Adam,

Do you mean insurance companies would try to screw the beneficiary out of a "death" benefit? I suppose there could be a few reasons for the insurance company to try to fight it but in most cases, people just die and the policy was written and paid for to cover just that. :eek:

Uh, yes. I realize that this question was directed to Adam, but I have two of those cases right now. I'm going to trial in one of them in a couple of months. The one I'm going to trial on was an accidental death policy (never get one, they do their utmost to cover nothing) where an 83 year old woman choked on food at a nursing home, aspirated it, and died within a 12 hours of aspiration pneumonitis -- an acute lung infection you can get when you suck food into your lungs. According to them, it wasn't accidental although they really can't explain why that isn't an accident. I mean, she obviously didn't intend to suck food down the wrong pipe and kill herself.

In the second one, the carrier paid the wrong beneficiary after receiving notice that he was the wrong beneficiary. Best as I can tell, the defense is that since they paid the policy benefits, albeit to a person they know wasn't the person designated to get them, they're off the hook. So the answer is yes, they will sometimes do that.

I see this thread has morphed into "bad lawyers" and "bad insurance companies" complaints and I can say from my personal experience the two topics are inseparable. I talked to several attorneys about three years ago who said in confidence that in their opinion, "the insurance industry is now the new organized crime of the 21st century". The planned and calculated bad faith tactics of many of the major insurance carriers is well documented and a great deal of it has to do with lawyers being complicit participants in attempting or successfully fleecing policyholders out of money clearly owed to them.

This happened to my wife with her grandmother. She got hosed on the claim.
I'm sure this isn't uncommon, unfortunately.

Lists
 

We obviously need more lists in here... and Rudy Baylor and Deck Shefflet

These last two pages of posts are the surest way to kill interest in this thread on shill bidding.

Perhaps that's the tactic that CU could use to kill the post over there... :)

I apologize for commenting - normally my non-baseball posts get completely ignored. I only replied because the poster is a lawyer who doesn't seem to understand why people make lawyer jokes, etc. I thought he needed to be woken up. Basically, I was baffled to a point that I felt compelled to respond.

I know a lawyer for a law firm that works only in insurance disputes involving buildings in the Seattle area. I asked him what was his success rate suing insurance companies and he said he's never lost. He said insurance companies regularly break state statutes and their own contracts in the hope that the people won't do anything about it. He said their regular automatic reaction is to deny claims even when the contract says it should be covered.

He said insurance companies regularly want to settle before it goes to court, because their bad practice and rule breaking in the one particular case is often something they do in many to all their cases and they want to avoid a court decision that could be blanket applied to all their cases and contracts. He said he'll find something statute breaking in a particular contract he's working on and the problem for the insurance company is it's something standard they have in many to all their contracts.

A specific example he gave is, at least in Washington State, when an insurance company denies your claims, they are required by state statute to include in the denial letter that the insurance owner has the legal right to dispute the claim within a year. He got a settlement against an insurance company in part because they didn't include that text in the denial letter and the building owner didn't know he had a year to dispute the denial and waited longer. The insurance company wanted the claim dismissed because he waited too long. He said the big problem for the insurance company is he's pretty sure they hadn't been including that text in most of their denials letters.

Just as a follow-up to my prior post, notwithstanding a slew of bad lawyers I've come across in various capacities, I will say that I know several attorneys that are saints, including one who posts on this board. The key litmus test is when money and legal fees were clearly a non-issue and making certain that justice prevails is the bottom line. Yes, there are attorneys that are quite honorable.

Four years ago, my wife started going through chemo. For five months, and had 3-5 different insurance items per week, almost always the same, every week. I would estimate at least 80% of all her claims were initially denied. A ton of them were denied for her doctor being out of network (he wasn't) - over and over and over. I'd fight it on one claim and they'd use the same denial a week later. I eventually threatened a lawsuit and a complaint to the insurance commissioner and that got the issues stopped.

In another case, my insurance company lied to me about coverage for an MRI. It was the end of the year and they were giving me the runaround to push the test into the new year, reseting my deductible. It worked. I had proof they had lied and got my employer to fight on my behalf and get the MRI treated as if it had occurred before the new year.

I probably have another dozen stories.

Suffice to say, there is no doubt in my mind that insurance companies do false denials as a matter of course.

If insurance companies paid claims on time and fairly then lawyers would never be needed to sue them i would think....

If this thread stays off topic it is going to be closed eventually.

Thanks for that message Leon, Getting real tired of listening about insurance companys and lawyers. Wow did this post get way off tract from starting about shill bidding and auction houses

I am sure that tactic was deployed for that very reason. I believe that this is a very touchy subject and many people have they're reasons for wishing this would end and go away.

+1

Its insane and totally ignorant that anyone would think/hope that a matter of this gravity that's been spoken about in alarming detail in this thread would just go away.

Some common sense advise to the responsible parties:
1. Take responsibility for your actions!!!
2. STOP hiding cause we see U
3. Say your sorry and mean it!!!
4. Attempt to make amends to the community as a whole
5. STOP trying to ban the TRUTH

Seems to me that taking responsibility and making amends would be a lot easier than say for instance:
1. Searching the internet in paranoid damage control trying to suppress the truth.
2. Trying to pressure/threaten forums into being a part of the apparent ongoing cover up of bad behavior by discouraging forum management from allowing open discussion in regards to this subject matter which quite frankly has affected most if not all in the hobby on some level.
3. Using designated plants to deflect attention or derail ongoing forum discussions
4. Running internet IP addresses on posters
5. Reiterating the same bogus company line
6. Thinking of new lies to tell and subsequently having to remember said lies.

I can't say Thank You enough to Net54 & Leon again for having the courage to allow an open forum about this subject matter because as far as I can tell in my searches of other sites freedom of speech does not exist unless it sticks to the script.

Ron Kosiewicz

Ron, Thanks for the concise, to the point and accurate post. You nailed a substantial part of what is ignored on this topic. What is truly shaking my head is how this thread derailed and got on topic of insurance companies and mouth pieces talking about cases. If they are genuine posts but just got off topic then they should seek out an attorneys forum, which i'm sure they exist as they love to keep that soap box going(kidding). I was actually just in the audience and decided to joined this forum after the last 2 -3 pages of weird posts . And yes thanks to this forum.
clark J

just got a pastrami on rye at my neighborhood deli...it came with a SHILL pickle!

ROFLMFAO! Was just watching VH1 classic 80 videos. They just played one of my favorites from the Gloved One: Shiller

I got into a bad accident in which a teenage driver totaled my car. Fortunately the teenage driver was insured under parents insurance policy. I am thankful that only the car was totaled and I wasn't shilled.
clark J

David Carradine passed on in 2009 under unfortunate circumstances. Was Shill Bill his last movie?

Actually it was Shill Bill 2

Were you not one of the people less than an hour ago who was critical of this going OT and posted this?
Here is the thread to have fun with the word shill. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217493

Fact remains only 4 people whose names are on the list posted here with an explanation. There are many others on the list who are members here and or advertisers who have been silent and just hoping this goes away.

I'm amazed at how little attention on this thread has been directed at the list itself and its implications. I would think there would have been more discussion about:

1) Just how widespread shill bidding seems to have been by consignors. Name after name, many of them well-known, who appear to have had shill bidders driving up the prices of their items, resulting in substantial losses for the winning bidders, the list of whom reads like a who's who of the hobby. This raises several questions, including whether they were doing this in cahoots with Mastro to make sure they never had to actually buy back their own items or at least with a waiver of the buyer's premium if they did. Also, just how widespread was this strategy by major consignors in other auctions? If the practice was as routine as the Mastro list would suggest, losses to auction winners caused by shill bidding over the years undoubtedly totals many millions of dollars. And what are the legal and ethical implications for these consignors and their shills? Are there any, or will they continue to be able to pursue this strategy of inflating the proceeds from their items without any recourse or increased scrutiny?
2) The conspicuous silence, with the notable exception of Kevin Keating, from any of the many notable hobby figures who have been outed as either participating consignors or their shill bidders. Surely, word has gotten around by now of the publication on Net54 of the list. Where are the full-throated defenses, or even just attempts at explanation, from those whose reputations have been brought into question by their appearance on it? Instead, crickets.
3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

These are just a few of the questions the publication of this information brings to mind. Maybe it's just too much to absorb all at once, and I'm also not sure how much can be done to try to assure a more equitable playing field for us beleaguered collectors from here on, but at the least it should be worthy of continued discussion. We should be able to do better than just lumping the business and ethical side of the hobby in with the worst practices of lawyers and insurance companies and heaving a collective sigh of "what are you gonna do?"

In my opinion the ones on the list that haven't responded are just waiting for things to die down and then the posts run there coarse and then they won't have to talk about it. Think about it if the posts on here stop in the next few days or weeks do you think they are going to get on here and start one up talking about themselves and take a bunch of abuse. Not likley

Hank, I think part of the problem is that the shill may be a shill or a victim of phantom bidding or someone who is listed because of a Mastro rule violation that was not the fault of the bidder [as Kevin K. seems to be]. Unless/until the people involved step up and explain which it was, there is some speculation involved, which is where the creeps are happy to leave it. What's the Nixonism, plausible deniability? However, the longer previously active board members go without addressing the allegations against them, the stinkier the mess becomes IMO.

Kevin: I appreciate the clarity of your responses. If it was me, I would see if I could get something in writing from the FBI or prosecution, just to be clear forever. I hope others learn from your example and are straightforward and unequivocal when attempting to set the record straight.

Fred: I've had two of those cases: one the carrier paid the wrong person and one denied because the dead guy's name had been legally changed and not entirely updated in the insurer's records despite 20 years of premiums paid in the new name. Both ended up paying after a fight.

Amen! There are only a few AH's that I trust since all this *poop* hit the fan, but it sure would be nice if, as a consignor, my AH of choice came on here and said exactly that! I don't want potential bidders and hobbyists to be turned off by all the negativity and fearing that they will be shilled in a perfectly legitimate auction. Why the silence from all the big players? It's in your best interest to come on here and set things straight, whether you're on the list or not!

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

I suppose we won't hear from any/all because if there's a chance that someone is shilling their auctions that they don't know about, there could be hell to pay and possible lawsuits in their future. But it sure would be nice to know that someone out there cares and is willing to stick their neck out and say, "here I am...look what I'm doing to prevent shilling from happening in my auctions and no, I have never shilled or allowed shilling to take place in my auctions!" Simple.

Another plausible explanation why they haven't addressed could be that some of them don't care.

Or could be that shilling, as we define it here to include the house bidding against the public, is at least partially allowable in Texas, where Heritage HQ is located. Their rules say right up front that the house can bid on stuff, as Chris Ivy stated in a 2009 interview:

"Heritage, and its affiliates, in addition to being the largest collectibles auctioneer in the world, is also one of the largest collectibles dealers (i.e., buyers and sellers) in the world," Ivy explained. "Heritage Auction Galleries is almost unique in that regard within the fine art field, as most fine art auction houses aren’t dealers, don’t have dealer affiliates, and thus don’t bid in their own auctions. Most coin and many collectibles auction firms, however, do bid in their own auctions. The fact that we bid in our own sales is fully disclosed online and in our auction catalogs. We state: ‘The Auctioneer or its affiliates may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots.’ Even if we didn’t fully disclose it – which we do – it would be perfectly legal for an auction house or its affiliates to bid in their own auctions so long as the bid is made with the intention of buying the item.’

"Frankly, it wouldn’t be fair to our consignors for us not to bid in our own auction the same amount we would gladly pay for the same item in a competitor’s auction," Ivy observed.

- See more at: http://www.tuffstuff.com/news/herita....p7VVPAqw.dpuf

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

Shill bidding
TPG re-submits for bumps
WIWAG
re-coloring
Creased card "adjustments"
well trusted people in the hobby now going to jail
and on and on

I have been in this hobby for 40+ years as a collector, dealer, card shop owner and now back to a collector. It is at the point where one cannot go to any message boards to talk about the great things this hobby has to offer without seeing hobby dirty laundry being aired out and collectors who I hold in high esteem being reduced to finger pointers and naysayers.

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.

Shilling has been going on soooooo long that AH's don't even think that the practice is illegal its just common business practice.

I understand having an auction reserve price as a form of protection for the seller if thats the route you want to go especially on quality memorabilia the problem for me is that this runs much deeper than just having a reserve.

AH's want to get as many potential buyers bidding and mentally vested in the process with the hopes of overselling the item by setting the stage for a bidding war or an impulse decision to bid/buy.

If I had to guess I would guess that 40% of what you think you see selling at AH's are in fact items that had hidden reserves that weren't met especially in todays market place.

Bottom line shilling has been around 4ever, is alive and well, and without impartial 3rd party over-site not going anywhere anytime soon. Anyone who tells you anything different probably works for or owns an AH.

Ron Kosiewicz

MY advise is

Good strategy for you. But I have no problem doing both: participating in and enjoying the hobby to the fullest while at the same time discussing and trying to address the problems. Actually, I enjoy them both.

brilliant question.

That is a good question because it does give them a 20% price advantage over other bidders.

I have not seen but did Mastro or Allen rat out any of the card doctors they used. Actually is card doctoring even illegal? I would guess not because Dick Towele(SP?) and others openly advertise their business.

In my experience with Sterling, I'd say 50 percent of my winning bids went for less than my max. I'd definitely add him to this good guy list

Rich

Understand completely what you are saying and I’m working on heading down the same path. Over the past few months, I found myself spending a lot of my time getting caught up, focusing, and commenting on all the negatives going on in the hobby; which sometimes is warranted. But I do agree, it would be great to see an entire month go by where everyone is showing off their stuff and just talking about collecting.

Definitely add Sterling - and BST - Auctions
 

to the good-guy list above. Oh! And B&L Auctions as well (Hi Leon & Scott).

All those guys (like Ryan C. and Al C. and Rhys) are collectors who happen to have their own auction companies, rather than people just out for the money (Mastro was a collector once about a million years ago, I guess, but always a jerk).

No one has been bitching about them shilling their customers. For those of you sick of the negativity, these are your shining examples of all the things that are right about the hobby.

My hope is that Mastro/Legendary's downfall, and the ambiguities about Heritage's policy of bidding on its own items (though I don't doubt they are above-board), will benefit these smaller auction houses. REA notwithstanding (and with all respect to Brian Dwyer who is a standup guy for sure), the hobby would be better off without the big-money auction houses.

Tim

https://lotgauctions.wordpress.com/2...s-about-fraud/

Saw this today on LOTG's blog...well written, Al.

Nuff said!

"But one thing we can unequivocally promise our customers, our consignors, our families and our friends: you will never, ever see us deliberately engage in fraudulent behavior.

Period."

Exactly what I want and expect. Thank you Al!

+2

IP Address
 

I get 1,2,3,5,6 of 2nd list. BUT #4)Running internet IP addresses on posters.
WTF? what purpose do this serve?
Clark

so, requesting "#7 - conducting random anal swabs" might be overkill at this juncture?

lmfao!

Hahahahahahahahhahaa!!!!!!

That monkey pic though.....
 

That was some funny shit!!!!Great Pic!!!!LMFAO!!!!

It's my understanding from comments made over the years by mods & members of that Turdish Paradise/Propaganda Machine GUU that Pappa G front man Chris Cavalier is an IT guy who likes 2 run the IP address of posters deemed 2B negative of the state sponsored storyline.

This sycophant controlling behavior is done 2 provide the identities of GUU Clown College students.

What I can't figure out is why the creepy disfunction when the continual storyline is that of industry good guys who are beyond reproach with their means & methods of doing business?

The gameusedforum originated right here on Net54. The game used discussions took place here, then Eric took them and started the gameusedforum, which was eventually taken over by GUU.

GUU used to have its own auctions and members could (and would) discuss the auction lots right there on the auction site during the auction. In fact, if I recall correctly you could discuss a particular lot right under the lot offering. Unique and daring amongst auction sites and the discussions were often quite healthy and informative.

Has anyone else found an item on eBay with a "Buy it Now"...then see that exact item in an AH listing at the same time.The item "sold" in the AH listing (with no reserve) and the exact item on eBay never changes, never gets remove or any price change. How does that work?! :rolleyes:

Thank you to those who have voiced their support of BST Auctions. We do not take lightly the trust that has been placed in us. With our catalog now prepared to mail this Tuesday, we have a moment to breathe and to again address this critically important issue that affects the entire hobby.

Andy, John and I have been collectors for years, bidding in the same auctions as many of you here. We too are repulsed by the criminal activity that has been permitted to permeate this hobby for entirely too long. Any auction house owner can tell you that nothing shady is going on behind the scenes. I strongly suspect that those convicted of criminal activity would have said the exact same thing. To us, lip service wasn’t good enough.

So, we contracted with our service provider to have a way to communicate to our bidders that their max bids and passwords would be known to them alone. In short, we built the accountability into our software and are proud to display the True Bid™ seal that demonstrates to our bidders that we cannot see the amount of any max bids placed or any passwords.

Stated another way, we didn’t want our bidders to have to hope that we couldn’t see max bids and/or passwords or to hope that the conversation came up on a message forum so that we could answer the question. We took the step to answer the question before it was asked, contracted to have the True Bid™ system, and proudly display its logo.

Our preview will go live this Friday, February 20 and will open a week later. Keep your eyes open for catalogs for this March 19 auction to arrive in your mailbox! We have been told numerous times that we need to offer a second auction each year. BST Auctions is listening and we will have a Fall auction starting this year! Thank you again for all your support and trust.

Sincerely,
Brian Terjung
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...BST%20logo.JPG
www.BST-Auctions.com

:)

This thread is almost on page 2. That simply cannot happen. BUMP!

This needs to stay at the forefront of everyone's attention for at least a month! The original post was made in late January.

Or at least until people like Kenny Goldin, JC Clarke, Dave Forman, Pete Calderone and others who are members here or represent advertisers make a post explaining the inclusion of their names on the list.

Or everybody here just agrees not to do business with those who aren't willing to justify their actions ...

It doesn't seem like that is occurring in the case of Goldin Auctions.

'Stuff' trumps morals. :(

As I stated earlier in this thread (and other threads too), I refuse to buy from Probstein because he allows shilling in his auctions. If everybody took that stance, it would drive these people out of business. But I don't see that happening. Funny, but I bet some of those that complain about shilling the most will still continue to do business with these folks.

Sadly, I'm sure you're right David.

We should have a thread with a commitment not to do business with those whose names are associated with shill bidding, and by posting your name in the thread, you are agreeing to that. I wonder how many people would post their name (basically 'signing' the agreement) and commit to that?

Not many. Stuff trumps all has always been the mantra of this hobby. You might have a better shot at getting people to not to consign with those associated with the list. There are plenty of really good auction houses in the hobby to consign your stuff to.

I wonder if this thread will reach 1,000 posts. No shilling please.

Refusing to buy or to bid from these dudes, while it might seem morally sound, might have unintended consequences. If folks thought that other buyers are holding out, then the potential for lower prices might actually create more interest in these auctions. The real pain would be refusing to consign to these guys. I would sign up for that list.

Fwiw
 

I will not bid on any Goldin items - too many red flags in its history for me, and too many other places to spend my money.

Might be as short as the list of folks who came on to explain why their name was on the original list. It's been this way for years, people complain but at the end of the day the transgressions aren't enough for most to do without the cardboard crack. That's why not many feel compelled to explain themselves, why would they when at the end of the day to many it doesn't matter. You get what you are willing to put up with.

When even the loudest Mastro/Legendary detractor was still bidding in their auction all the way to the end you have to think that the only way to really hurt these guys is to stop consigning with them.

nothing will change...this whole thread a waste of time....

And we have a winner. If stuff trumps all then lack of stuff is the only thing that will kill the vermin.

I may be the only collector out on this limb, but I am inclined to think that the Mastro prosecutions will serve as a significant deterrent against systemic conspiracies between auction houses and consignors to shill bids. I think shill bidding by consignors and their confederates may be tougher to eradicate. Here I think auction houses would be wise to engage in some form of self-regulation that includes industry standards and efforts for identifying and ferreting out shill bidders.

IMO no public admittance of wrong doing/associated guilt will ever be forth coming from any individual named on the list who derives their living from what we call a hobby but is strictly business for them.

I can't imagine a scenario at this point where these individuals are going to volunteer of their own accord to go on record with past transgressions so their statements can be used against them in a court of law down the road when their time/day comes.

It's a sick & twisted business that we support that is 90% devoid of any morals, conscience and integrity.

the list (of criminals) is revealed
 

It is not 90%, not even close. I'm sickened by the shilling epidemic as much as every other collector and moral dealer out there, but to say that evil makes up 90% of the hobby is ridiculous. I believe there is a much higher percentage of good than evil.

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Personally I think you have that backwards.

Really??????:confused::confused:

People go to jail for insider trading too but doesnt stop anything.....as long as there is money to be made....the tv show american greed will always have new stories to tell

people do whatever people do Evil or Good. One can only account for oneself and family.

I wouldn't say 90% in Card collecting hobby but I would agree with Ron in the Game used Market for sure. Today's standard seem to be Not that if it is worn an authentic, rather the perception that it is worn. Cards are hardly faked, maybe altered but you know it is what it is. But nothing worse than spending thousands on a game used item with a question mark.

Hahaha. Spaceballs!

Wouldn't it be interesting to see this particular incident as an episode of American Greed.....

who made that man a gunner?