Core problem starts with TPG's. The solution can be dealt with TPG's.
As long as we continue feeding the TPG gravy train all sorts of corruption will follow. It's human nature and there is no solution for that.

TPG's can start incorporating technology into grading and perhaps this leads to better results.

Chipping away at trimmers, retail outlets and AH's where these are sold is ass backwards if you want to change the landscape.

The bad guys were there long before TPG. But the money in general was less, so the more skilled applied their skills elsewhere, either faking stuff or doing legitimate work.

I think the ship sailed so long ago that getting the degree of money out of things that would run off the skilled fakers won't happen. (And for many reasons shouldn't happen anyway)

The core problem is human greed and lack of morals and ethics.

No solution to human nature. But the TPG product gives a platform for this to happen on something that is not an exact science. Some intermediate technology could likely go a long ways in improving upon the current grading process.

Take the slab away in each of these card examples on this thread.
Then collectors will realize the true monetary value. Take those rose colored glasses off that are current TPG standards.

I am not sure lack of technology is really the issue. I've seen too many cards that without any technology other than the human eye and a ruler should not have been slabbed.

Wouldn't something as basic as a ruler and a reference (size variances/information) to the card specifications be considered technology?
Imagine if you can incorporate something more advanced than a ruler. Like some modern day imaging scan that could immediately detect flaws.

You keep falling back on the human grading perspective as if Joe Schmo should be held accountable. Humans make mistakes. We all do it every single day. There really should not be an excuse to avoid using technology this day in age.

If you keep going back to complaining about "graders" and the human aspect we will never agree on this subject.

It may well turn out to be more than innocent mistakes, based on what I have seen.

I was thinking "We're Not Gonna Take It" by Twisted Sisters.

Oh, we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh, we're not gonna take it anymore

We've got the right to choose it
There ain't no way we'll lose it
This is our life, this is our song

We'll fight the powers that be, just
Don't pick our destiny 'cause
You don't know us, you don't belong

Oh, we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh, we're not gonna take it anymore

Agree Bigly

Uh Huh... really makes you think twice, when you see the amount of Gem Mint 10s that are given to "Card-Buyer" in particular.

A waaaaaaay higher percentage of 10s than any "normal" submitter would ever get in a lifetime of submissions.

We'll see...

That reference does not exist.

Currently grading is done by humans, and will be for a very long time.
Consider that Google - the product of millions of dollars if not billions, and the labor of thousands of very talented programmers - will return a large number of images that are not the card you're searching for. Even for a very common card.

And you think a machine could easily figure out what a card is, if it's fake, and what the grade is? When there are many things that don't scan well enough for someone who knows the material to be sure..

Some of that can be done, like centering and measurement. The rest will take a long time.

Ummm.....facial recognition is a current technology that can tell who you are from a picture. It is used on a daily basis by many organizations. Put on glasses, grow a mustache, get a suntan..doesn't matter, facial recognition will see through the distractions to identify a person. And that is not cutting edge technology, it is the technology of today, in use around the world. An artificial intelligence system based on machine learning could do this job much better and much more repeatably than a human ever could. Have you seen the recent commercial where computers pick out snow leopards from images taken by trail cameras? And the comparison of how long it would take a human to go through the same amount of photos? Current image processing technology is way beyond what a human can do with their eyes. Especially for things like noticing flaws in flat two-dimensional objects, detecting freshly trimmed edges or undersized cards and doctoring.

Gee...my facial recognition on my iphone doesn't recognize me if im not wearing my glasses???

It can only identify someone in its database. Currently, the only photo databases for cards are scattered among several different websites, and as far as I know, none are detailed enough to allow a determination between real and fake.

Identifying what the card supposedly is should be easy under some conditions. Card in a database, card in good enough condition. Card that doesn't have a lot of variance in its manufacture.

Here's an couple example of ones that would be a bit harder 48 Leaf (Yes Ted, I know they're really 49..:) ) Here's a screenshot of my spreadsheet I did showing most - or as many as I could find - of the different varieties.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=23527

Just the Jensen has four distinctly different ones, different hat shape, different background, probably some other difference I haven't spotted, or haven't got an image of yet (Many come with shaded hats, but I haven't seen a shaded hat Jensen.

That database will need all of those to even have a chance of being right about the real/fake question. And it would probably be wrong about a shaded hat version if it came across one, because none of the "real" ones has shading there.

Most of the junkwax era stuff especially Fleer have cropping varieties for nearly every card. Both front and back. They are almost entirely uncataloged, so while you may be able to tell that card is a particular card, if it's not cropped the same as the one in the database... your system should reject it as fake.

88 Score... Has three different die cuts. The first left small tufts of fibers on each corner. When they aren't severe, they can look like wear. The second moved the tufts out about a quarter inch from the corner. The third, they finally got the die cutting right. Oh, and they screened the different printings differently.... None of that is in any catalog.

The Magie T206 comes in at least 8 distinctly different varieties. (All T206s will, some are just much harder to tell.) Not cataloged, there's maybe a handful of people who have even cared to check.


And,

Cards are not 2 dimensional. One of the ways to tell if certain cards are trimmed is that the edge doesn't have a rounded side and a ridged side.
And slight paper loss can be very hard to pick up in a scan, and sometimes even when the card is in hand. (see the crackerjack variation thread, is it paperloss, or printed without a number, or some other sort of misprint? Turns out it's a bit of paperloss that over a long time has become smooth enough to pass. Or maybe a misprint... Once it's determined to not be a new variation, the exact reason really isn't looked at all that closely.

For most cards, we don't even have a good reference for how thick they should be. And thickness is difficult to measure from a scan.

In comparison, the "snow leopard or a rock" question is easy. Especially if you have a good set of photos of the rocks you're looking at.

The "is that a terrorist or a tourist" is a bit tougher, and as Pete pointed out, a non-government portable commercial product that only has to identify ONE face isn't entirely reliable.

nice synopsis Steve...and sadly many of the reasons you've highlighted will prove to be some of the reasons automated, computer grading will not likely ever occur.

I was thinking of something a bit different.

If a century old card is trimmed, wouldn't its trimmed border(s), newly exposed to the atmosphere, exhibit different chemical characteristics than the untrimmed borders, which difference could be detected and measured?

I do not have any expertise in chemistry, so the above is a question, not a statement. If trimmed borders do in fact exhibit chemical differences, I would think that would be a great way to detect alterations. And one would not even need a base mark. Assuming at least one of the borders is untrimmed, all one would need to look for is whether there are any different chemical characteristics between the borders of the same card.

I would think too one could use the same concept to detect cards that had been recolored.

I get it that do this one would need to take the card out of the slab. But so what, if that is the price it takes to know with a much greater degree of certainty if the card is altered?

i think for a machine to detect trim...as well as other alterations/enhancements... you'd need a 3d scan.

I think the best way to detect trimming is to check the name of the submitter.:eek:

Can we settle for less than full automated grading? How about automated size determination, edge evenness, black light alterations, et all (surface wrinkles?). These would be easy to implement with a simple high res scan and some programming. The intent of the analysis is to weed out obvious bad/altered cards, not to grade them. Cards would fall into 3 categories: Pass, Fail (altered), more review needed. Fails are rejected and the other 2 go through the same process as before for actual grading.

Heck, based on how many trimmed cards are getting through, if they were to implement this, it would easily cut PSA's return time in half. :D

I'm still not totally convinced trim can even be detected...machine or no machine??????? Especially if a card falls within acceptable tolerances.

And what about factory cut cards that are smaller?

Lots of banter about technology...

But a very low-tech ruler, magnifying glass, and blacklight would have been enough to detect the vast majority of altered cards that have gotten through (thousands). PSA either does not take the time to use these simple tools, or something else is going on.

Sure, some alterations are tougher to detect, but there are bigger issues at play. Perhaps they should be looking at who is submitting the cards, and the other cards within the submission. That would be a good low-tech starting point. Then down the line, perhaps improved technology can be looked at.

But will PSA really invest heavily in that? Doubtful... If that's the future, it's going to take a new player to step in.

That thousands of alterations have been identified, and are continuing to be identified, by collectors hundreds of miles away from the physical cards says a lot. They've identified ways to identify alterations that are not being used by grading companies. Their methods include looking at images, and provenance. These methods will continue to be used, whether or not grading cards use them and, no doubt, sometimes try to hide provenance.

Thus, grading is done not just by the grading companies but by the hobby. Hive mind, some might call it. If graders can't or won't identify alterations, others will be doing it for them publicly.

Of course, part of it is that buyers have to quit being dumbasses, and use some old fashioned common sense, which might be a far bridge to cross :)

To me we at this point I’m way beyond thinking PSA is this bad at determining wether a card is altered or not

All the technology in the world isn’t going to stop a insider from being influenced, bribed, and or paid off ect....

true this! add to this point the apathy of most collectors and this is a recipe for no change!

This is a incredible thread! Big Ups to those who put it together!

MJD

ps now what ?

Enough of the plea for technology, back to outed cards and the mind blowing PSA 10s.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1935

Stevie Wonder could see those hockey cards don’t deserve to be in 10 Holders. Disgusting

10 consecutive PSA 10s (all trimmed) according to BODA. Astonishing on multiple levels. Never ..... get....... wait for it .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...................cheated

That 1960 Richard is pretty much just an Exacto knife hack job, and it still got a 10?
I really doubt that's "just a mistake"

As a concept, that should actually be possible. The edge should pick up "stuff" from the atmosphere, and that "stuff" should turn up as different when looked at with something like a spectrograph.

I'm not sure it could be done affordably.

And a few things like one edge sitting against a box for decades while the opposite edge was exposed to the air could lead to a false indication of trimming. Outside of some specialized units, the results take a bit of interpreting.

Agreed, that a technology solution would only be as good as the database that was used for learning. But that is the same as a human - they are only as good as their knowledge extends. However a high-res scan (or other measurement method) can pick up things that the human eye cannot.

Personally, I think one of the biggest hurdles for technology would be that if it were more repeatable than human graders, and I don't think that is a stretch, that it would virtually eliminate re-subs. Not good for PSA's business model.

OK, carry on. Back to discussion of the cards.

The part highlighted in bold is just one of the reasons PSA will not adopt it. That and the extra cost + time of implementation. They are all about profits.

And if it is not just oversight, negligence, ineptitude or time constraints that have produced these thousands of misgraded cards (and is something more nefarious, along the lines of favoritism or complicity) then all the talk in the world about technology won't help us a bit.

The Henri Richard Card alone should tell us it is not a lack of technology that's the problem here...

IMO both left and right borders look trimmed

As for technology, the whole concept of AI is the system will “learn” as it goes. The more samples, the more reference points it will have. Eventually all the variants will be documented. The database will grow over time.

Will mistakes be made? Sure. But the program will be tweaked as it goes and will become better as it goes. “Outed” cards would be identified in the system and would then get better at identifying issues over time.

It’s an evolution and not a revolution.

Step up to the plate Will Jaimet, apparently you're next on BODA's broadcast of The Card is Trimmed.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5650

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...ghlight=jaimet
Oh, Jaimet's one of the original ones that kicked this whole thing off.

Ah yes, and the connection to PWCC's Jesse Craig, who Betsy called the "salt of the earth."

A pillar of salt.

This whole thread shows us this is not a lack of technology. Grading old cardboard should not be this difficult. Magnified loupe, ruler and common sense. This is strictly corruption, fraud and greed. There are obviously graders on the take either directly from the trimmers or directly from the corporate offices. Hopefully it’s exposed soon or instead of pop reports and past sales everyone will be checking the BODA trim report before making a purchase, if not already.

What's crazy, and incomprehensible to me, is that there is that much difference in price between a PSA 7 and a PSA 8. How is that sustainable in the long run, especially when that pricing model is based on fraud?

Thank you BODA for shining the light on this deceit and fraud.

I have added a cross check against serial number ranges containing cards they have identified as one of my protective measures. I already was avoiding certain sellers but have expanded that list as well. It's getting tough to buy lol.

yeah but he's a big shot trimmer, scammer, fraudster, fat loser dealer & big customer of PSA. Of course he'll have all the 10's:D:D:D:D:D

This is borderline HILARIOUS!

you know, I believe that would be a good start:D

Never going to happen because that would be way too easy. They want to silence the narrative and do nothing. That makes them complicit to the crime, IMHO.

Because people are inherently moronic?

When it comes down it's going to come down substantially ! A much better time to buy will be coming. Hope this will cause the fraud to dwindle.

LOL Gary back in the spotlight. The list of specifically outed cards gets longer and longer, and unfortunately we know what that means for the real list of altered cards.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=228

What's interesting is the time line of some of those cards. Some cards were purchased in 2007 and didn't reappear as altered until 2016 or 2017. I suppose it's an issue of too many cards to doctor with too little time.

Or they purposely waited that long, so people would forget the original sale. You have to be awfully discrete when you fraudulently sell an altered card for $84,000.00, under the premise of being NRMT.

I wonder if anyone has actually tallied up the "dollar profits" from these ill-gotten gains? And what would that total number be, derived from the thousands of number-graded cards that we've seen? (keeping in mind that only a small percentage can be accessed/researched using the internet)

Whatever that number is, it absolutely dwarfs the extent of crimes committed by Mastro & Co.

S_C's turn.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5684

WOW...that Gehrig provided some return!

At this point the history of the card over the last 18 years is unknown, so the return may not have accrued to one person.