Don’t forget Lou Pinelli!

BTW - I would still want that thing if I was a Yankee collector. :p

Picked up this red/gold three-quarters 49ers miner pennant from Jason (thanks, Jason).

Also bought this blue full-size 49ers miner pennant missing the bottom tassels. This pennant is very rare in colors other than red, and this one is in really nice shape (no fading to the miner graphic paint etc) otherwise. I happen to have a bug damaged Trench Giants pennant with the same color spine and tassels and decided to pull a pair of tassels that I will get attached to this 49ers pennant. I know that people have different feelings about doing stuff like this, but I I like to display these pennants and think that it will look much better with two sets of tassels. And who knows when a complete blue one will show up? (probably tomorrow)

It's night and day with the second of set of tassels. Your eyes are immediately drawn to the missing tassels in the first pic which makes it seem the pennant is in worse shape than it really is. Any easy fix that makes a big difference.

They honored the manager with an extra "M" as well. These guys were on their game this day.

Unique Emblem?
 

Hey pennant guys - :) - has anyone seen this leather emblem on an early Chicago Penn Co pennant before? Although not related to Cornell or any sport, I found it to be quite unique and interesting, with the cigarette and dog.

Wondering if there are any other examples of it. It's on a large 34" pennant, c.1915. Could it have been a custom order for a fraternity or social society? I am wondering how this was ordered back then. Maybe the group sent the artwork and then the emblem was created? or Possibly they just asked for a design to be created for them? Curious on any theories.

Thanks!
Joe

Although I have no theories, that’s a cool pennant. What is the “CO” the beginning of?

BTW - that guy’s dog walks like mine (behind the back) :p

The most fantastic looking football pennant IMO. Especially ones like yours where the logo colors are still vibrant. I wrote about the plain Trench baseball series the other day, it seems they made their football pennants similarly. Same font used.

If it was a Cornell pennant, I’d guess that it was the then-University President or something.

Yes, it's a Cornell pennant. Thanks, that's an interesting theory about depicting the President, but it really bears no resemblance to then President J.G. Schurman who was slightly more distinguished looking :), and as far as I know was not known to walk with a cane or a dog :). But that's a good idea...possibly it resembles another known university 'character' or leader of the time - I'll research further.

Try contacting the University with this link

https://digital.library.cornell.edu/...rtifactsandart

… or try Alumni Relations. My guess is that they will be helpful and interested. Keep us posted!

Joe, I've never seen this artwork elsewhere on a pennant.

Around the turn of the century wholesale manufacturers would distribute a catalogue, and inside there'd be dozens of different pennant styles and corresponding style numbers. You just told them what school name you wanted the product to read; and, you picked from 3-4 fonts. By the mid-1910s, most makers had a library of sorts containing generic artwork the customer could select from, e.g., football running back, baseball pitcher, lacrosse player. In some cases, these catalogues even included felt color samples the customer could pick from.

By the 1950s, colleges adopted mascots, and pennant makers began offering their customers an even greater library of generic artwork featuring bears, tigers, you name it.

Many makers boasted about their "art departments," and even accepted crude schematics of what you wanted their artist to make. It's possible your artwork was the product of such a request. But, the bull dog kind of looks mascot-like, so I'm wondering if this wasn't just some off the shelf artwork from Chipenco's library someone at Cornell's bookstore thought looked cute?

Note that this artwork was not screen printed, like many of Chipenco's competitors of the day had begun doing. I suspect Chipenco had not yet developed a patent or license to use this new production method by the mid-1910s, when this was made. They weren't alone. To get around this problem, Chipenco had to use burnt leather appliques or else utilize the relief/letterpress method (rubber stamp on white felt) to make detailed university seals or illustrations.

By the way, Joe's website (www.iyellcornell.com) is worth visiting if you haven't yet done so. There's even a section dedicated to (Cornell) pennants!

The “burnt leather” logos are super cool, like this one (not mine) which I consider the “holy grail”.

Joe said his pennant is “not related to Cornell.”

I’m confused. :confused:

Sorry Rob, I meant the Emblem of an old man and a dog is not related to Cornell - that is the mystery. Typically I would see a football or baseball player, or other sport, or if after 1915, the Cornell bear mascot. This is so unique and unrelated, hence wondering where it came from.

Thanks Domer. Extremely helpful information and food for thought. Whether this was off the shelf artwork, or a custom art department creation, is the fun mystery. I have a lot of catalogues and store interior images and photographs of the various local bookstores and shops and retailers, showing what they offered at the time. I have also collected a lot of dorm room photos from the period. I haven't found any examples like this.

I see your point about the bull-dog kind of looking mascot like, and had a similar thought - however, what seems to stand out more is the old hipster looking dude with the blunt.:rolleyes: If it was off the shelf, it seems pretty obscure and seldom requested. Looking through many class books from the time, one can see that Clubs, Societies and various Smoker and social events were a prominent part of campus life. Lots of great student images of smoking and dogs, and various 'stunts'. I am also wondering if this was a one time order for a Society.

If I'm reading this correctly, everyone better get used to "loosely rolled" pennants.

April, 2022 will see a nonstandard fee attributed to parcels that must be sorted manually when packaging exceeds sorting requirements. Packages with a length exceeding 22″ will have a $4.00 surcharge, packages with length exceeding 30″ will have $15.00 surcharge, and packages over 2 cubic feet will have a $15.00 surcharge.

I'm beginning to hate the Post Office. I wasted an hour and a half of my life, last Friday, trying to submit an online claim. Every time I got to "submit" I got a message "Error 413 - Entity too large" I finally gave up and am waiting on a claim form through the mail.

The thread's been quiet for ages and boom in 24 hours it's busier than Time Square. :)

Love the 49ers pennant Marc. Personally, I think the tassels that you've added make a big difference.

I might be the only one, but I like getting "loosely rolled" pennants. Especially when they're done properly. One auction house that I've used a few times, uses a thick cardboard tube to roll the pennants around and then wraps the rolled pennant(s) in plastic film. It arrives safe and sound every time, is much easier to ship and doesn't get beaten to hell by USPS or Fedex.

The worst and most unprofessional customer service on the planet.

I've warmed up to the rolled pennant packages as well... except when it's rolled too tightly and the painted graphics crack.

There can be problems with flat boxed pennants, too. Most sellers fail to use a plastic sleeve, which presents potential problems...

1. I received one last week with a hole punched all the way through the flat box. Pennant was ruined.
2. Pennant can move inside the box, causing the last 3" of the tip to look like an accordion.
3. Sellers get lax, and let the tip or tassels get caught up in the tape on either end. I've experienced a few lost/destroyed tips and tassels as a result.

So "loosely rolled" is fine with me if they do it the right way.

Nope not the only one. I'm with you. Boxes are much more likely to sneak through without damage than long flat pieces of cardboard.

Joe, if you've got old B/W photos of pennants in action, I think you should post'em :)

Cornell had to have some of the best pennants ever made in the early 20th century. They were like the Detroit Tigers of the collegiate pennant market!

That is a nice looking pennant. What year was the pennant produced?

Thank you.

I just had to deal with this and figured we should brainstorm ideas. Unfortunately I think loosely rolling is the only solution. If anyone has any other suggestions I’m all ears. J

I received a pennant just today (from eBay). It was a 29" pennant in a 25" flat box. And yes.... 4" of the tip was sticking out of the box with no protection whatsoever.

Seems like eBay sellers are getting even more clueless (if that's even possible).

I got surprised by this on Monday at the post office and bit the bullet on a $39.90 shipping charge (included additional insurance). Yesterday, I was playing around on UPS.com and assuming I used their quote feature correctly, the same package with the same insurance would've been only $23.

Now there's an idea. It's only a matter of time before people start folding pennants...though that wasn't entirely uncommon before this surcharge started.

I imagine free shipping will become obsolete for most pennants...probably quite a few eBay sellers will learn the hard way before adjusting their listings.

Rob,
I don’t use it, but if you are buying the insurance I’ve heard you’re much better off getting an umbrella policy for sellers through one of the hobby specific insurance companies. USPS is pretty much worthless for insurance. Have you ever received money on a claim?

I received money on a USPS claim for a situation similar to what Mark described, of a flat-shipped pennant that had holes in the packaging and pennant. Clear damage on the pennant matching the holes in the packaging. Because I was the buyer, it was easy to show what I had paid on ebay.

I've heard that the process is much more difficult for the stuff that goes missing. They just keep saying that it is delayed.

Knock on wood...I'm almost afraid to say this because I heard that package I sent on Monday was delivered to the wrong address. Still waiting to hear all is good on it....but I have never had to file a claim with the USPS. Again...Knock on wood.

On March 29, I spent an hour and a half trying to file an online claim. After many error messages (even after talking to "technical support"), I gave up and talked to someone to get a paper claim form mailed to me. Having not received it for nine days, I called again yesterday. They had a record of my request but, lo and behold, they never sent the form. WTF? Are they trying to run out the clock on me? :mad:

You're going to have to foul them Rob. :)

Anyone seen he latest REA auction that just opened for bidding?

some AMAZING pennants in there. Well outside of my price range but...just...WOW

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...searchin=title


G@ry G01db3rg

As a general rule, the less we have to deal with the government, the better life is. Filing a USPS claim is certainly no exception.

With regard to REA, I would love to know what the full spine looks like on that oversized Red Sox pennant with the “Boston mini” attached. I know the bottom tassels are probably missing, but wonder if the spine is all there.

It would be quite an expensive proposition to win it, separate the two, and potentially be disappointed at what lies underneath. Sure wish REA could un-frame it and provide some more revealing photos!

Now here’s a pennant mystery for our pal Kyle.

You might have seen before the late 40s/early 50s Tigers “Johnny Groth” pennant. Why Johnny Groth? He seemed like an okay player - he played OF - but only 5.8 career WAR, just an ordinary regular. No such pennant for George Kell, Vic Wertz or another half dozen better players. Odd.

Well Marc tipped me off to this weird 1960 Pirates pennant on eBay. Not a full team scroll but just the lineup … who is playing shortstop? “Groth”.

Now wait a minute. The SS was Dick Groat, not Groth. Johnny had finished his career as a reserve earlier that year … for Detroit. Never played for Pittsburgh.

So what is it about Johnny Groth? Well one thing is very clear: these are both WGN pennants. Same style and the font used for player names is a giveaway.

Pulling up Johnny Groth’s SABR bio, you learn he was born and raised in Chicago, and his father was an electrotype salesman. So … looks like hometown boy got some extra love!

Johnny passed away last August at age 95 … had 28 grandchildren …

Also, who the heck is playing second? Two M’s in Mazeroski???

What a funky cool pennant. Never even noticed that it was Groth and not Groat.

What's the deal on that? Was it a thing to stitch pennants together at weird angles in the early 20th century? And then frame it like that?

Hmmm, never seen this Tigers pennant with the Groth variation. Really weird. I wonder if maybe they added his name, after-the-fact, as part of ... a promotion he may have appeared at?? I dunno. That's really weird.

Maybe he was a fan favorite, and the Tigers hosted a "Johnny Groth Day," and they made a limited run of these for the occasion?

As to the 1960 one, that's an even weirder pennant. Ugly, too. I'm not sure it's by WGN ... other than the name "GROTH" it looks unlike other known WGN baseball pennants post-1958, many of which (but not all) were polychromatic and featured their Day-Glo paint scheme.

What's the significance of, "Law Friend Face"??

Pitchers: Vern Law, Bob Friend, Roy Face

Possible source/day for the Detroit pennant:

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/apri...marching-home/

Oh I’m fairly certain it’s WGN. Or let’s say that I’m certain it was made by the same designers who made WGN pennants in the 40s and early 50s. Maybe another company signed them as free agents LOL. Spine/tassels/stitching all resemble the style of the Groth Tigers pennant and others. Thin tassels that are same color as the body, closer towards the center than corners, thick spine, white single stitch thread. Here’s a ‘44 Browns pennant with the exact same handwritten letter font. And then of course there’s the weird Groth connection.

They made a not too uncommon ‘59 Chisox scroll pennant in all-white print. I will say that even by the early 50s they stopped using tassels on most pennants and the spine was narrower. So it’s odd that this resembles their earlier ones. I still think that points to simply having multiple styles.

Another Groth related oddity is that I am almost certain that WGN made a 1946 dated pennant with roster, which was Groth’s rookie year. Had only 9 ABs.

That’s great info! Thanks Marc. Apparently he was very popular.

I'm guessing it was part of a patchwork quilt, and was removed in that way. As for the reason the Boston mini was never separated from the oversized pennant, one can only guess. Is it covering up a significant flaw or missing portion of the spine? That's the frustration.

And the crazy framing/matting job that accommodates the odd shape and bent tip of the Mini is simply bizarre. Makes me think there was a good reason for not separating the two.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=105013

Fatima College Pennants
 

Question for the group...were the College Pennants offered from the coupons and advertisements below, the same as the B54 large rectangular felts?
I ask because the B54s were closer to 13x28", and the pennants advertised by Fatima are listed as 12x32". Were there different Fatima College Pennants? If so, I am not sure I am aware of them.
Thanks
Joe

I came across this add from 1910 stating the the Fatima pennants were a "hand-sewn felt pennant", which which would seem to indicate they are not the B54 rugs, but rather your traditional college pennants with sewn on letters. If that's the case, I have never seen a tag or marking on a large pennant from Fatima or Liggett & Meyers. Have others?

I wonder where L&M sourced their pennants, and if they ever put their own tag or stamping on the reverse. Since they offered for over 100 colleges, etc., it would seem they sourced from a larger pennant manaufacturer.

Joe, I completely agree with you. Until your earlier post, I had always assumed that the promo items offered by Fatima Cigarettes ca. 1910 were limited to pennant-like items, e.g., leather squares embossed with an image of a school's pennant, or felt "rugs" with an illustration of same. I had no reason to think they offered full-size, sewed letter pennants. Apparently, they did, as per these advertisements you've unearthed. Nice work!

As to your latest post, I too am now wondering where they sourced their pennants from. My best guess is these promo pennants had no mark at all on them. If they had read "Smoke Fatima Cigarettes" on the reverse, we'd have surely come across such a distinctive mark.

It's an odd thing to have a promo pennant series with no branding whatsoever thereon. Isn't the whole point to promote sales of their products? The Ferguson Bakery (BF3) promo pennant series from ca. 1916 was mostly unbranded; however, their premiums had at least a maker's mark on the reverse (Bradford & Co.). On the other hand, The Detroit Free Press promo pennant series from ca. 1913 included a label on the reverse reading "Detroit Free Press." Adding a label or screening an extra mark would have added to the production costs, so maybe that's why Fatima didn't mark their pennants with their branding, as they did with their premium "rugs" (which could be easily stamped with their branding)?

If you're curious, here's the premium "rug" Fatima issued for Notre Dame....

WOW very nice looking "Rug" actually look good hanging on a wall

If you're into college pennants, I stumbled upon this place recently. Located in Branford, CT (with CT pricing to boot). Joe you may be particularly interested, if you aren't aware already. Didn't realize there were real live brick and mortar pennants stores out there.

PS...Sorry for the super size. Not enough coffee in me yet to mess with the photo sizes.

https://americanamemories.com

Thanks Rob. I am aware of Americana Memories, as they have a large on-line presence and on Etsy too. I didn't realize either they have an actual store. That would be cool to visit if I find myself in the area someday - like you said, they have some very healthy prices! :rolleyes:

BTW, looking at the picture you sent, I am not a fan of seeing pennants sitting out in the sun like that. I've seen how the older pennants can fade considerably over time, if exposed to sun.

Thanks Domer. Given the American Tobacco Company's (ATC) enormously broad and deep reach within all the colleges and universities, it would seem many would take advantage of the premium coupon offer. Seems to suggest that a very large proportion of the college sewn letter pennants that remain today, were actually distributed through the ATC.

Given the extensive amount of smoking that took place then, it would be very quick and easy for a student to amass 25 coupons.

Here's a piece on one of the typical smokers that happened at Cornell (there were many throughout the year), where 1,200 cans of tobacco and 30,000 Fatima cigarettes were donated by the American Tobacco Company - they had their hooks into all these students.