Could very well happen as well....there are gonna be some heated battles

This is way too much work to qualify as a hobby for me. Hats off to you Peter.

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

One thing always stays consistent Mark PSA is always an involved party/facilitator .....however they believe their business is Teflon.....so far nothing sticks. When it’s just an opinion and you’re supposed to submit in good faith they could argue in tort court all day and night.

Proving PWCC (or some other plaintiff, or in a class action) was not acting in good faith might be difficult. Intent is is tough to determine if there is no smoking gun.

Yes it is just an opinion but isn't there supposed to be a guarantee behind that opinion? And if alterations to a card can be proven (meaning, if it can be proven PSA gave cards high grades they did not merit) then would that teflon coating hold up?

Why is PWCC obligated to do more? it didn't guarantee its buyers a profit. It's making full restitution by refunding the purchase price. PSA is only obligated to pay market value because those are the terms of its guarantee.

Yeah, it's edging closer to just being ruined. The lack of any meaningful response from the TPG's is probably going to be the final straw at some point.

For us hard core collectors it is ruined. PSA doesn’t care one bit about it being destroyed for us. All they care about is free flow and easy money to be made by the trimming/altering organization many of which has been outed by blowout.

Unfortunately I see nothing changing people are addicted to the slab they either don’t know or don’t care....it’s all a crying shame. Grading was supposed to give a buyer Confidence and Peace of Mind when purchasing a expensive card....all it seems to do now is facilitate the bad actors.

What a disgrace

In hindsight, maybe the Harris Collection should have been more of a wakeup call than it was. That said, and maybe my perception is just skewed because it's easier for BODA to find more recent grades than older grades, but it seems the incompetence/corruption/whatever you want to call it has really accelerated in recent years.

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

and checking their Grading Standards, they still regard these modifications as ungradable:

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

https://www.psacard.com/resources/gr...andards/#cards

So legally, (although I'm not a lawyer) I can't see how they can weasel their way out of this and I'd recommend that all PSA collectors to print out the guarantee and Ungradable Card grading standards for their own protection for future disputes.

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

The reality IMO is that the number of altered slabbed cards, if exposed, would break PSA under their guaranty. Accordingly, to hear PSA allegedly take the position I highlighted in red does not surprise me in the least.

As yet this contingent liability has been kept under control because the market price of PSA slabbed cards has not been impacted to create the kind of financial loss that would induce card owners to spend the significant resources to sue under the guaranty. As the outing continues, presumably along with continued investigations by law enforcement, public knowledge of the fraud will increase. As has been noted, the question is whether it will increase to the point that the stock price of Collectors Universe will begin to fall, along with the market value of PSA slabbed cards.

Earlier I made a post expressing skepticism that absent a new TPG company that uses as part of its business model the outing of altered cards to gain market share, public knowledge may not increase to the level to threaten PSA. Now I simply don't know, and would not be surprised to see this all start to unravel sooner than might be expected.

This is a massive fraud folks, and based on Keith's video, raises the question if and to what extent PSA is in cahoots with the card doctors.

TPG was supposed to take us out of the wild west when deciding whether and how much to pay for a card. Peter's checklist of what a prudent person should do before deciding to buy a PSA slabbed card shatters any notion that TPG comes close to accomplishing this. It IS ridiculous that one would have to check off the items on Peter's list before going ahead with a purchase, and the fact it has IMO portends a not-so-rosy future for certain categories of PSA slabbed cards.

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Peter your impression which I believe to be 100% true is the reason nothing will change....the altering businesses will continue, PSA will will continue to thrive, the collectors are the last thing PSA Cares About.

My memory is shot so please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't SGCs guarantee on cards that they would regrade the card and give it the proper grade?

I don't remember them having a guarantee like PSA has.

I think "done much" is the key phrase here. I have bought graded cards (though not many), BUT I didn't buy the cards because they were graded. I will still buy cards that are graded but will scrutinize and make appropriate offers on them as if they weren't. I think quite a few people here are at least of the same mind set. That's not much, but I am looking at the cards more closely and not enamored by someone else's opinion.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170704...Guarantee.aspx

The SGC Guarantee


SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

Well, you all know what I'm doin....I'm Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" to all of it.

Why anyone would want to continue to add to what already is easily a Billion $$$$$ fraud is beyond me? It is mind boggling actually. If one has to work with Peter's checklist before buying a stupid card, I don't see the fun or funny in it, honestly.

Ponzi's customers didn't want to believe the sky was falling either and kept adding to it too, much like this PSA SCAM. It's just the sad state of the human condition which is actually most fascinating thing in all this that I enjoy following. Even when they know it's a fraudulent billion dollar scam they can't take the foot off the pedal.

A nice little 2007 recession would shake things up a little.

I’m not a big fish but haven’t submitted anything to PSA nor purchased anything from PWCC since I found out about this scandal. Decided to work on a midgrade, raw 1960s set just to keep my interest in the hobby alive.

Perfect example of my feelings is a 1969 Mays PSA 9 on EBay, all I can see is how short the card is in the holder (over 1/16 inch or 1cm) and thus wouldn’t buy it at any price.

If there was another recession I would buy even more. :D

Recessions are the best time to buy. I absolutely do not want a recession. To many people get hurt and the altered cards are still crap, just cheaper crap.

REA has taken down the cards at issue as well as a PSA 7 Leaf DiMaggio that was outed as recolored. Another day in the hobby. Good luck finding high grade unaltered Leafs.

Moral to this story PSA is worthless

A lot of industry players are worthless.

Agree......sad state of affairs. As each day passes it only gets worse :-(

I thought we were done with Gary for a while, guess not.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=6068

The card doctor seems almost inconsequential at this point. We're losing count of how many have gotten their "work" past the self-appointed experts.

Perhaps it's PSA we need to be "done with".

The card doctors are shameful however I 100 % Agree with your PSA Point. What the hell is their purpose???

Yeah, I should've said the specific card doctor is inconsequential. It doesn't really matter who is doing the cutting and coloring, when so many of them can get it past these clowns.

Or the clowns are choosing not to look very hard.

'heated battles' sending a letter back and forth...wow thats heated..

I am but a minnow in an extremely large pond when it comes to grading but I did have about ten raw cards I considered sending to PSA as I had hoped for decent grades and being able to sell them for a profit. When this scandal broke I decided the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to the lunacy and have not and will not send those cards in.

I have recently bought already graded cards only because I was buying the card and the graded price and raw price was almost identical. These were low to mid grade cards that obviously have not been doctored and will likely be taken out of their slabs soon.

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

Scruples.

And it's a lot more than just a few individuals. Moser is just one of very many that continue to get altered cards past PSA.

Money and personal gain seem to be the motivator and common denominator for the vast majority of those who continue to support this highly troubled Authenticator.

Their actions along with PSA's Failures have caused collateral damage to all of us. The collectors always get screwed.

It's a shame the industry and hobby will survive it always has and always will.

The same reason all our houses and portfolios took a hit in 2009....the greed of a few individuals. Like it or not, everything’s linked.

Right... Post #1073 illustrates exactly why it will take a significant market correction for people to change their collecting habits, and eventually stop supporting the corruption and deception.
But until that correction comes, very little is likely to change (unless by some miracle, the FBI can intervene).

I really don't need to state this to the educated collectors on Net54.
But I want to say the obvious in response to the comment below..You already know the driving factor in this entire hobby will always be about money. Everything is driven by TPG's, Auction Houses, VCP data and the consumers chasing profits.
Everything else is just noise.

It's not a casual sentimental hobby like it was in the 80's and earlier.
It's a foregone conclusion that the show must go on.

I do not disagree that the driving factor in this issue is indeed money. A wiser man than I once wrote that the LOVE is money is the root of all evil (Thank you Paul).

My opinion is that there are far more collectors who collect for the fun of it and perhaps even the memories the hobby incites for them and not for the money. I strongly believe there is a much higher percentage of collectors who fall into this category and could care less about getting the highest grade possible or being the top dog on the registry. What I feel this means is that eventually, mid or low grade cards will become the norm and raw will once again make a come back and collectors who purchased these high grade cards will eventually lose money because their high grade cards will be tainted even if they are NOT doctored. There will still be speculators but I hope that this scandal will help separate a few of them out and help to eliminate some of the card doctors profits.

Maybe I am being a bit Pollyanna about this but I am still a hopeless romantic when it comes to this hobby.

Although there could be a loss due to natural collectible market scenarios. I'd say your last statement about high grade card prices losing due to being tainted regardless of doctoring is a pipedream :D

Money does not lose money generally. There will be no need for a fire sale. These cards are secure by their financially stable owners until the next buyer lines up to win it at the next auction.

Low mid grade will always be for the collectors. I just don't see much changing from the current state.

For years that monetary value has had the benefit of that same greed of a few individuals.

all is well

https://seekingalpha.com/article/430...=seeking_alpha

From the Above Article....two main points to me.

Remember this is a very emotional marketplace. Collectors have an emotional attachment and they would pay any fee to have their collectibles graded if they think it is worth a lot of money.

Disgustingly gratuitous article. Does this guy have blinders on? Not a word about the scandal... completely irresponsible reporting.

Feels like there was some “greasing of palms” that preceded that article. :mad:

There is a place to comment. I will not sign up (because I don’t sign up for things generally), but people can and can comment. I would love to see some comments regarding the scandal with links to BODA threads.

Eh. This scandal you speak of is just a few malcontents spouting off on a message board. Just ask Joe and Steve.

Remember that Seeking Alpha is a blog type site, not really sourced. That was mentioned when one of the contributors actually "broke" the story to the mainstream investors who might read that site. I believe it preceded even the Washington Post and New York Times articles.

Bobby, no offense, but you submitted cards and asked/called others to see if there was any interest in doing so "after" this scandal broke when their was sufficient evidence at that time that PSA was culpable and possibly complicit in all this.

Each to their own but I will never understand how someone can continue to support a business or anyone like this then cry afoul when it all falls apart.

I quit supporting PWCC when I realized they were banking large on their shipping fees alone. Imo, if they were capable of breaking simple shipping rules and are that easily motivated by greed then they are capable of much more.
I was not surprised in the least when this scandal broke and PWCC were implicated.

+1

From the article-

As more people become aware of the PSA and PCGS brand name, trust becomes a key component in the marketplace. It is a guarantee that gives buyers and sellers stable ground around transactions.



.

Amen. Tell it, Joe.

Their company is based on pure opinion only based grading. They have a Teflon non stick business model with rockstar marking, pop report and registry.
They will never be taken down. It’s only their opinion.

You don't pull the mask of the old Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Joe

PSA Definitely has A Cult Like Base it’s Growing Everyday

When people believe a card in their holder will always be worth more money they will do anything they have to do to get said card in a Newport Beach Holder.

No one knows how all this will turn out of course, but it would not surprise me at all if Joe is able to stuff this the same way he was able to stuff WIWAG, Mexican holders, etc. He is not to be underestimated, and there are many factors on his side. Among those factors are allegiance, addiction, and indifference.

Agree they’re masters in marketing I think this will all blow over. Like you said we are just a few malcontents on a message board.

I could be wrong but I don't think Joe has much to do with it. For me it is the people with tons of cash wrapped up in those magic plastic holders, the card doctors(way more of those than you could ever imagine), and the dishonest dealers(also WAY more than you think) that rely on those magic plastic holders for their living.

So not to leave Beckett out just ask Joe Clemons how awesome they are.

SGC closed down is autograph department it was so bad.

Hit the major 3 to keep it somewhat fair.:D

Give credit where it's due, I say. Read the transcript of the July CU analyst call. It's brilliant.

I have always given credit to the marketing of PSA. They are second to none, hell they could sell poop sandwiches at Lobster Fest in Maine. Marketing will make you buy the sandwich but it takes all the others to get you to come back for another one.:)

The difference for me is that marketing can get you started or give you the occasional bump. To make it long term you need the others to keep it going.

If it comes in mid teens buy buy buy CLCT.....it’s been proven people always come back to them no matter what. Cult like following.

Stock is a trade no a investment in my mind.

Lots and lots of people don't care who or what they are dealing with as long as they stay on the long end of the trough.
Happy Thanksgiving.

Long term there needs to be some correlation between what you are saying and what you are selling. If there isn't, people eventually catch on. The current outings by the Blowout folks is a relatively new phenomenon. I get it that registry collectors have every incentive to continue to prop up the market value of PSA cards. But what about the person who is new to the hobby and is thinking of spending 5 or 6 figures on a slabbed card, and who is aware of what is taking place? Do you think that person will not be concerned about the soundness of his/her investment? How confident can he/she be that the next outed card will not be the one he/she just plucked $100k for?

I know I am sounding like a broken record, and I acknowledge not much has yet happened in regard to the market values of high grade slabbed vintage cards in PSA slabs. But with the outings continuing on a daily basis, continued FBI investigations, and the simple fact that IMO a very high percentage of high grade vintage slabbed cards ARE altered, I simply don't see how an informed prudent person can not begin to wonder if what he/she is buying will hold its value. And as time goes on and new collectors are needed to support the current market pricing, I am at a loss to understand how a person can be so confident in the long-term viability of high grade PSA vintage cards.

well said Corey...and you hit the nail on the head. It's one thing for current collectors to bury their heads in the sand to protect their "investments"...it's a whole different issue with newcomers looking to enter the hobby.

Corey Logically I’m 100% in agreement with you sir.

To me this is all being worked out and smoothed over. PSA is keeping quiet admitting to nothing, everything is fine, in fact it’s great check our numbers. They know to many people make money off their product, auction houses, major dealers in their smr, eBay sellers, and the major altering groups wether connected or not. It’s only an opinion nothing will ever stick to PSA in terms of liability or accountability. They know they have ironclad Marketing and a Teflon Non stick liability strategy.

Keep the submission up they’re higher then ever. Their industry will survive always has and always will. This will be forgotten in a few years. After all, this board and blowout, we are just a few malcontents on a message board.

The way they ignore, deny, deflect and place all blame on others has all the earmarks of a guilty company with something to hide.

Their corporate attorney's spin statement of "We are working with the FBI to get to the bottom of blah blah blah" really means "We are being investigated by the FBI, and are begrudgingly cooperating with their officials".

The disservice they are doing to collectors is immoral and shouldn't be legal.

In the unlikely event the spit hits the fan and the stock price takes a big hit, they could have some interesting non-disclosure issues.

I think more about likely events more then unlikely events when looking at investments and decisions in life and like to discuss likely events more than unlikely events...

If all they get are people giving strong verbal disagreements, its not going to change anything

Don't forget lack of awareness of the problem. If 90% of the PSA collectors knew how bad it is, it would impact the market and PSA would have to step up and at least make some gesture of mitigating the problem. Historically, their motto has been, "Silence is golden" with an aggressive deletion of message board posts that raise awareness of the scandal.

Also as said before..if no lawsuits...why should anything change...everyone seems fine enough or happy with the result....

people go on and on about nothing will change...yet if i say no lawsuits. people criticize this premise and say why do i bring it up over and over again..

yet people keep saying nothing will change over and over and over again....without any criticism..

we will say its early still but also i hearing, nothing will likely happen as well so its double talk..

You still long CLCT?

well they do more than just cards. and again, i worry about likely events, not unlikely events.......

i own Apple stock but i not happy with their protection of privacy but i buy stock based on what i think others will do in terms of the value of the stock...

My hope would be that the pending FBI investigations will bear fruit with regard to card doctors and eBay sellers conspiring with those individuals. If so, I should think that successful prosecutions would have a significant positive effect on the hobby, even if PSA is able to avoid liability.

As to PSA, I defer to Peter, Jeff and the other lawyers who have had more practical experience with these issues than I had during my career. Assuming PSA was/is in fact ignorant of individual alterations, I assume one issue would be whether its argument that it provides only "opinions" will carry the day.

Who is actually speaking to you about the criminal investigation or the lack of any civil litigation? Who has told you what will “likely happen”? Who are the source of what “i hearing”?

They may not actually "guarantee" a profit but all of their slick marketing can presumably make one believe that they do and some good lawyering could probably make that stick...

So if the card has gone down in value does PWCC only owe a partial refund?

Jake has connections, apparently.

If nothing else, a stunning statement of the power of the flip and the Registry, and the ability of PSA to print money for people.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=151

Peter these cards are my pride and Joy, the Look N See set. What these people did to these cards is disgusting and shameful. These are obvious Hack Trimmed Short Jobs!!
Worse off is Newport Beach doesn’t know their Ass from a Hole in the Ground when it comes to properly grading these cards !!
Never in 30 years of handling these cards have I ever seen borders this thin.
If PSA is this stupid which I think otherwise now then they have know business grading these.

Mamma Mia! That's a lot of cannolis!