It's just so hard to say. I know that when I file sentencing memoranda or similar documents (yes, I'm a defense attorney, everyone fire away!) I wouldn't necessarily share the specific documents with my client ahead of time for him/her to review, although they would of course know the substance of what I was doing. And I'm sure that not many of my clients, even the more sophisticated ones, would understand how the federal filing system works or realize that something like that could be downloaded online and disseminated immediately. So perhaps it's just a case of attorney inadvertence in filing something publicly that he probably shouldn't have, and that Doug didn't specifically know about ahead of time. But there are many possibilities.

Dan yeah anything is possible but that's a pretty big thing to have done inadvertently for an experienced attorney in a case where many filings are under seal. If I had to bet I would bet that Doug wanted it this way.

Well my point wasn't whether people are glad it's there (which I am). My point was just that it was very curious that this document just now gets released publicly many years into the case, and that it was released by Doug's own attorney. The timing is just interesting, and I was wondering out loud what the strategic advantage might be of that particular course of action.

I have for quite some time. I find it far more enjoyable to own a run of lower grade cards than a single high grade one. Actually, if you like cards of the 1970s, there hasn't been a better time to collect them Even really nice 6-7-8 cards are going for less than the cost to slab them.

+1. A joint effort is the only way I can get in on one of those ridiculous AH mega lots. If cheap enough I will buy a hundred cards to get five, but if not, I have to pass entirely. I know for a fact that these sort of joint bid efforts raise the hammer prices on lots because I've lost out on certain items that were underbid by the group that would not have been bid at all by the individuals involved.

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

what is 'cheap' sometimes becomes more expensive....1952 Mantle PSA 1s 3 years ago were a loot cheaper then they are now..

I do enjoy though in the past buying cards graded where the grading costs had to be more than the card...

Andrew -

One quick look at the list of shill bidding will make it apparent that your statement isn't correct. For example, look at all of the pricing of the items from the Feb-09 auction.

And this shill bidding affected pricing across the entire hobby. It doesn't matter if you were a Mastro bidder or not.

Bill

Would it matter if low grade collector got shilled $50 and Mr money bags got shilled $500?

I can't believe some of the posts here that because it affects 'big money players', its fine, they deserve it, and all the better for the Lower grade collector.

In my opinion, I don't care of it was $1, ONE time. It isn't right, and people should be held accountable.

It has been brought up a few times that this ** pathetic crap ** only effects high end collectors. I do agree that is the case in most situations. HOWEVER, I do also believe :rolleyes: it does effect “us” lower/middle end collectors in many situations:

Say someone was to bid on a lot of 500 middle grade, raw T206s. He wins the lot at $10,000 (which is in the “big boy” range). That's $20/card. If he's a dealer / flipper (which is fine), he could sell them at $25 a card and make a decent profit. And a buyer would be happy at that price.

NOW, say he was shilled up to $12,000. Then the cards are $24 each. He would then have to pass that “bump” onto his buyers. So, now, he's selling these “shilled” cards at $30 each.

You can say “only $5” difference. BUT it adds up over the long run of anyone's “low to mid grade” set. As well as, if not worse, giving a false, inflated worth of the cards (just like the “big” cards).

IMO, everyone's screwed. Very sad, indeed.

++++ Basically what I was trying :rolleyes: to say.

I can certainly see everyone's point in that shilling affects everyone in some way. I guess seeing some of these same names over and over again bidding mainly on high end items allowed me to come to the conclusion that this is a "rich person" problem because of the dollars that were being tossed around. After all, paying the 20% buyers premium on an item that was not sold was more than I am sure I spent in the last two years on my collection and not something I could afford to do.

I just am still not convinced that a low level collector like me has even been touched by this issue and that is probably because what I collect is not something that is in high demand and therefore, probably not as likely to be shilled.

But please know, I do understand your point and it remains to be seen how this will effect collectors like me.

SGC's Forman in 2010 accused Mastro of misusing his account for shill bidding
 

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

As I once said before , he is like the Jose Canseco of memorabilia, one of the worst offenders, people do not want to believe him, but in the end.....

We are just going to need to keep moving forward and enjoy ourselves in the hobby, sure a mark has been left - and people made bad choices that may have changed people. I know one thing - cards, photos and other items are always going to be there for us to treasure. My direction changed a few years back and noticed we had enough auction houses in the hobby and felt that it would be a difficult challenge to manage and run a business platform that could potentially have issues. I really try and keep it simple now, for me and the collectors/dealers that I work with.

Jimmy

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

Uh...his brother was his shill bidder on nearly every item. What did Mastro say to him when his item didn't sell? Obviously if he wasn't doing the shilling he knew it was going on for a long time before any suit was brought forth.

You're jumping to conclusions, as far as Forman's involvement in shill bidding, or lack thereof. We don't have enough facts to know what happened -- except we do know what he alleged six years ago. The best thing Forman could do now is tell his side of the story publicly. That's crisis management 101. That said, as I said before, he shouldn't have been trafficking in collectibles that SGC grades in the first place. If he'd stuck with that policy, he wouldn't be in this position -- nor would collectors who own SGC-graded cards. From a reputational standpoint, it also doesn't help that he's moving the company to Boca Raton, which is the world's largest unfenced penitentiary and the country's most notorious haven for penny-stock frauds, boiler rooms and other investment scams.

Well, if the white collar fits...

So, how's BVG looking as a grading option?

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread may be ending soon.

Yup.

The other way it can affect collectors like you (And me too!) is in how the prices of the expensive stuff set the prices for the less expensive stuff.

The pricing for cards is primarily controlled by demand. Rarity can create demand, but within some limits. If it was otherwise, I'd be a lot closer to wealthy than I am.

So lets say a card is a certain price - like maybe a 52 Mantle. The first one I saw in person cost the dealer who had it around 900, either a record, or close to it at the time. And it was pretty nice. Since I had little money I hoped to someday "settle" for a beat one for maybe 100. Or, roughly 10% of a really nice one. And that ratio seems to hold since 1980, a fairly nice one a 6 or so is 30,000+ and a beater around 3-4000.

Now lets assume there's been rampant shilling at one major auction(Pretty easy assumption) - and that the prices they supposedly got are part of what drives the other auctions results. How much of the higher prices since 1980 are real? certainly not ALL of it, and certainly not none of it. Since the shilled results would add to each other over several years, lets say 25% of the current price level is from the shilling. By extension, the price of the "A" card is also inflated by 25%. So it should really be maybe 2500-3000.
AHA! you say. "But I still can't afford one so it doesn't affect me"

Well, the price of the Mantle helps drive the prices of the other high numbers by increasing the popularity of the set. And those prices in turn help drive the prices of the rest of the set. (And the rest of the 50's sets too. )So if we look at maybe half of that effect being seen in the lower numbered cards then the average commons that sell for $10 should really sell for 8-9. And that is at a level that affects pretty much everyone.

If you don't mind paying 12-25% more for cards, I've a whole bunch I'd happily sell at 25% over the current prices. :D

Steve Birmingham

+1000000 on TOO many AHs!

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

+1

Duluth speaks da truth. Spelled out like a hammer slamming down on a nail.

Am a low-grade collector (compared to typical N54 guys) who has 6 cards I've paid more than $100 for, with only my $450 DiMaggio above $150.

Here is where I do feel impacted...just not in the tens of thousands like others of you.

1. Had once imagined owning certain White Whale cards like a 52T Mantle. While the AHs dealt with the high grade ones, the prices of those definitely dragged the low end ones up with them.

2. Still hoping to own a 33G Ruth and 34G Gehrig. Reliant on TPGs to assure authenticity. But if ethics are that low, who knows...

3. Ditto for card doctoring.

4. While not necessarily the cause, the same bidding practices seen with Mastro are probably taking place with even the $25-$50 items I've won thru high volume eBay auctioneers. Greed is greed.

5. Though I don't buy as an investment or with any intent to sell, if scandals like this pop the card bubble, my own modest collection gets dragged down with it.

At the same time, show me anything that involves millions of dollars that hasn't already been completely corrupted. Doesn't make it right...just means it's no shock.

Any comment from anyone else on the list yet?

Hauls of Shame site now reporting

At least the NY DAILY News article was correct from what I saw.
Nash reports a lot of completely made up lies. Absolute fairy tales. Just like when he took the 5th amendment over 20 times in in a court deposition, as to where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Why would anyone take the 5th amendment when asked WHERE THEY GOT FAKE ITEMS? He made all of it himself is my understanding. And his association with John Rogers should land him in jail for a long time. I wonder if his outstanding lawsuits and recent personal bankruptcy will follow him to jail. Hopefully they will. He is a loser. As I just told someone, I actually stick up for losers a little bit. Without them it would be much more difficult to succeed. I predict bad things will happen to Nash because he does bad things and deserves everything he gets (as we all do, for that matter).

Well, I just completed my reading of the New York Daily News article and the report on Hauls of Shame. I don't know if there is a chemical strong enough to remove the ooze and scum of the behavior that has transpired.

One note, however, is the quote in the Hauls of Shame article:

"The shill-bidding list was a hot topic in hobby circles over the weekend and one of the best observations we heard on the situation came from author and prominent Michigan attorney Ron Keurajian who told us, “There appears to be a continuing pattern of shill bidding, fraud, racketeering, and strong-arm tactics by the same core group of auctioneers, dealers, and authenticators all in an attempt to monopolize the sports memorabilia trade. Criminal prosecution under the RICO Act should be pursued by government and those who have been victimized should consider civil actions also allowed by the act.”

Pretty clear that although the messenger isn't well thought of on this board, the gentleman he interviewed, Ron Keurajian, paints an accurate picture of things to come.

This is going to be one ongoing and seemingly endless demolition derby.

I appreciate members sharing the lists and articles; I have been able to view some of the material. I would rather not read too much, so I think I have read enough and will move on with more positive things to talk about. I sure am glad we stuck to the shows and a bit of eBay over the years instead of giving all of our quality items to auctions.

Jimmy

edited per name rules....no anonymous bashing

With apologies to Mad Magazine and Wacky Packages:

New Halls of Blame article

Baseball forum website owner, Leon Luckey, who reportedly was in line for a Presidential Cabinet position until this website exposed the news that he once inhaled some helium out of a balloon, is now stuck running his site full of cronies and sycophants, and deleting this author's fake accounts.

In other news, Boston bar owner Rob Lifson, is reportedly retiring to the Cayman Islands, where he can freely access the billion dollars he possesses, acquired from the materials he stole from the Smithsonian when he was 8, including the first molecule formed during the Big Bang, as well as the only proof that man and dinosaurs roamed the Earth together.

As for this reporter, I will once again be leading the world's most successful rap group on a world tour, including:

Cooperstown (Valley)Forge (r)

In accord with full disclosure, I have used the following from a current eBay listing to sum up my opinion on the subject matter of this thread:

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Exactly my experience, Derek. I wondered why items I consigned the felonious selling crew went for eBay prices when other items were through the roof. Now I know.

BTW, Brian, that Ruth is a great card.

So... what's the solution to this mess?

Respectfully, the notion that your unshilled cards sell for "next to nothing" seems somewhat inconsistent with the oft-argued notion that shilling on some items raises prices across the hobby. The baseball card version of a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. That point has been made several times in this thread, and in many prior discussions.

I doubt anything meaningful will happen to fix the problem unless legislation is passed and/or enforcement becomes more widespread. Like another stated however many posts ago, the pervasiveness of auction house shilling is not surprising.

There are of course transparency steps that Auction Houses could utilize, but won't, in some perceived name of privacy. As wonderful as this hobby can be, it is filthy, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Not trying to sound sanctimonious, but I would bet more people are worried about the financial impact it might have on their collections than on the company they keep.

I think the only solution is to make this practice so egregious that no one ever tries it again. That would mean ceasing all bidding with anyone associated with shilling. That would also mean ceasing all business with a TPG that contributed to the shilling, as well as making questionable conflict of interest decisions re: grading and selling their own cards. I'd also only bid in increments of one, which will drive down all prices and extend bidding longer, which will also probably drive away prospective bidders.

All in all it seems as though shilling will cost people (AH and TPGs) more money than they ever stood to gain. These opinions are meant to be taken broadly. I am not singling out any one person / company / business.

Keith
 

Keith should go to the sentencing and go into one of his diatribes / commentaries. Would pay to watch that.

I know Flip Filipowski invested in (bought) Mastro, but was there another Filipowski that actively worked there?

Flip's name is Andrew and Andrew is on the list so presumably the same.

right the fact that victim was 'legit' and was able to pay a certain price means that maybe in a direct deal that victim would of maybe paid that same price.....we also went through the scenario that another legit buyer may of been out there but the bidding slot was already taken by the first legit buyer so the card may not of even needed to be shilled..

perhaps the other poster here just thought their cards were worth more than they really are and was hoping for magic with an auction.....its not the first time a seller would overvalue a card and not sell it in a direct deal and then get disappointing results at an AH..

now if the the shilled cards were exactly the same card visually and from the same grade of a card that was submitted and sold for 'next to nothing'..then i think that's a different story..

but in reality the non shilled cards were being sold at legit market price...

Peter,

Thanks. The reason for the question was I vaguely recall talking to a Filipowski on the phone at Mastro's and it sure as heck wouldn't be some guy worth $100+ million. Just can't verify or 100% prove it wrong.

A son or other relative perhaps?

Keep in mind that this is in no way isolated to our hobby. This is a systemic problem with phone/internet auctions across as many hobbies as have them. The fruit is just too low hanging. And, to continue my tree analogy, the roots of the auction industry, TPG industry, and collectors' love for this hobby are so intertwined, that at this point paring back any one too much may kill all three.

I'll be really impressed
 

If anyone who accepts advertising money refuses ads from people (or their employers) mentioned in the list

Rich

One thing for some yutz on eBay supporting his buddy with a few fake bids. Quote another for someone who runs an auction house to be an active participant in fraud. I'd be awfully concerned about class action lawsuits if I was one of these guys.