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Nice |
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What a f----d up hobby this has become. :( |
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It appears the auction was taken down. Once again, the guys at BODA are total rockstars and heroes of the hobby. I am glad for them bc clearly PSA is wholly inept.
Go BODA! Thanks for all your hard work. Side note/thought - what if everyone kicked in $50 or $100 each year and we, as a hobby, hired BODA, and some guys trained by BODA, to just troll auctions and listings and out cards that appear to be altered. In other-words, the hobby voluntarily funds a watchdog TPG for the benefit of the hobby. Obviously it needs thought and there are many operational issues, not the least of which is funding, but I, for one, would contribute to that cause. |
How about all pitch in for a large table/both at EVERY MAJOR CARD SHOW ACROSS THE COUNTY TO SET UP WITH A LARGE SCREEN COMPUTER/TV ILLUSTRATING EVERY ALTERED SLABED CARD DISCOVERED BY THE BODA. IN THE FRONT OF THE ROOM ENTRANCE OR BETTER YET RIGHT NEXT TO THE LARGEST TPG IN THE INDUSTY. RUN IT CONSTANTLY THROUGH OUT THE WHOLE HOURS OF THE SHOW
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I’m all for the above.
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I think this would have to start with emails between the owners and moderators of these Internet venues, as well as longtime collectors reaching out to others they know in the hobby who would be interested in supporting the cause. |
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can even be researched before shipping the card to the buyer....especially for cards that sell for a certain number such as 5k + |
It’s become readily apparent that none of the leading hobby businesses care a lick about the consumer, who happens to be their life-blood. Only dollars, market share and profits resonate with them. So unfortunately it is us collectors who have to look out for one another.
I don’t know what a booth at the National costs. But if someone at BODA can get it off the ground, I’ll contribute $100 towards the continuous loop video showing the thousands of examples of altered cards in PSA Slabs. Given PSA’s money, power and status within the Industry, I’m sure they’d find a way to squelch it very quickly (similar to how they censor/delete valid concerns in their own Forum). Even though we’re all well versed on the problems and corruption, I would estimate that 98% of submitting collectors remain unaware. This could help to spread the word far better than anything that’s been done to date. It would have bigger impact in Chicago than AC, so there’s about a year and a half to get it going, should someone at BODA want to take it on. |
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https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=235
Lajoie Horrendous This would be a perfect example, amongst thousands of other disgraced graded cards to show on Display at every card show next to their booth....... This is the opinion you’re paying for....think twice |
Ugh. Hopefully one of our centering mavens didn't buy it, or if they did they will see the post and return the thing.
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To (kind of) quote Steely Dan... But they wouldn't know a trimmed card if they held it in their hand The things they think are precious, I can't understand. |
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You one-upped me! |
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PSA had every incentive to grade that $5,000 Gehrig with a number, and charge the corresponding grading fee. They saw something significant enough wrong with the card that they passed up that grading fee. |
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I've never had an asset graded by any TPG so I'm just asking because I don't know how it works. I assumed the grading fee correlated to the actual value of the asset. |
Sadly everything to me is baked in........except it or move on seems to be the theme of the industry/hobby............I’m totally in a seemingly endlessly melancholy state in terms of the hobby.
It’s sad...... |
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So, regarding the other concurrent thread, a buyer pays over $5k for a card graded 7, he then presumably pays the PSA fee to confirm authenticity/altered status/regrade, discovers it has been doctored, and returns the card (without the deceptive - worse than worthless - GAI holder.) It seems to me that the buyer really came out on the short end, losing those PSA fees. And the seller receives his card back, along with info PSA determined, without having to pay PSA for it. Ordinarily I would say the seller received a free review of his card and should appreciate that, but of course I understand, since the news from PSA was bad, it was news the seller did not want to hear. And since the card is now out of the GAI holder, its doctored status can no longer be hidden. |
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The buyer is trying to have it both ways here. They bought a card, and cracked it out to send to PSA raw. This should invalidate the return process since the card is no longer in the condition it was sold in; that's the risk that comes from cracking a card out. PSA's determination of minsize or alteration is their opinion, effectively. The seller should have never clicked on the button to accept the refund request. Now the owner of the cracked out card cannot return it down the line, and is stuck with a loss through no fault of their own (presuming they purchased it in good faith). |
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The only question really is, who takes the hit? The guy who was cheated originally (the seller) or the guy who paid his own money to PSA to uncover the fraud (the buyer.) |
It's like ripping the tag off a mattress or slicing the factory warranty sticker on a computer tower. Once you've cracked the card from the case, you've invalidated the warranty. That's the risk with taking the card out of the holder in the first place. If the card graded a VG-EX 4 by PSA instead of Altered, could the buyer return it to the seller at that point?
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The card was altered. That does not have anything to do with a bunch of experts opining whether the card is a 4, or 5, or 6.... At some point someone doctored the card, and presumably GAI didn't discover the deception. All these years later, the deception was uncovered. Outing doctored cards is a good thing, a public service to the hobby. At least it used to be........ now I wonder... |
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So......... no. |
Ok, so you're a straw man guy. Got it.
I didn't realize there was any proof the card originally in the GAI holder was altered. PSA declared it was after the card was removed from the holder. There is no understanding of whether or not the card was altered after being cracked out, by the buyer. It may have been fine in the GAI holder, just overgraded. Again, the precedent this sets is that any card can be removed from the holder and returned for a refund. Which would lead to even more fraud. I am all for rooting out fraud in the space, this just doesn't seem like the same thing. Your arguments are being read as white-knighting for the buyer, who know they did something wrong and are trying to pass the buck back to the unsuspecting seller. |
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Ebay has said that they treat GAI differently than the current, recognized TPG: Beckett, PSA, SGC. So your precedent of people cracking, resubmitting, and returning wouldn't work on ebay regarding those slabs in the first place. And I don't think it should've worked had alterations not been discovered in this case. This is NOT a matter of a guy buying a card, trying to get a better grade, seeing he can't, then returning the card out of its slab. Everybody in the world knows that would be wrong. This is about discovering and exposing a deception that seriously impacts the value of the actual card. You didn't respond to my answer to your computer scenario. I am curious what your thoughts are, so I'll repeat my question to you: What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud? |
I actually wrote a response to the computer scenario, but as you seem to just be arguing to argue, I didn't intend to continue the conversation.
If the computer was working properly, and you were sold a lemon but didn't know it, is there really an issue that required the slicing of the seal? If the computer was malfunctioning, and you knew that by slicing the seal you were voiding the warranty, wouldn't you return the computer, with seal intact, whether the parts were fake or they were real and just broken? You are adding a lot of hypotheticals to this issue where they don't really apply, so you are using "straw man" logic. |
It doesn't matter why someone breaks the seal on the computer. What matters is that when he does and fraud is revealed, it is the fraud that meatters Not the seal. Not the GAI holder.
I am arguing to argue, while you are on some higher ground? Whatever. In your world, if a guy flattens out corners of a card, then neatly trims them sharp, in such a way that the only way the alteration can be detected would be to inspect the edges and measure the thickness, then all he has to do is get it slabbed and he's home free! 1. If the card remains slabbed, nobody ever knows. 2. If the card is cracked and the alteration discovered, no recourse for the buyer because he cracked it out. You said I was white-knighting for the buyer. Now I will ask you, are you white-knighting for card doctors? |
Ok man, have a good time. I think I've proven I'm not a fan of the card doctors. What we haven't proven is that your wronged buyer isn't the card doctor himself.
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Early Global Authentication was just as good as any other TPG. They devolved later on, but depending on when this card was graded by GAI, it could've been perfectly legit in that slab. Lots of assumptions being made here, and lots of NON apples-to-apples scenarios being thrown around.
Perhaps this particular thread should revert back to its original subject matter of outed altered cards, and we debate the cracked out card solely within the other thread. :rolleyes: |
Don’t we have another thread going for this GAI returned item scenario?
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Exactly… Hopefully the discussion of the cracked GAI Card can remain solely in that thread.
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I've pondered if collectors (for those who do) accept altered cards that are mislabeled, how can they turn around and argue they should that they should be refunded for a card that is misidentified (fake labeled as authentic)?
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I think everything is baked in now.....all the information is readily available for everyone. I see nothing changing we will see the same mantra.....be careful whom you buy from, buy from trusted reputable guys only...buy the card not the holder ect.....many people could care less if their card/cards are altered as long as they're in that almighty NB Slab all is cool to them.
Idk...It's very weird logic doesn't define reality ........above is my reality of this situation |
58 White Letter Goes From a 8.5 to a 10 please check out.
BODA Corndog https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=237 |
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I agree with you Pete..... however The Problem Lies with PSA too........
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I don’t buy those sales numbers not for one second !!! |
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some people said why would there be lawsuits over cards that are less than 10k at issue but i think everyone will agree now there appears to be a number of cards with potential damages of over 10k...heck over 200k etc.....still it appears everyone is happy....hard to say this is rocking the hobby and 40k+ grade increases keep happening when no lawsuits filed...people appear to be happy or dont care.....basically there dont appear to be any victims.... i know i know...'its too early to tell etc' |
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We are indeed tired and frustrated, yes...
But we also realize it takes more time for this to fully play out. I personally don't want the FBI to make snap decisions to include a few slaps on the wrist. I'm hoping they conduct a deep and involved investigation, in which all the connected dealers, card doctors and TPGs are identified, exposed to the public, put out of business, and punished accordingly. The deeper they investigate, the more likely it is that they'll find the damning evidence they need to convict. New fraud and corruption is turning up every single day. So it's probably a good thing that this is dragging on. |
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The optimism is probably indeed futile. But I still think it’s ridiculous to expect finality on the part of law enforcement anytime soon. It should take a larger chunk of time for them to sort this out. Perhaps nothing will come of it, and this is all just wishful thinking. Hope that’s not the case.
And I do agree with you about everything being fake. Fake grades, fake registries, and fake trust. |
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However if there are no 'victims' at least victims to an extent someone would file lawsuit over and not enough damages at issue (i dont think fbi are brought in for 200 bucks etc) i dont think anything will be done. Everyone was jumping on me for saying nothing was done a month after all of this..now we are at 9 months?, what about after 2 years.....sooner or later time has to be an issue... |
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6 years from now will i still be asked about what do i know what the FBI is doing?. i still wont know especially if there is no announcement of any arrest in the hobby .. if you heard about an arrest i stand corrected.. |
In my mind irregardless of what the authorities uncover and or prosecute it’s already all out there, everyone has all the information to make an informed decision based upon the facts and evidence already discovered. No matter what happens in regards to prosecution or lack there of is going to change my mind, it’s made up. To Me It’s all priced in. This hobby/industry has survived all the scummy past wrong doings and it will survive this one as well.
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I already know deep-pocketed investors who considered investing in high grade slabbed vintage cards but who backed off due to the info that has been coming out over the past several months. I don't believe anybody can predict with much certainty how this will play out over the coming months/years, except to say that in my experience eventually the market absorbs into its pricing the reality of what something is. |
The troubling thing is even folks who know about the scams still do business with the scammers. Nothing will really change until a financial message is sent and a lot of collectors refuse to send that message.
I wouldn't think this investigation is very high on the FBI's priority list and if an arrest is eventually made, is a prosecutor going to put much effort into a trial? |
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I think it's still just the opposite. I would bet that less than 5% of active card collectors frequent net54 and other forums. And I'd bet that less than 10% of the buying/submitting public is aware of what has taken place. Most probably suspect that a few altered cards have snuck through, but have no idea of the extent, or the iron-clad "before and after" evidence. Not sure if the word will ever spread to an actual majority of collectors, but I suppose time will tell. |
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True...
But I did notice that Huggins & Scott has A LOT of ungraded / raw cards featured in their current auction. Most are in group lots, but still good to see! |
The sad part is many of the alleged longtime card doctors are still going/selling strong in the hobby year after year. At every major card show either set up or walking the floor.
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Awful....complete disgrace
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Seems like if a card has four sharp corners, the doctors can do everything needed to take a 6 or a 7 to an 8 or a 9 without the graders even noticing. I feel sorry for the guy that bought the '51 Mays.
Jeremy W@ggoner |
Unfortunately, with S_C's randomly generated certs, there is no way to know what else was submitted with it.
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Did you notice some of the postings prior to the Mays? This '58 Clemente is another doozy in regards to bump-ups and profit made, yet the poster can't see any alterations. I'll only add that all four corners should be pristine under magnification to garner a PSA 10, which should not be the case for a PSA 8.5. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5907 |
This is such a racket.........what a fraud over inflated industry.....complete sham notice all of these doctored cards end up in auctions....be a man and sell your butcher jobs yourself. No they hide behind the auction house......what complete BS
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