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-   Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions (http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=269400)

drcy 05-31-2019 10:43 AM
There are current tools, beyond just blacklight, that would identify all added material. They are currently used with art and artifacts.

vintagetoppsguy 05-31-2019 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drcy (Post 1883014)
There are current tools, beyond just blacklight, that would identify all added material. They are currently used with art and artifacts.
Thanks! You don't have to explain how the tools work (I probably wouldn't understand anyway :D), but how long would it take to use these tools to examine a card? Just wanting to know how much extra time would be involved in the grading process?

Thromdog 05-31-2019 11:01 AM
Here’s a Cy Young with some work done.....bought in fall 2017 at BST as a PSA 2 and then sold by PWCC as a PSA 3.

There’s at least one other from that auction that was altered and sold by PWCC also.

https://bst-auctions.com/1909_1911_T...A-LOT2936.aspx

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ac36119a_b.jpghttps://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...6f2146f4_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...d7b60b87_b.jpghttps://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b6ce4822_b.jpg

steve B 05-31-2019 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1882993)
That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?
If there's some glosscoat (Or matte clear ) It may block UV. Similarly, not every modern paint/ink will react to UV, so the blacklight won't help as much as it's believed to.

But that's also no reason to not use one. as they can expose a whole laundry list of sins.

perezfan 05-31-2019 11:18 AM
Well, instead of a blacklight, it appears PSA used a blindfold when examining that Cy Young card. :confused:

I wonder if even 1% of these bad cards in PSA Slabs have yet been exposed?

Scott L. 05-31-2019 11:18 AM
Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

perezfan 05-31-2019 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott L. (Post 1883028)
Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest
Well, by banning him, PWCC did him a gigantic favor. Gee, PSA overlooked an obvious wrinkle.... shocker!

Scott L. 05-31-2019 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1883029)
Well, by banning him, PWCC did him a gigantic favor. Gee, PSA overlooked an obvious wrinkle.... shocker!
Totally agree! Huge favor.

ullmandds 05-31-2019 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott L. (Post 1883028)
Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest
I-N-S-A-N-e!!

Like the child in the neighborhood if you don’t play by their rules they don’t play! Pathetic!

swarmee 05-31-2019 11:42 AM
To write a glowing textual review and not mention the quasi-refractor line going through the entire card is definitely cause for return.

Scott L. 05-31-2019 11:50 AM
That "line" is so noticeable once you see. I imagine there might be a line out the door of folks looking to return cards and Brent & Betsty are probably on tilt with no one to blame but themselves.

Republicaninmass 05-31-2019 12:09 PM
You can fool some of the people some of the time..

Fuddjcal 05-31-2019 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1882675)
Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis. :mad:
F PSA, F Brent Mastro and F Gary Hoser. They are all criminals, IMHO.

Fuddjcal 05-31-2019 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1882682)
Correct. There are more card doctors than you can count. Moser is one... many more have been exposed on BO.

The common denominator is PSA authorization.
AND BRENT MASTRO who has allowed it for 10 YEARS

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1883048)
AND BRENT MASTRO who has allowed it for 10 YEARS
Or longer.

perezfan 05-31-2019 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1883053)
Or longer.
True and true... both are despicable.

But look at the title of this thread... Many other trimmers and sellers have been exposed (beyond PWCC and Moser).

While PWCC/Moser are by far the most visible and rampant, the term "common denominator" applies to the fraud in total. And as it relates to the exposed altered vintage cards, it is PSA that is the common thread. And it is the PSA Slab that allows these cards to be legitimized and sold at ANY other venue in the future.

It's much like the virus in the movie, Outbreak. Until they found the infectious monkey, the virus continued to spread. For the virus to finally be contained, they had to contain and destroy the monkey. As these tainted vintage examples continue to be exposed in mass, PSA's "monkey business" is becoming more and more apparent.

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 01:55 PM
I'm pretty certain I discussed Gary with Brent no later than 2007 (before I moved to my current home in early 2008, because I know it was from my old home), and it could have been before that.

ullmandds 05-31-2019 02:00 PM
I love it! I wanta tshirt that says “the Monkey must be contained” with a picture of a monkey In a psa T-shirt!

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1883069)
I love it! I wanta tshirt that says “the Monkey must be contained” with a picture of a monkey In a psa T-shirt!
Not a PWCC t shirt?

ullmandds 05-31-2019 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1883071)
Not a PWCC t shirt?
Include all the monkeys!

bnorth 05-31-2019 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1883080)
Include all the monkeys!
Pete, they don't make shirts big enough, not even if you used fine print.:D

perezfan 05-31-2019 02:24 PM
Wow... great idea! That would be a cool shirt to wear at The National.

We previously did Net54 Pins... T-shirts would be even better. I'd buy one in a heartbeat!

bobbyw8469 05-31-2019 03:13 PM
The detective actually missed the bottom left corner that has been built up. I'm blown away that PSA misses all this restoration. This goes beyond just removing wax stains and crud. This is trimming, color restoration and corner buildup! I am totally dumbfounded. Is this Gary Moser guy a millionaire yet?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2383

joshuanip 05-31-2019 03:16 PM
Not relevant to post.

Arazi4442 05-31-2019 03:37 PM
Thoughts on this "asset"?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steph-Curry...IAAOSw91Jc8Kxi

Seems like a trim would be tough to detect!

:D

joshuanip 05-31-2019 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi4442 (Post 1883109)
Thoughts on this "asset"?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steph-Curry...IAAOSw91Jc8Kxi

Seems like a trim would be tough to detect!

:D
Its ok, he has a 30 day return policy. If you dont like it you can return it (but he may ban you).

CMIZ5290 05-31-2019 04:20 PM
The hits keep on coming with this guy, but unfortunately, he is going to win out and keep laughing all the way to the bank....

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1883118)
The hits keep on coming with this guy, but unfortunately, he is going to win out and keep laughing all the way to the bank....
Who, Brent? Gary?

ullmandds 05-31-2019 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuanip (Post 1883098)
Its only a 200M market cap, but explain why CLCT is near 52 week highs in this market dump..... Either the news hasn't disseminated or this will pass.
i think the stock is seen as a good stock when the markets bad...people may gravitate towards collectibles as investments...like whats happening right now...so the stock is high...because most stockpickers/investors don't know whats happening with psa right now...it hasn't made any major news outlets...might be a good one to short!!!

vintagetoppsguy 05-31-2019 04:24 PM
The guys at BO have done an amazing job in their detective work. The before and after pics are irrefutable evidence. Good thing previous auction sales and scans are recorded.

But I wonder how many doctored cards are out there residing in PSA slabs that will never be known? Cards where there are no before scans available? Cards that Moser purchased at a shop, show or other private sale for doctoring? I guess we'll truly never know.

joshuanip 05-31-2019 04:25 PM
Not relevant to post.

CMIZ5290 05-31-2019 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1883119)
Who, Brent? Gary?
Brent..

ullmandds 05-31-2019 04:47 PM
2 Attachment(s)
i'm no graphic designer...BUT!!!!!

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1883121)
The guys at BO have done an amazing job in their detective work. The before and after pics are irrefutable evidence. Good thing previous auction sales and scans are recorded.

But I wonder how many doctored cards are out there residing in PSA slabs that will never be known? Cards where there are no before scans available? Cards that Moser purchased at a shop, show or other private sale for doctoring? I guess we'll truly never know.
As I have posted this goes WELL beyond this single individual. There are many card doctors.

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1883127)
Brent..
I think you are wrong. He will not skate.

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1883120)
i think the stock is seen as a good stock when the markets bad...people may gravitate towards collectibles as investments...like whats happening right now...so the stock is high...because most stockpickers/investors don't know whats happening with psa right now...it hasn't made any major news outlets...might be a good one to short!!!
Dave Peck gave some very good insight into the perils of shorting a stock like this not long ago.

Tabe 05-31-2019 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman (Post 1882934)
THEN the greed took over?

Hahahahahahaha, I'm rolling on the floor laughing over here (and my hotel has hardwood floors, so it's a bit uncomfortable).

It was kind of early in the process when the greed took over...

Allow me to, once again, point out the very FIRST card that the biggest seller of opinions ever gave an opinion on (although it was pointed last time I mentioned it that they were probably giving that opinion for no charge)...

Ladies and gentleman, straight from being hand cut from a sheet, the first paid opinion that mattered, #00000001, I present to you the world's most valuable card, the authentic, oops, sorry, I mean 8 on a 10 scale, Gretzky Wagner...
And I would remind people that one of the most famous cards in our hobby - the 1933 Goudey Lajoie - was basically a scam pulled on collectors.

joshuanip 05-31-2019 05:26 PM
Not relevant to post.

bnorth 05-31-2019 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuanip (Post 1883142)
Not relevant to post.
That's OK I do it all the time. I figure nobody cares or I am on everyone's ignore list.:eek:

drcy 05-31-2019 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1883018)
Thanks! You don't have to explain how the tools work (I probably wouldn't understand anyway :D), but how long would it take to use these tools to examine a card? Just wanting to know how much extra time would be involved in the grading process?
There are handheld "point and shoot" spectrometers, including one pictured in the below article. Blacklights are a form of spectroscopy, but there are highly advanced versions (using ir, gamma rays and x-rays) that include handheld devices.


SPECTROSCOPY IN ART AND ARTIFACTS AUTHENTICATION

vintagetoppsguy 05-31-2019 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1883136)
As I have posted this goes WELL beyond this single individual. There are many card doctors.
Understood. My statement wasn't really about the doctors, but about the doctored cards. They're easy to verify because there are before and after photos. I was just pondering how many exist that we'll never know about because the cards were purchased at a shop or show or other private sale, were doctored, but we'll never know about because there were no before photos for comparison.

After PSA cleans house and gets rid of the employees that were involved, dont you think they should offer some kind of service to their customers like a FREE evaluation? For what it's worth I think Sloan is a piece of crap for not addressing this.

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1883152)
Understood. My statement wasn't really about the doctors, but about the doctored cards. They're easy to verify because there are before and after photos. I was just pondering how many exist that we'll never know about because the cards were purchased at a shop or show or other private sale, were doctored, but we'll never know about because there were no before photos for comparison.

After PSA cleans house and gets rid of the employees that were involved, dont you think they should offer some kind of service to their customers like a FREE evaluation? For what it's worth I think Sloan is a piece of crap for not addressing this.
We'll never know more than a fraction of it. The good news I guess is that SO many cards are out there it may still add up to a relatively low percentage, if that's any consolation.

We'll just have to wait and see if they say anything, or if they are forced to by the market.

perezfan 05-31-2019 06:08 PM
The bogus PSA-approved cards just keep coming on BO.... Cobb, Marquard and Mantle now... with no apparent end in sight.

If FBI or Law Enforcement doesn't have enough to intervene with this plethora of indisputable evidence, then there's a huge double-standard. This is feeling way beyond what Mastro, Allen and Rogers did.

PWCC/PSA are to cards as Coach's Corner/Christopher Morales are to autographs. Actually they are worse, as the corrupt money pouring in is far greater.

chalupacollects 05-31-2019 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1882890)
I feel a bit vindicated in my opposition from day one to these stupid stickers.


The stickers carry no credibility at all at this point...

swarmee 05-31-2019 06:41 PM
And because he gave so many to Moser, they've actually become a signpost to find more trimmed and altered cards...

chalupacollects 05-31-2019 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy (Post 1882997)
For a computer based vision system with machine learning capability, the detection of alterations to cards, whether trimmed edges, recoloring or other alterations, should be easy to detect.

This is a grad student project to put together the system and to 'teach' it with known examples of altered and unaltered cards. You could also give the system rules for grading the cards. No human operator needed (or desired).


No not a grad school project. Several ex Microsoft engineers have buddied up with some patent lawyers out of California and already have a pattern on the technology... There are several threads here (more comprehensive - has links to the patent) and also on Blowout... not sure how to search them out but someone will see this and oblige...

Just not sure what they are waiting for to launch??? Maybe an angel investor or VC firm??? I'm sure they can get some seed money off this board alone!

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 08:02 PM
Gee whiz.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2402

Peter_Spaeth 05-31-2019 08:03 PM
Yowza.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2401

T206Collector 05-31-2019 08:28 PM
E96 Marquard PSA 4 = PSA 7
 
1 Attachment(s)
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2388

MULLINS5 06-01-2019 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott L. (Post 1883028)
Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest
It is not in PWCC's best interest to deal with people who inspect their purchases.


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