Kudos to that. :):) I don't know Leon, never meet him. But have some big time respect for how he runs this board. Makes the other forums look like a bunch of amateurs.

There's lots more coming on this, and it will turn much, but not all, of what's been said here on its head. Stay tuned.

Quoted for future reference.

:eek:

Oh shillt!

Shilling just 1 of many problems in Houses
 

Ron makes a very valid point in that shilling is not the only problem area with auction houses. He addresses "outright fakes and misrepresentation items" in which I would agree that this is actually worse than shilling. For example if I was a Art Auction house and was offering a Monet original art piece and I knew the piece was a forgery, is that not worse than fake bidding it up?

As I say, if you identify a seller doing one deceptive thing, they are more than probably doing other deceptive things. The sole motive of scammers is to maximize profits.

When you identify a seller doing something highly unethical or highly deceptive you can't knowingly identify all the unethical and deceptive (and perhaps illegal) methods they are using, you just know they are an unethical or deceptive seller. And that should be enough.

That's why I roll my eyes when people on Net54 in effect say "I know this eBay seller is selling items he knows are fake and that he may have made himself, but other items look good and I'm going to bid on those." I think "With all the good sellers out there, why they Hell are you choosing to buy from a seller who you know is trying to scam buyers? . . . And are you then going to come back to this board and complain that the item you bought from him was fake, altered or his his shipping rates were too high or that he may have shilled you or the description turned out not to be entirely accurate? Are you going to say 'I knew he was forger, but how was I supposed to know he'd lie about the provenance and use deceptive pictures?'"

drcy-----GREAT POINT

hard to argue this.

especially when the cu admin posts this:

"Hi all,

Perhaps as a non-IT person, I may not be explaining it correctly, but I assure you that I'm not trying to stall or place blame elsewhere.

That said - we are a grading company first and foremost. This means our resources will be directed to our grading/internal systems first.

I am not saying that the forums aren't important, but they do have to fall in line in the long list of priorities.

As I've said, we do appreciate your patience. I got word from our IT group that they were able to figure out the line break issue at least and it appears to be working.

There is a long list of issues we're trying to tackle and they will be addressed in due time.

-Forum Admin"



edit to add:


"i'm not trying to pass blame"

ahh. yea ya did. you blamed it on fusetalk and that you were waiting on them.



several months after the "upgrade" and member gets fed up. emails fusetalk himself. posts this:

"I asked FuseTalk and got this reply:

You may want to speak with your forum administrator and advise them of the issues - Collectors is responsible for the functionality of their installation. "



"i assure you, i'm not trying to stall"

ahh. yea ya did. that's exactly what ya did. not only that, you attempted to pass the buck and claim it was fusetalk's responsibility.



then today: "i am not saying that the forums aren't important..."

that's exactly what you are saying. but thanks for the months of misdirection and (using this next word as politely as possible), disinformation. gee thanks.



.

It would be naive to expect a company chatboard to allow unfettered criticism of the company and its products. Though that's why you shouldn't go to a company's message boards and press releases to get unfettered and objective information.

The hobby has been taught lessons about journalism lately.

I agree with those who would commend Leon for allowing this and other controversial threads to run their course.

The most remarkable aspect of the court filing, in my view, is the sheer pervasiveness of shill bidding during the period covered. One can only assume that Mastro engaged in similar conduct through much if not all of its existence. Jeff L should be commended for calling out Mastro officials long ago.

Query whether similar conduct was engaged in by other auction houses as I assume some of the same consignors and shillers did not limit their business to Mastro auctions?

In any event, going forward, it seems to me that the auction houses would be prudent to engage in some form of self-regulation. Assuming they don't, I think there is still a pretty good chance that the Mastro prosecutions will put the fear of God in all but the most brazen fraudsters.

Great post.\edit

Because when it comes down to it, if a bad or dishonest seller has something a person wants to add to their collection, they will push honesty, integrity, and ethics to the side, because they want it. Not sure if anyone could stop that from happening.

I think Mr Thomas knows what he is talking about.

rea dude retires.
sgc moves company.
cu all but pulls the plug on it's message board. goldfish in the toilet bowl.





"there is no coincidence. there is only the illusion of coincidence."

Why not, you can't simply refuse to bid?
This is not food and water we are talking about here, it's pictures of dead men on cardboard for the most part. At some point, if you keep getting in line to get peed on you shouldn't complain about getting wet.

I use a different logic and say a good method to help avoid purchasing forgeries is to not buy from forgers.

cu message board
 

just checked working fine for me and people have posted today, not sure what Bob is referring to as plug pulled?

if the fear is selling for years and make millions of dollars and only few out of a hundred people actually going to jail..then yeah they scared..

reread. all but pulled the plug. but "works" is a relative term.

impeccable timing to boot a ton of folks that use their voice, deletes thread that indicate internal stinky fish, initiate a so called upgrade that alienates half the board and still isn't working properly. blame the probs on some one else. get called out on it. and then have the audacity to reply w/ "you're just not that important right now".

so, technically it is a "working" ghost town...and timing is pretty convenient for them.

folks are simply fed up w/ the gag order presence and the way it's been run...

which getting back to my original post today is a complete nod to leon and this place.

Bob
 

That is nothing new that is par for the course over there. Has been for over a decade. Why would they allow people to use a forum on their website to possibly hurt their investors investment? I never quite understood why it shocks people that they don't allow themselves to be harshly criticized on their own website. I dont post over there very often. i post here occasionaly though. I agree this is a better forum.

decades of deleting self-damning threads?

100%.



the rest, all fairly recent.

and has since become a ghost town.



considering the timing and their reply...

pretty clear they don't mind one bit.


"never get cheated...unless one of our board of experts can assist"


.

Wrong answer. If the auction closing time is the issue, set a firm closing time, say midnight, but close all lots at the same time so anyone who is topped on a lot during OT can reroute to the next lot on his list. I reiterate: any time you close lots individually you cost the consignor money if there is someone who would have bid on a lot once he was beaten on a more desirable lot but was shut out because some lots closed earlier than others. I have been that someone more than once.

And as others have pointed out, the rules at Heritage allow for bidding practices that may result in a price being run up:

"The Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots."
"If a lot bearing estimates fails to open for 40–60% of the low estimate, the Auctioneer may pass the item or may place a protective bid on behalf of the consignor."

Administrator

Some additional upgrades have just been made to the forum! Here are 2 big improvements we've made...

1) The Collector to Collector and Items Wanted section will now require member log in. As I'm sure many of you have experienced, there are a lot of lurkers on the forum. Personally I've always been caught off guard and cautious, when I'm approached about an item by a non-member. Buying and selling should feel safe. We firmly believe that only members should benefit from this unique, free venue to buy, sell and trade.

2) You will now be able to edit your own posts. You can edit your posts for about 10 minutes after you've submitted them. I know this has long been a heartburn for members. This will allow you time to correct errors or add additional information.

As always, we'll keep looking for ways to improve your experience. Thank you to all the members that have suggested these two important updates.

Doug Reiser


If I showed up on a shit list I would think I would have better things to do than have my pet monkeys pulling chains

This from a henchman who never once posted memorabilia or probably collects anything except $$$$$$$

"Lurkers" LMFAAAAAOOOOO

Ron Kosiewicz

There's no perfect format and I think each closing method can result in a bidder getting hosed:

1. Close lots individually - may result in money allocated for auction not being spent due to some auctions of interest closing and then not winning later lots. May miss lots if you don't realize the auction is a lot by lot closing and log in later.

2. Allow auctions to go late until bidding slows - may result in unscrupulous AHs bumping up bids to your Max bids if they know what those are. Also doesn't allow bidders to change their mind on their "max" after they are outbid and asleep. Also hard for those on the east coast with jobs outside the hobby.

3. Close at a set time - lots and lots of snipes at the last minute that doesn't allow someone to change their max and bid more later. Also may surprise bidders who don't realize there is a set close time.

My personal preference from a bidders perspective is:
Approach 3, 1, 2.

I've never seen any research or studies that say one of these approaches is better/worse for consigners than the others. The general perception is that letting the auction run all the way to its inevitable end is best for consigners but, again, never seen any research that says this is true.

jeff

.

+1

interesting side note post:

so, shilling is actually allowable and a legal, protected practice under texas law.

interesting and good to know.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...ad.php?t=66976

Relax everyone. We can all sleep easy. Ken's on top of things.

-Alan Zimmerman

Well that didn't last long

My understanding is there are potentially damaging legal issues with the thread which was deleted. I would have taken the same action on this board. As for anything else I am not commenting at this time. But that deletion, I don't think, will eventually be classified as censoring. This issue has nothing to do with Ken or Goldin Auctions.

Thanks for that info Leon.
And if I was wearing a cap, I'd tip it to you for allowing this discussion on your forum.

Thank you Sir.

I don't want to be at post 666.:D

Redacted thread
 

I'm at a loss here. Can someone explain to me what thread was deleted and what the content was? It doesn't need to be super specific and generalization is ok. I tried the Link provided by Alan but it's a dead end. Just curious if it was finally a retort by Mr.Goldin in response to the current controversy at hand. Lastly this is the 3rd picture or reference of GUU/Goldin to apes or monkeys am I missing something here or is this a inside joke?Thanks all

So with this new information I hope two things will happen:

1.) The sports collectible auction "industry" will consolidate to the most trust worthy, best auction houses with great customer service. I am sure many of have our favorites as well as ones we are not fond of. We have already seen great expansion of the auction houses over the past ~10 years, and already started to see some contraction. If that contraction continues it will be good for the hobby (I'm not saying it boils down to 2 or 3 houses, but there a ton today) as sellers and bidders will have confidence in the process.

2.) More dealers and collectors will "sell" their cards and not just list in auction houses. I can remember 10+ years ago, when one would go to a large card show, there were so many great cards available for sale. Now it is challenging to purchase very good and great cards at a show. You can likely view them in an upcoming auction, but can not buy them. Often when I go to the National, I'll move on to a table and ask about a card (since virtually no cards are priced) and then find out it isn't for sale.

I know this news that comes out has meaningful negative implications. I'm simply looking for what, if any good may arise as I hope our industry cleans up and moves on.

Cory Weiser

Kevin Keating's response to his inclusion on the list

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217793

low reserve
 

i believe some shillers shill because they don't wanna lose they're pants off. AH's set reserves at crazy low reserves. This is indeed not in favor of the consignor. AHs only care if item sells b/c bottom line is they still come out with a consignment fee and the only loser is the consignor.Perhaps a solution to this may be letting the consignor set his/her own reserve. At least that would eliminate those shillers who shill to avoid a loss. Its better for the consignor to buy they're own items back than take a loss and letting consignors set the reserve might solve that.

I certainly understand the impulse: I lost a lot of money on some items that I sold in 2014 because IMO the AH set far too low an opening bid. The next time I consigned items for sale I required that the AH either set a reserve or guarantee me a minimum. There are enough alternatives out there for a seller to find an AH that won't put all of the risk on them. Or just sell your crap on eBay and set your own parameters. Regardless, not cheating other collectors isn't an option, it is a basic ethical value. Allen and crew lacked it and now they have to spend years in the pokey as a result. Good. I hope it hurts.

Shilling can be a viable strategy for consignors, but shouldn't be allowed by the AH's in fairness to the other bidders. If you're a consignor, get a decent reserve or minimum bid or find some other way to sell your items.

I'm not trying to excuse anyone's crappy wrongdoing, but is there really anyone here who didn't know shill bidding goes on in auctions? Really? I've known people asking friends to bid on their ebay auctions for 25 years. I'm not excusing anything, and the fact that the principles of auction houses were doing this is despicable, but the level of professed shock is really kind of stunning.

PS. Restaurant us lousy fish and put it in the stew; cops write a lot of tickets to meet quotas at the end of the month; doctors prescribe crap to get a commission; teachers play with the grades when their pay is dependent on it; bartenders give lousy vodka and lousy pours when you are not looking; and the guy in the sneaker store is going to try to talk you into the most expensive ones he sells.

Dear Son:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Love,

Mom.

I find your "teachers play with the grades when their pay is dependent on it" statement really damn offensive.

Double-crossing the FBI and DOJ on his cooperation agreement was about the dumbest thing Allen could have done, short of the underlying crimes. The Justice Dep't takes obstruction very seriously and Allen, accordingly, got what he deserved.

On the victim's list
 

Had some time tonight to catch up on the latest hobby happenings and saw the list of Mastro shill bids and their victims. Oddly enough, I saw my name on this list:
45 Oct‐07 1713 Mastro Auctions, Inc. Edward (Josh) Petrie Jeff Schwarz Jeff Schwarz $630.00 $390.00 $ 390.00

Wow!! I apparently overpaid by $390 because of the shill bids. I know it does not make it right, but I have no record of what the item was, and I apparently had no trouble paying the higher dollar amount because I must have wanted the item badly enough. Many victims were taken for far more, and it was a shame that guys who I called my "hobby friends" (we are all Chicago area guys and Mastro actually invited me to his house once to see his collection - AMAZING!) would do that type of activity.

Guys just getting too greedy. They were the leaders in the field and wanted more. Sad.

Indeed. I have taught college since I was 23 (33 years) and not only have I never "played with a grade" to make or save money, I have even never heard of such a thing happening.

I taught for 8 years
 

and never gave or changed a grade for any reason nor was I ever asked to. Of course I taught mainly kinder and first grade :-0 - but did teach up to the 8th. I would have to agree it's bit insulting to disparage the profession - one in which legislators and supervisory staff are paid well in excess of a teacher's salary coupled with too large class sizes (especially in the poorest areas) and inadequate funding for books and a full well rounded curriculum. There are always individuals looking to get something for nothing but I would suggest that happens far less often within the teaching community than many other avocations in which an opinion carries some weight relative to the subject.

I apologize for my comment. I was not trying to insult anyone but made a dumb comment. My brother is a lifelong teacher and I believe it is the most important job in the world. And terribly underpaid and under appreciated.
On the east coast we have had numerous scandals in the last few years where principals and teachers have cooked grades where raises and promotions were tied to scores on standardized testing. Examples where principles have erased grades and changed them where they felt their job was on the line. This obviously reflects the efforts of a minimal amount of people.
I am truly sorry that I made such a dumb comment.

easy guys, i knew what he was talking about.

and i can understand why any teachers would get offended about it, because ya should!

it's happening in the middle / high school public systems here. basically, the teachers are under a quota for a certain percentage to pass a standardized test or they lose their job. several caught red handed and even found guilty of racketeering. yes, racketeering!

you teachers should be appalled, as well as any parents. it's disgusting, but i don't think his comment was directed at all teachers and certainly not college professors.

it is happening though.

edit: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...401-story.html

I am appalled, trust me. I'm also appalled at the constant legislation that states we have to meet nearly-random set scores or, in the end, the entire school gets shut down.

IMHO, I also disagree with the shoe sales comparison, too. I think it's a salesperson's JOB to try to get you to buy stuff, the more the better.

But enough of this, let's get back to the main point.

Same thing was a huge deal in Atlanta city schools in the last 10 years, reaching to highest levels of administrators as well. A very few bad apples just like any other profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrapperguy (Post 1502079) Had some time tonight to catch up on the latest hobby happenings and saw the list of Mastro shill bids and their victims. Oddly enough, I saw my name on this list: 45 Oct‐07 1713 Mastro Auctions, Inc. Edward (Josh) Petrie Jeff Schwarz Jeff Schwarz $630.00 $390.00 $ 390.00 Wow!! I apparently overpaid by $390 because of the shill bids. I know it does not make it right, but I have no record of what the item was, and I apparently had no trouble paying the higher dollar amount because I must have wanted the item badly enough. Many victims were taken for far more, and it was a shame that guys who I called my "hobby friends" (we are all Chicago area guys and Mastro actually invited me to his house once to see his collection - AMAZING!) would do that type of activity. Guys just getting too greedy. They were the leaders in the field and wanted more. Sad.

Jeff.........that appears to be a Topps Battle wrapper..........

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=76298

As a lawyer, I endure daily comments, from friends, family, and complete strangers about what a sleazy profession. I am sure there have been dozens of sleazy lawyers comments in this thread alone. I guess I've gotten immune to such nonsense.

Wrong to disparage an entire profession obviously based on the actions of a few knuckleheads.

I really don't see any reason to apologize. You pointed out some basic truths on how certain occupations 'stretch the truth' (for lack of a better description). You never once indicated that ALL were guilty in each profession of such 'crimes'. And there is truth to what you said that this DOES happen in each profession.

I do find it interesting that those who teach or have taught were the most vocal in taking offense. Maybe, and as it relates to the thread, they other professions are silent here because they are the ones writing the tickets and using old fish. :D

And to someone's comment on "certainly not college professors", I'm hoping that was tongue-in-cheek or included rolling eyes. :)

99% of all lawyers give the rest a bad name...:)...

Nope, as a physician AND teacher's son, I rolled my eyes.

60% of the time, it works every time..............

Its Funny when I went after a (lawyer) I wont say a name:D in this thread I got a PM and he asked me why I wasnt attacking the other lawyer that was also on the list. I found that very ironic....

well Tom
 

with 79% of all statistics incorrect - as a Florida resident I'll take my full 110% - 40% of me believes you - 40% siding with what lawyers have to say - and 35% of me undecided.

I am actually always the guy defending teachers. I think it's beyond bizarre that people get their hackles up about a young guy or girl beginning their teaching career getting paid $21,000 a year, but no one seems to mind much that people are starting at an investment bank at five or ten or twenty times that and doing who knows what. Maybe it the whole summers off thing, but I see my brother grading papers on the weekends, making plans on the weekend, and always going the extra mile. It's a lot of hours if you care about what you are doing. As a society we think teachers of young kids are supposed to be both amazing babysitters and incredible educators, yet we treat them like second class citizens. Here where I live the teacher's unions haven't done them a whole lot of good (e.g., you can't fire the guy who inappropriately touched the kid without 27 hearings and have to keep him in a room somewhere collecting checks), but that's a different diatribe entirely.

I can't think of any other profession where you can be successful by screwing people, and not be doing something illegal. The entire profession isn't sleazy - just certain branches.

Which branches are those?

None of them Peter. They are all nice and there should not be any lawyer jokes.

Totally agree. I also think the law itself encourages a lot of this, but the Trial Lawyers Association resists any meaningful tort reform.

In many disputes, one party is in the right while the other isn't, or one party is reasonable and the other is greedy, and so on. There have to be plenty of times when lawyers think to themselves: "I'm working for the jerk and my job is to help him screw the good guy."

But, lawyers work for whomever hires them, and sometimes that's the jerk.

*Perry Mason was the exception - his clients were always innocent.

A lawyers' job is to use every tool he or she possibly can to represent the interests of his client as long as they are within the ethical rules governing lawyering. A lawyers' obligation is not to you, or me, but to his/her client and the court. If you violate the rules and go over the line you should be punished.
Some times they're not, but for those of you outside the legal system you'd be surprised how many times state bar associations eventually catch up with the bad guys and root them out.

I always thought Johnny Cochrane gave the best legal performance of my lifetime, and I know he pissed off a couple of hundred million people. Was a zealous advocate. Did everything he could to get his client off the crime for a crime every one of us was probably convinced he did. Hell, people represented the Nazis in American courts. Representing unpopular people is I think the most noble part of the profession and upholds the values our country was founded on.

Exactly - they are doing their job as their job is defined.

It's baffling to me that anyone would not understand the jokes and remarks about lawyers. The fact that lawyers are necessary and some of them are wonderful people doing wonderful things, is also understood.

Okay, I'm though trying to fix people on the internet for today.

Lawyers
 

If you are fortunate you may never need one. If you need one, tell them a bunch of lawyer jokes by way of introduction. :)

Someone once told me that teaching is the only career that demands the protection of a union while insisting on being treated as professionals.

There are great teachers out there who are grossly underpaid, but there are crappy ones who never get weeded out because of the union. I've never heard of a union for lawyers. At least they're wiling to make a living on their own merits.

How bout the record business? :)

maybe 40yrs ago.

It is not a union per se but the American Bar Association does a very good job of representing lawyers.

Porn???

I'm not understanding why a few have mentioned they don't know or remember what a specific item is in which they got shilled? Very easy to look up. Legendary's website> history>,month and year> and lot # .

I'm done reading posts tonight because it can't get better. Freaking funny!!

40 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, last week and today.

Insurance. It is the only profession that consists of promising to help someone when they need it then trying to find ways to weasel out of it entirely or at least cut down on the value of the help to be rendered when the other side comes calling. There isn't a single insurance claim I've handled in 25 years of representing insureds where the insurance company hasn't tried to screw the insured out of something, whether by outright wrongful denial of a claim or by using unrealistic estimating tools to try to cut down on the payout.

Well stated and a hearty ditto! I can expand that period to at least 30 years of actual experience confronting that kind of behavior.

Best, Adam,

Larry

+2. Suing insurers for wrongfully denying the claims of their insureds is the only type of case my partners and I handle. If insurers treated their insureds honestly, we would be out of business. We are, however, always busy.

:):):)

::slow clap::


well played, sir.

well played.

That's why I stopped doing insurance defense: I realized the best day ever for an insurer's appointed defense counsel is the day he beats a genuinely injured person out of a recovery.