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http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...53#post1631953 |
Leon, What's the longest post in Net54 history? What's the Guiness World Record??
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http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=145243 |
So, who bought the card? A hunch is the "new" owner of the card knows everyone who has owned this card and it wouldn't be a surprise if a previous owner won the card. It helps to have more than one public auction price of 50k on it (Goldin/PWCC).
This might be the next infamous card like the Trimmed Wagner. The more we talk about it, the more popular the card gets. |
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The images speak for themselves.
For atleast the 4th time....maybe the 12th he was asked to bid to a value that he was assured would again be outbid. What story? There is a freaking screen shot of it. It is not a story that can't be corroborated. It is right there. Going commando. In it's glory. Plain as day. Where is the confusion here? |
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This is why we asked him to become the high bidder.
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I'm still curious how that card received the grade it did? :confused:
That hasn't been talked about lately in this thread. |
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http://luckeycards.com/bowman1951mantle.jpg |
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Leaving aside whether it should have been graded at all, the grade is generous but not indefensible. There are lots of cards where the number grade is marginal but technically accurate.
Leon, what's your opinion on the disclosure issue, now that the facts have emerged? |
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[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1632041]So you agree PWCC withheld a material fact, given his prior involvement with and knowledge of the card's history?[/QUOTE
Leon appeared to say that the card doesnt look out of place in a PSA 7, and PSA was not totally in the wrong for grading the card a 7 So that would mean that someone bought a legit PSA 7. Thats far from scam behavior. Someone bought a PSA 7 and received a PSA 7 as far as the scam side. As far as integrity and civil issues aside, this does not look criminal/scam if some people share those views. PWCC may of withheld a material fact as well as you keep saying, and other sellers would of disclosed things but that does not change what i said above. Others may disagree but my position is supported as well. The shilling and colluding is another issue. |
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You comprehended my last statement well. Thank you.
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You may of explained it before and you can repost it if you did. Plus if you arent going to pay for it now which i imply based on your 'obviously isnt going to happen due to the circumstances' comment, then why does the invoice matter if you arent going to pay anyway Perhaps you won items, and he never delivered them to you and he canceled the deal as well |
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I would never be able to show my face in public if everyone I knew through here thought I was a complete moron. Good lord. Give it up. |
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Shill The next question should be what did Courtney get for his excellent shilling skills? |
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I am glad you have your understanding of it.
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If you really want to defend PWCC, why don't you argue that despite knowing the card's history it was OK not to disclose it? That would at least be a worthy discussion, perhaps. |
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1) Brent marked the cards paid before my paying for them; I have not received the cards. If he cancelled the purchase due to a non-payment, why was I not blocked for being a non-paying bidder? Also, why did I wire him 250K the month prior for another agreement? All of this is simple, elementary logic. 2) I stated that since the cards were marked "paid", that ebay or paypal doesn't allow you to pay them "again". That being the case, the only method of payment that falls within the ebay/paypal buyer/seller protection guidelines is not available to me since he's marked them as already paid. My only option now is to pay via wire or paypal gift. THAT is what I said was not going to happen....paying him a disclosed amount with no accounting in place to document it. 3) Therefor, I have asked on multiple occasions for a PAYPAL INVOICE detailing what the $59,310 was for and STATED THAT IT would be paid immediately. My guess is he knows I've got him by the balls here and wants to be able to throw rocks at me for this "unpaid debt" that they referenced. I owe them $59,310. I'm not disputing that. Get them to invoice me, and I'll screenshot a picture of the payment min's later. Do I need to detail that any further b/c it seems pretty cut and dry to me? I can't pay what he marked paid b/c ebay won't let me. I'm not going to wire them when they're bashing me due to a "very large unpaid debt" even though he and I have worked off of wires for over 5 years. This particular case is a little different; wouldnt you agree? Again, I've asked for an invoice on multiple occasions and he refuses to send it to me. The last time I asked (2/8/17) was actually 2 min's after he said "you need to worry about what you owe us and not.....". In that screenshot, I asked again for an invoice and have yet to get one. I would absolutely love for Brent/Betsy to provide "proof" of something that can dispute ANY of what I've said or am saying. Again, I'm not going to put myself in a legal jam by saying things that aren't true about someone or a company. However, when I have the proof, and when you lie to me and piss me off bad enough, I will go to the ends of the earth to unearth the last thing on the planet that he wants you guys to see. Again, if you're going to question me on something I've already stated, please at least make sure you've read the entire post and not simply skimmed through it. I'm beginning to think that you and David are on the same team here and no matter what one says, you're going to try and find a way to spin it in another direction, or intentionally manipulate or overlook SHOWN FACTS. If the latter is the case, STFU and quit responding to my posts. |
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Welllllllll its a battle royale cage match fellas...who will come out on top...villain of the hobby or good guy.
The odds are certainly stacked in favor of the villains...can Bob Backlund pull this against all odds victory out?????? |
Don't look know but Vince McMahon has just been thrown into the cage!!!!!!!
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Or keep responding, it's simply much easier for me to ignore the clueless morons like yourself than to fight a futile battle with an uneducated moron. But, I do wonder, how many of my many millions in cards that Brent sold for me do you actually own? |
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There you go again, not listening. Re-read the posts that people have quoted you on, then followed it up with the same comments about you. I was reading one this morning, where you, just like the people you complain about are in the PWCC thread talking it up. No surprise. CySemour: http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...&postcount=211 Whodunit: Countless. Putting them all here is pointless. Peter_Speath: I am not arguing any more with a guy with blinders on. Besides the fact that I have been praised for calling you a moron from different people: PM 1: I am sick of David and his contrarian approach. He loves to argue and spew shit for the sake of seeing his posts. PM 2: David James will never learn; been watching him spew his garbage for years on this board. A simple search of your username and the word idiot, returns 500 hits. 5 HUNDRED hits. I have read countless amounts of these in my short time here as you suggest. Imagine how many more I can compile as I go? As I find them, I will keep adding them to the list for you. |
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1) I think it's pretty well established that PWCC was at least in some way involved with the purchase of the card from REA, which was prior to any "changes". They were then involved with the subsequent sale of the card after those "changes", so I think it logically follows that they knew the "changes" had been made. I don't think it really matters whether they were "owners" or "brokers" from the standpoint of responsibility for the changes, they had knowledge of it. They were then involved a 2nd time in the sale of the "changed" card, and it seems pretty clear that in neither instance did they disclose or point out that "changes" had been made. I'm not trying to make a sweeping all encompassing judgment of disclosure requirements here, but I think we can all agree in this specific example the "changes" are pretty "significant" and would be considered "material" information to many collectors. I think a lot of people view that lack of disclosure as at least mildly dishonest, or maybe a better phrase is misleading through ommission? In either description, there's absolutely a question of "intention" is there not? 2) I don't view "string bids" (whether you take the lead or not) made at what is well less than the expected ending price of an auction to be shilling, but I also recognize that may not necessarily be the majority view - however I do think that distinction is pretty relevant to forming an opinion around the text message asking Courtney to "take the lead". I think I tend to agree that the overall context of the text discussion is relatively harmless, except for the part where it goes to being "outbid". This is where views on string bids separate opinions. PWCC seems to "know" that the bids will go higher, and if so then why would the string bid matter whether taking the lead or not? I know folks will say it "looks bad" and PWCC even implies that understanding in the texts, but again these sorts of bids at well less than final sale price ultimately are irrelevant to the final sale price. Sure it bumps "activity", but it doesn't ultimately affect the price. However, I acknowledge that if you fall in the camp that string bids are really a form of shilling, then the "you will get outbid" statement becomes at least somewhat concerning doesn't it? 3) I've thought a lot about what the correct designation for this card is, and I'm not able to come to a conclusion that a PSA 7 is in any way accurate. My logic is as follows. At some point, the original card "toned" except in areas on the right side that almost look like it was "clipped" or "taped", whatever prevented those areas for also toning. Somehow, the card was returned closer to it's original presentation. So from that standpoint, I don't think "altered" is the right assessment, because the toned card wasn't really in its original condition. However, removing of the toning (whether water or chemical) ultimately "restored" the card closer to the original condition and to me that is the accurate grading of the card - it's been RESTORED. I should add that I don't believe it's always possible to know a card has been "restored", and for now I think we're giving the grader the benefit of the doubt. Although, a close inspection of the pictures here still indicate the "shadow" areas of the "clip/tape", and I probably fall in the camp that for a card at this value level that should have been identified, which I believe would have led to better understanding of its history and ultimately would have landed it in a different holder. |
Well, I am officially out of popcorn, and this thread has run its course.
1 very quick comment. Shame on EVERYONE involved with this incident. Disgraceful members of the hobby. I don't care how much money anybody has or spends on the hobby. The content of one's wallet does not determine the content of one's character. Sincerely, A $20 collector who is happy in life |
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This card, which is a beauty of a card has been restored, altered, adjusted, tampered with, or whatever verb you want to used. Where is the cutoff point where it should not be identified as "altered" by PSA? This is being discussed throughout multiple online forums and offline circles right now because of this whole situation. I fully agree that coloring in corners on a 71, trimming edges/corners, etc. need to be identified as "altered." Those cards should never be purchased at a premium. Does flattening a card constitute going over the line, does removing wax stains constitute going over the line, does de-toning an old card constitute going over the line. Some are fine that this card is a 7, but knowing what it looked like before the restoration of it, clouds that I think. With all this said, I'll reiterate something a previous member posted...this card is going down as a major card now and we (and all parties involved - whatever that involvement might be) have given it provenance...like the McNall-Gretzky Wagner. This card now has a story. |
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