Yeah I agree.....would be nice to get a straight answer someday though instead of hurling insults...guess he charges by the hour

Completely gratuitous post Jake, had nothing whatever to do with my post about the extent to which BODA is likely to be able to out altered cards which it turn was a response to a question. You took a shot at Jeff with the Peter C. reference so you clearly wanted to invite yet another round, why I don't know.

Eh, he as well as YOU have called me that and he was the original instigator on this and was first on this thread to invoke this name. If he didnt think he was Peter C, why would he care. If its such an insult not to be said, why did he call me that. (i dont view it as insult to me because i am not him but maybe he does which 'invited another round'

is that one of the 20 insults he was referring too?...how many insults from him do you think he made about me? Let me guess, he didnt insult me at all, however saying Peter C. thats fighting words...lol

As far as the $10,000 issue, i brought it up many times, its not like hes scared to post a defense, he never corrected me. He also disappeared when new cards with issues over $10,000 were outed.

However. I never corrected him about living on my mom's couch either though...so let me deny that one ..though i dont think its a bad thing, all depends.

So, ok he agrees there many cards with issues over $10,000.00. There was a mentioning of small claims and too much time and effort to sue so i thought the point was there was not enough value for whoever made those points.

Jake...I don't think you were even on this board back in the era of Peter C...but I can assure you Lichtman bears no resemblance to him in any way shape or form...so you calling him this just to provoke him is ridiculous.

And this back and forth is useless and a waste of everyone's time...take it off board if you want to continue this nonsense.

I had taken a break from collecting and was living in California in 1988. I walked into a card shop and bought an SCD. I had never seen one before and found weekly auctions run by Johnny Adams Jr. I was high bidder on a NM/MT+ 1962 Bob Gibson and A NM/MT 1963 Stargell Rookie. Never thought much about trimming since I collected in the mid- late 70's. In the early 1990's I sent both off to PSA and both were deemed trimmed. Lesson learned. Fast forward to 2015 or so and I actually get a call at my shop from Johnny Adams Jr. looking for collections. I told him what I thought of him and why. He replied that he never trimmed a card, only pushed down a corner or two and taken wax off. He said he would stop by and make it up to me. Of course he never did. 31 years ago he was pushing trimmed cards.

Some of these guys partner with guys who actually do the work and don't do it themselves, but of course are equally culpable.

I didnt call him that to provoke him. He invoked his name first, why dont you call him out for that. I called him that after he called me that.. Yet it invokes him? I have no resemblance to Peter C either i assume

Here is the first time Peter C is invoked by him. It made no sense then and makes no sense now. Thats why to show how absurd the comment was i started calling him Peter C to show how silly his comment was and still is. However, it was only in response to his original comment that you can see here.

I agree that BODA has done an outstanding job and that the problem is vast rather than isolated. Meanwhile PSA is still playing the fiddle while the hobby is burning up in smoke.

Why do you insist on making this thread which I started to identify outed cards all about yourself?

My comments are clearly not all about myself, however if someone tries to bully with insults, i am not sure why you would not let me respond. You dont have a problem with someone hurling insults on your thread?


I have a number of posts just about the outed cards, he is the only one that cares to make insults and you have no problems with his comments apparently. Others have commented that if the cards or hobby interests are questioned, all we hear about is being called an idiot.

Yes, takes two to tango..however whatever i am guilty of, he is more than equal. Lets this be the end of it.

Yeah, because you keep calling him out!

This whole thing between you and Jeff reminds me of elementary school back in the 1990s. There was this tough Polish immigrant by the name of Benek who I got along very well with. Now one Canadian-born dude (can't remember his name - let's call him Chris) had some beef with him. They fought in the soccer field and Benek beat the sh*t outta' him. Chris never forgot about it. A week later Chris called him out again. Benek tried to ignore him, but he wouldn't stop, so then Benek kicked his a** again during recess, but nope, it still wasn't over for Chris. I even remember one Saturday afternoon, Chris and a few buddies went to Benek's house (near the school) and he called him out. Benek was in the middle of his lunch, so he put down his sandwich and went outside, and yep, he kicked the sh*t outta' him again. This went on for the whole year! LOL!

Cool, poor Chris, sounds like he was a bully though. (he came with a bunch of supporters against one guy who was by himself)....you should of picked up a bunch of Brady RCs in 1990...

I had no money back then. My dad had a very good job, but he only gave me $10 a week. I hated it back then, but today I thank him for it. It's never good to spoil your kids. I have one daughter now and I don't spoil her.

And I always liked Peyton Manning more than Brady. His SP Authentic rookie is one of the best-looking cards I have ever seen. It reminds me of the 1952 Topps Mantle. You see the sky in the background and he is looking up at the heavens.

https://dyn1.heritagestatic.com/lf?s...oduct.chain%5D

Loving the ignore function on this site

I am a little older, I was thinking early 70's. Kinda like 2 fine young gentlemen wearing their protective headgear while riding on a small sunshine coloured bus while arguing about the sound the colour green makes when you lick it.:)

The "Battle of the Chaos" is pretty entertaining, and a few of Jeff's posts made me laugh out loud today. But it does distract and dilute the importance of this thread.

So perhaps a new thread could be devoted to the net54 version of the Hatfields and McCoys. :rolleyes:

That would have been tough given that they were issued in 2000.:eek:

Yeah I know, you had one for sale so thats why brought it up

anyway, they both still in the 20th century...so i count 1990-2000 as the same..all in the 20th century..

that's number 21

I think he's wondering why the top of his card has been shaved off by an 1/8 of an inch. that's what it looks like to me. Just sayin.

The Stooges get in the act.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1333693

Nuck! Nuck! Nuck!


https://i.imgur.com/ZdKgrwp.jpg

In addition to the Stooges, that thread reveals an active 1960 Spahn PSA 10 with a $37,500 BIN plus several final sales from PWCC (even after the 2019 National). It appears they're still a black hole for doctored cards.

Jerry, who are these Stooges you speak of?

Ah yes! I just discovered this myself. In case anyone wants to try it out here are the instructions:

If there are particular members that bother you and you do not want to see their posts or receive Private Messages and Emails from them, then you can add these members to your 'Ignore List'. There are several ways to do this:

Through your User Control Panel: User CP, Settings & Options, Edit Ignore List. Then, type their name into the empty text box and click 'Okay'.

Can put that Spahn on the Mt. Rushmore....

I am considering a new thread with this video as the first post. It is another eye opener. Kudos to the BODA team over there. (*again) . My guess is the FBI will get to the bottom of it and in the end some fraudulent people/companies will be held accountable. It won't be quick but it will be thorough.

How does the Hendrix song go? If 6 was 9 I don't mind I don't mind.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=6028

Leon, that would be a great thread. It would be even better if there was constructive discussion and the usual angry responders didn’t chime in with the same, obvious drivel that they post time and again (I imagine that for me, half the thread’s responses will be blanked out thanks to my ignore user list).

Anyway, I think it could make for a great thread.

Meanwhile, does anyone know how to get ahold of the guy who the made video? If so, can you pm me contact info - I would like to encourage that person to please continue and posting those videos.

He just posted on Blowout in the thread. So you can find him there.

So here's a question for discussion -- what, if anything, are people doing differently in light of the scandal? How are you attempting to protect yourself against altered cards?

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

Thank you Keith, for creating that great video. We have been saying for months now, that less than 2% of consumers are even aware of the scandal, fraud, deception and corruption. It's the biggest scandal ever to rock the hobby, and no one knows about it! Your video will provide much needed help to spread the word.

Please keep the videos coming if at all possible. There is so much more to expose. Just today, a large batch of new altered PSA high-numbered examples were outed on Blowout... and this isn't slowing down anytime soon. Still just the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks again for the great work being done by the people on Blowout, and by yourself!

I am passing on my favorite card in the hobby in a 7 holder because of f'd up looking top and bottom borders. As Scott B and I just spoke about at a local card show, KNOW the cards and their characteristics. If it looks short with pointy borders, even if in a TPG holder, pass. SO the lesson is KNOW your cards and its series characteristics. IF you see an E220 with almost no borders, it is trimmed...tpg or not. Same with others. If you see 2 (or more) short borders and especially if they are pointy cornered cards....run away and fast. :eek:

Thank you very much!!

LOL that's a big slice.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=86

Keep denying, Orlando and Sloan.

Hi Keith. Thanks for the reply and nice to meet you. I am out and about, but will PM you later. I really appreciate your videos and think they are a great service to our hobby - your videos and the work by BODA are/is important. I would like to help anyway I can.

Ryan

Nice link! Thanks my handsome friend

LOL, ya know I'll make an Angry comment...cause I'm actually angry about it..:D

Thanks Keith for the GREAT Videos (Trimming scandal for dummies).

Much appreciate the style and content of your videos. THANKS!

I love your videos, Keith. You get directly to the point and I find them very easy to follow.

I will send you a PM later today.

Keith thank you for the excellent work sir :-) as always keep up the good fight sir. Happy Thanksgiving I to your and your family.

Keith respectfully is there anyway and or interest in setting up at all the major card shows across this great country with these videos and the blowout discoveries threads posted on large computer screens above said table/booth ?

Thanks

Nice Keith, glad to see we both are looking out for the hobby..

maraca cards...

And a pretty big profit...

The uglier altered version sold for 42 X the price of the original. :eek:

Wow Agree Mark !! These guys, the cutters, look for oversized cards to Slice and Dice.

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Feel free to private message me anytime you would like.

Thank You

An absolutely incredible job! It is amazing the time and effort you put into this and I believe this will be very helpful to many people. Thank you very much!

Great job on the video!

That truly is an outstanding piece of investigative reporting, with staggering implications, both from a civil and criminal perspective. Presumably the FBI has been alerted to your video.

This Board has lamented on the apparent lack of knowledge of this scandal by the general collecting public, and has theorized what significantly increased public knowledge might have on the market value of high grade PSA-slabbed cards. Have you ever considered reaching out to 60 minutes or some similar journalistic outlet about this matter? If a national news company was to air your video, augmented by additional reporting, that could generate public exposure of sufficient magnitude to be a catalyst to significantly advance the weeding out this fraud and bringing to justice those involved.

so far no implications from the civil perspective considering how this has rocked the hobby as some have said. All we hear about is FBI this and that. Videos like yours should help the cause

We should have a Mt. Rushmore for Maraca cards..with a mexican theme....maybe use famous mexican moutain range..

Impressive video Keith! Keep up the great work!

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Huh

Then again, they may not.

Have you read the Eagle Eye Joe thread about BGS and Joe Clemons. I bet you'd have a better winnable case with that one.

right besides a few things..most things in life are always uncertain. Can only go by the cards (trimmed or not) that are dealt

That's a good question. One thing I am thinking on is provenance. Most of my slabs are self-submitted cards and I am preserving the records of those submissions for future resale. Art is often tracked through its owners, so why not top cards? We already have provenance of specific finds on flips (e.g., Black Swamp, Lionel Carter, etc.). That should be more common. If I know the submitter as trustworthy, that should provide a great deal of confidence.

My own system (for PSA cards anyhow) makes me wonder if it's even worth it, it's such a PITA.

1. If offered by certain sellers, stop right there.
2. If serial number on PSA website shows first sale by certain sellers, stop right there.
3. Review scan thoroughly and if any doubt, pass.
4. If significant card, ask a couple of people whose opinions I value.
5. If still in the game at that point, check my spreadsheet of outed cards to see if in range suggesting it's likely from the same sub. If yes, probably stop or at least look into surrounding certs for anything suspicious.
6. Even if not in range of any outed card, if significant card, check surrounding certs for anything suspicious.

Ridiculous it's come to this.

I’ve been saying this for over a year now.....It’s much better for me to be card/slabbed card less then cash less. I could care less if I missed any upside....My personal opinion is everything is priced in and topped out if I miss it so be it I do not like this market’s current state one bit.....it’s much better to have cash on the sidelines then any slabs.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=243

I find REA To have the most integrity of all major/large auction houses.

Everyone is criticizing them with having graded altered cards....why isn’t anyone placing blame/criticizing PSA.


PSA hasn’t had to answer for anything .....it’s a double standard and total BS

I think one or two people here have criticized PSA...... :cool:

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

REA is definitely one of the best out there...but it's at the point where there are so many altered cards in slabs that practically every big auction is apt to feature known altered cards in very auction from this point forward.

So aside from stating in the auction listing that card is suspected/shown to be altered so bid accordingly...I'm not sure what could be done.

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

I don't believe that REA is turning a blind eye to or knowingly selling altered cards. I thought the criticism on the thread was a bit harsh/premature as Brian hasn't had a chance to respond yet.

I have no doubt that PSA fights tooth and nail in individual cases to justify not paying people, but I have serious doubt that they have disclaimed the guarantee totally.

i certainly wasn't suggesting that they would turn a blind eye.

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

100% agree

I was talking about the Blowout thread, not you.

It would be the owner who would have the claim, not PWCC, if the market price is higher than the refunded purchase price. How is PWCC out anything? It chose to refund presumably because of its own role.

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

Buying raw, low grade. Doing my own research on provenance. Since May have stopped buying graded cards, except low grade and low value, unless there is collection provenance. Won’t collect based on TPG card grade again until someone builds a better mousetrap, including transparency and traceability.

To me the more likely scenario is PSA issuing a refund and then going after PWCC for violating the terms of service by submitting altered cards.