources and substantial expertise to prove and often involves defendants with the resources to fight, is not as attractive to lower level prosecutors looking to feather their beds with high conviction rates and move up to elective office or a judgeship.

Sorry if this pertained to me and it got some panties in a bunch. Sometimes you get so wrapped up in the reading you forget. I've updated my profile so my full name is in every post! Happy to be transparent to anyone.

I haven't been on the forums much lately, but Paul mentioned it to me. Haven't read this thread yet.

I've spent well over six figures on signed cards lately (T206's, Goudeys) and I'm just incredibly f'ing sad. I know I have fakes, I'm scared to find out which ones.

It comes with the territory.

I honestly feel bad for the forger(s). To have to do this is just...I can't think of the right words

After this episode of hobby fraud it seems like the only signatures safe to collect are ones that you have personally gotten from the signer. I would bet that these forged signatures are not confined to lesser players. When the prize is bigger the forgers will be better. My guess is that there are plenty of Ruth and Gehrig signed cards out there that are forgeries, but have gotten certs. Who makes more-the forger or the authenticator? That will tell you who will do a better job.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Joe, I believe I sold you the McBride about 4-5 years ago and I had owned it for around a year and purchased it from a fellow board member who had had it for years. I am highly confident the signature is good.

I brought this up several days ago on this thread. I have bought and sold thousands of vintage signed cards over the past decade and have never seen such a big quantity of signed 1952 Topps as is out there now.

Hey Howard,

I saw your post on transactions and I would like to transition my logs into what you are doing so I can help for situations like this.

How are you keeping track of your transactions?

Regards,

Brent

T206 Doyle
 

I recently won a T206 signed Larry Doyle batting, Lot 809 in Love of the Game Auctions. It was in a PSA/DNA Blue Label holder with an auto grade of Mint 9.
There was also an issue with another card, the Lake/Bender ghost image, authenticated by SGC, that a respected collector thought may be problematic
When the issue of fake T206 autographs started to blow up, Al Crisafulli of LOTG called me and said he was going to resubmit the card to PSA so they could look it over again in order to recertify it's authenticity, rather than just sending it out to me. He was also going to do the same thing with the SGC card.

Here is his email to me below about what transpired:

Hi Hank:

Hope all is well with you.

Just wanted to let you know the status of your items, as I heard back from PSA last night and SGC this morning.

1) PSA is not comfortable with the Doyle. The card was authenticated in 2013, as you know, and they had a different team of authenticators at that time. Their new team, Bill Corcoran and Kevin Keating, feel the signature is a forgery. As such, we are going to need to take that card out of the hobby. I will process a refund for your purchase price on that card right away.

2) On the other hand, SGC IS comfortable with the Lake/Bender. They reviewed it, they feel the same way about it that they did when they first assessed it, and so they’ve given it their blessing once again. They are returning it to me in a brand-new holder with their new flip, and I’ll send it your way ASAP with the rest of your order.

Thanks for being understanding about this. Obviously it’s very important to me that we do not contribute to fraud in this hobby in any way, and when something comes up like this, I think it’s critical to investigate it and get it right, every time.

Thanks, and Happy Holidays!

Regards,
-Al


Al Crisafulli
Love of the Game Auctions

Al is and always has been a stand up guy, IMO.

Hank-Do you think this means that one of the two autographs was good, or that, even with two chances, SGC can't tell a bad signature from a good one? Who authenticates autographs for SGC?

This is the proper handling of a bad situation. Also good to see PSA taking a new and obviously more critical look at these cards.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Greg agree on PSA, but what happens if they start decertifying a whole generation of autographed cards, it will cause utter chaos, no?

But isn’t that chaos what is needed? I mean, they need to get it right. Wouldn’t the hobby rather go through a time of chaos but at the end have it correct? To me, that seems like the right way to take it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Kudos to Al and PSA on that one 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Class act.

I suppose it's better than the alternative, but it will very ugly if it happens on a large scale.

it's good to read that lotg once again acted responsibly in response to selling a bad card. last week we read that rea was preemptively issuing refunds. has anyone had experience with hunt and clean sweep as far as being made whole?

Agree on that. To call into question every autograph authenticated over the last XX number of years could get very ugly and would be a detriment to the hobby. This is a situation I would enjoy sitting down and talking about for a few hours over drinks with a group of collectors. I would love to hear the various opinions of how to handle this and move forward. The past is the past, now how do we move beyond this and make the hobby better.


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Yeah, I really don't know. I only have a few autograph cards, the modern certified kind, so my opinion would mean much less than those of guys with big money invested in collections of these cards. I imagine that there's quite a lot of angst right now with collectors and TPG/TPA.

I have some autographs. I have some Mantles and Williams and others that I had reviewed and approved by the board. I don’t have the funds to chase the high dollar signed T206 cards and I feel for the folks that have those and are now suffering from this scandal. It hurts my heart when I think about these assholes making money selling forgeries to good people. Don’t think there is a clean way out of this, but it is nice see some auction houses and authenticators doing the right thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The Doyle was originally sold in the November 2013 Heritage Auction. Others were sold during that auction. Rucker, Wheat, etc.

https://sports.ha.com/c/search-resul...-Search-071515

refund
 

Clean Sweep has offered a full refund on the Marquard including my SGC grading/auth fees.

Thank You Steve!

Cliff
(the start of this whole mess)

that's great to hear cliff.

anyone on hunt?

Hunts wants me to return my forged T206 Flick to have as evidence with the FBI. They have said nothing about issuing a refund yet but I assume it will be forthcoming. Kevin and Bill at PSA have been incredibly helpful since I have had more signed prewar cards evaluated by them then possibly anyone except maybe Paul. Most of mine are 10+ years in my safe and gotten from long term collectors. I know that doesnt guarantee anything. Most are Marquards, Wheat, or Crawford. No super valuable ones They questioned one or two and offered to take the rest back for extensive re-evaluation if necessary. This is just me but I never felt very comfotable with SGC. When they were starting I submitted 3 Callahans which I know were fine to them and they said they couldn't tell one way or the other and just returned them. Later Rich, Bill and kevin approved them. They were purchased from Ron Gordon many years ago who worked for PSA in the beginning along with Stinson who is probably enjoying not being in this mess from his home in Cuba (he moved there due to his Cuban wife and cost of living, not to escape this mess :)

As others have mentioned, it remains to be seen what effect this will have on the hobby - and particularly the prices of pre-war signed cards.

Looking at things from an economics standpoint, we have a market with a small, fixed supply of signed cards. With some of those cards now turning out to be forged, there is a real and significant impact on the supply. As opposed to other players and mediums where the supply is almost limitless (think Bob Feller autographs). So one would think that with supply going down, that prices for authentic autographed cards would rise.

On the other hand, the demand will probably take a hit as some previous buyers will become disillusioned and exit the market. How much, we don't know, but I certainly wouldn't see the demand increasing due to this mess.

So with supply and demand both going down, where does that leave the market? I think it's really up in the air at this time and will depend mostly on what happens to the demand, which is up to us as collectors. And by that I mean a small number of folks - I'd put the over/under at 100 as to the number of folks collecting signed T206s, but I may be way off. Maybe 3 to 5 times that for pre-war cards in general (Goudeys, etc.)

Thoughts?