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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>It disturbs me that Mr. Morales has not come back on to take the challenge. What disturbs me more is that the Secret Service or any other government agency has not stepped in to stop this. Plain and simple, this is fraud. Mr. Morales and STAT are helping companies sell forged or faked items. If I were to start selling fake rolex watches on my website or on ebay and I got some bloke to "authenticate" them, I would be in jail rather quickly as would the "authenticator." I see no difference. It pains me that Coach's Corner is allowed to stay in business. It pains me more that Mr. Morales who was supposed to be a trusted government official can actually justify ripping off the American Public. Isn't there more we can do to force these people to stop?<br /><br />Joshua Levine<br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Mark Evans - Shelly would be the one to know about Wall of Fame and he knows Mantle/Marino signatures better than anyone.<br />I suggest you e mail him a digital pic of your ball if you cannot post it here. It is not difficult to post here, click Insert Object. Then click temp files, click upload, click browse, find the file on your hard drive, click on the file and open, click upload, then finally click insert link.<br />Bobby Brown baseballs are absolutely not any assurance of legit Mantle sigs.<br />You just have to find a trustworthy dealer and pay the going rate, which I do think is $500-600. Don't look for bargains in autographs, that is how all this crap still thrives.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Josh - <br /><br />The reasons "nothing is being done" are multiple:<br /><br />a.) After setting forth their extensive "qualifications, all of these authenticators qualify their qualifications (!)by stating in some form or another, that their statements are "opinions", not guarantees. So, you simply cannot jail someone for being incredibly stupid or inept. But, if the trend shows utter incompetence, those who have purchased bad material do have recourse in civil court. Sellers of bad material oftem get around that by offering full or partial refunds to particulalry noisy customers, knowing that lawsuits are very expensive for customers to commence.<br /><br />b.) Many auction houses rely on the authenticator's certification, and will not offer refunds on goods so-authenticated. In those cases, bidders must be wary and make sure that the authenticators used by the house are competent and reputable.<br /><br />c.) Federal action is difficult to invoke, and slow in operation. That does not mean that they will not jump on a case if it shows widespread, interstate fraud on a say, $250,000+ scale. Experience proves that the more press covering a scandal, the more likely the Feds will jump in to investigate. <br /><br />So...as I stated above - contact the press, anyone you know, who might cover the story. Feel free to ask for experts here. There are plenty of assets available to provide statements and testimony. Also, feel free to complain to Attorneys General of various states, such as Pennsylvania, Virginia, your own state, and wherever bad material is sold. <br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>Shelly shed some light on the "wall of fame" company.<br /><br /> This is what I remember, there were TWO companies, one called Wall of Fame in Knoxville, and one called WALLS of Fame(not sure on location) I believe the 2nd co. WALLS was named in OP Bullpen. Wall of fame in knoxville was bought out by Schwartz sports(around 2001?),which I believe to be a legit company, Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.<br /><br />That being said, thats still no proof your MM ball is real.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>CS Bolay</b><p>One thing I have thought about in regard to Morales/ Frangipani (and again, I must stress I am a complete legal ignoramus, so don't laugh at me <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) is their use as witnesses in court cases. <br /><br />Considering their shaky history in the autograph field, is it possible that defense lawyers could start using all their questionable 'forensic authentications' against them, or even to attempt to have convictions or testimony thrown out? I mean, if you mess up Babe Ruth a zillion times, how could render an opinion on Joe Schmo? <br /><br />Secondly, one thing that really drives me nuts is the increasing influence of the 'big acroynms' in the autograph world, PSA/GAI/STAT or whatever. Half of the guys there in said companies I've barely heard of, and some of the others certainly wouldn't be my first choice in their fields. <br /><br />But so many people act as if their opinions are oh-so-infallible, just because they have big advertising budgets or because Poodlydoop Auctions from SCD or Beckett uses them. <br /><br />I'd take the opinion of experienced, longtime dealers like Rich, Bill, Ron Gordon, James Lowe, Bill Ecker or Joyce Muns over Alphabet Soup anyday. But how many casual autograph collectors have ever heard of them? And how many would purchase from them before they would the same item with a fancy acronym stamped on it? <br /><br />Very few, I suspect, and that's unfortunate, one of the great tragedies in the current-day autograph hobby. The willingness of many collectors to blindly rely on forensic bigshots or big-money Alphabet Soup companies has lead to many of the same problems we are discussing in this thread.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>I was tempted to post this in the thread started by Don Fluckinger, but didn't want to hijack it, even though his questioned has been answered.<br /><br />The SCD site, <a href="http://standardcatalog.wordpress.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://standardcatalog.wordpress.com</a>, has articles, blogs, links, and advertising. I clicked on the auction block blog and of course Coaches Corner advertises on that page. Just above that ad, are links for eBay, PSA, Mears, Spence, etc? Why is is that STAT and Morales links are not listed? The authenticators for their biggest advertiser, and they do not have a free link for their customers.<br /><br />Does SCD by effect, endorse those companies, but not STAT and Morales? Is it an oversight that will be corrected? Or is it common sense and subtle distancing on their part?<br /><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>The only Wall of Fame I knew about was on the East Coast.<br />Marino used to joke around and call them Wall of Shame.<br />They bought hundreds of Marino autographs but were never prosecuted.<br />They also bought from other forgers.<br />World Series baseballs are loved by the forgers. Anaconda is still producing them today. They are not selling old stock, they are still printing these balls. WS balls from 1972 and up, with the favorites being 1978,1979, 1981 and 1994. These baseballs appear to be old balls to the collector but they are not. Paige and Munston are the two favorite forgeries on these balls.<br />Bobby Brown baseballs are no asurance that the ball could be authentic. Wayne Bray used to pay $100 apiece for Brown balls when he had a hard time getting them.<br />Finally, Bill is absolutely right. Contact who you can, send this thread to who you can. Law enforcement, newspapers, any contacts you guys have.<br />Especially those of you out there who have been burnt by these people. If you have bought a crap piece, go pursue legal action. Contact local authorities. <br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Does anyone have any information "good or bad" concerning "Ashland Hills Gallery" ? I bought an autographed Beatles item a couple of years ago which came with their COA. I was wondering about the odds of this one being real. Thanks any input appreciated. Mike
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Does anyone have any information "good or bad" concerning "Ashland Hills Gallery" ? I bought an autographed Beatles item a couple of years ago which came with their COA. I was wondering about the odds of this one being real. Thanks any input appreciated. Mike
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>I keep thinking to myself "How do they live with themselves..."
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>The same way any thief or criminal lives with themselves, I suppose. It really isn't much different than traditional shoplifting or stealing....<br /><br />The only fundamental difference is that they are being "enabled" by repeat customers who are either completely uneducated or too blind to know better.<br /><br />I equate it most closely to an auto mechanic who takes advantage of single women or a scam artist selling unnecessary products/services to the elderly. I think it is tougher to prosecute those slimeballs as well.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Ken</b><p>The one question I've always wanted to ask Mr. Morales is, to me, the most obvious:<br /><br />What percentage of items you view for Coach's Corner do you FAIL?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Last chance to bid in Coach's Corner auction, closing TODAY! <br /><br />Amazing bargains, showing present bid and market value, include:<br /><br /> <br />DIMAGGIO/MONROE SIGNED BASEBALL $774 $10,000+<br />(MORALES CERT.)<br /><br />RUTH AND GEHRIG CUT SIGS. $882 $3000+<br />(STAT CERT.)<br /><br />BEATLES SIGNED "ABBEY ROAD" $767 $60,000+<br />(STAT CERT.)<br /><br />PICASSO ORIGINAL ARTWORK $767 $100,000 OR SO!<br /><br />GEORGE WASHINGTON SIGNATURE $356 $6000<br />(MORALES CERT)<br /><br />Get out your checkbooks, buy these gems and send'em to any legitimate auction house. You'll make a bundle...but don't forget those certificates!
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Ken</b><p>Wow!! Well over 700 posts, and I jump in and make a comment and the whole thing ends!!<br /><br />Kinda reminds me of my high school dating life.<br /><br />Ken
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Ken...<br /><br />Since that made me chuckle, I will add a post (as if this thread really needs it...) I did not want it to end with that hard luck story. <br /><br />Also just wanted to see if any board members won something in the recently concluded Coach's Corner Auction... Did we all get shut out on this one, or are we just saving our funds for REA? <br /><br />Bad joke, I know <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Gene Palmer</b><p>I'll jump in here just to thank Leon for the "bottom of page" link. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>...and nice prices too! Some of my faves below. Have fun! March auction should be up shortly!<br /><br />Lot #8 Lou Gehrig Autographed/CERTIFIED Baseball. <br />"...The autograph grades a legible 6 overall and is ideal for display and fully certified "authentic" by expert examiner Christopher <br />Morales. Valued at over $25,000."<br />Sold for $3,611<br /><br />Lot #10 Mel Ott Autographed/Certified Baseball. <br />"...RARE signature grades a solid 6.5 overall. Perfect for display and valued at well over $15,000."<br />Sold for $2,315.<br /><br />Lot #12 Jimmie Foxx Autographed/Certified Baseball. <br />"...BEGS to be shown off proudly. Certified authentic by forensic expert Chris Morales and book value is well into the 5-figures."<br />Sold for $2,917.<br /><br />Lot #13 "The Beatles" band signed/custom framed "STAT" LP album!!! <br />"...all four "STAT" certified signatures rate clean 9's or better! This is a true collector's piece of history that will retail for as much as $10,000!!!"<br />Sold for $1,078.<br /><br />Lot #22 Babe Ruth Autographed/CERTIFIED Vintage H&B Baseball Bat!! <br />"...Super-rare gem and it shows off nicely and comes with a COA from former Secret Service forensic authenticator Christopher Morales. Scarcely-seen Ruth signature on a bat!"<br />Sold for $2,907.<br /><br />Lot #25 Jimmy Collins Autographed/Stat Authentic Certified Softball. <br />"...legible 5.5-6 overall and shows off nicely. Fully certified by STAT AUTHENTIC and valued into the 5 figures!!"<br />Sold for $1,079.<br /><br />#42 Josh Gibson hand signed/CERTIFIED vintage pair of baseball pants! <br />"...signed on the inside waistband by this seldom-seen HOFer in black ink. The signature is legible and grades a solid 6.5 overall! It comes with a COA from forensic expert Chris Morales and is a truly super item that's value is off the charts due to rarity!"<br />Sold for $390.<br /><br />Lot #155 Walter Johnson Autographed-Stat Authentic Certified Softball.<br />"...Great chance for a RARE & valuable ball at a discount & fully certified authentic by the experts at STAT."<br />Sold for $290.<br /><br />Lot #159 Lou Gehrig Yankees hand signed "Baseball". <br />"...rubberball...We'll start the bidding very low and let you decide how much it's worth."<br />Sold for $301.<br /><br />Lot #401 Cy Young hand signed vintage BB cap.<br />"...decent 5 or so. Neat display item from Cy Young and valued at ??"<br />Sold for $159.<br /><br />Lot #730 Candy Cummings Autographed Matted & Framed Stat Authentic Certified Photo-Display. <br />"...Fully certified "authentic' by the professionals at Stat Authentic and nice!"<br />Sold for $221.<br /><br />Lot #758 1934 TOUR OF JAPAN Autographed/Stat Authentic Certified Cut. <br />"...Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Connie Mack, J.Foxx, C.Gehringer, M.Berg,etc.!!!! The signatures grade legible 7's overall and this amazing piece of baseball memorabilia is ideal for matting/framing and comes with a COA from the hobby <br />experts at Stat Authentic for authenticity purposes. Valued at over $10,000 and NICE!"<br />Sold for $1,842.<br /><br />Lot #792 1894 Colts Baseball Club TEAM-SIGNED Cut with CAP ANSON-Certified <br />by Stat Authentic. <br />"...The Anson & Griffith signatures are authenticated & certified by STAT AUTHENTIC, while the others are so old there are no suitable exemplars out there! Valued into the thousands."<br />Sold for $610<br /><br />lot #795 George Wright Autographed Cut with Hall of Fame Exhibit Card! <br />"...LONG-DECEASED baseball hero. VERY RARE signature and it grades a 5.5 overall. Fully certified authentic by Stat Authentic and valued into the low thousands."<br />Sold for $300. <br /><br />Lot #827 Lou Gehrig Yankees hand signed "Stat Authentic" magazine photo-page. <br />".... It comes pre-certified as real by Stat Authentic and value is near $1800.00 I'll guess on the probable, one of a kind Yankee/Gehrig piece."<br />Sold for $250.<br /><br />Lot #893 "The Beatles" BAND-SIGNED/STAT AUTHENTIC CERTIFIED Album! <br />"...with Paul even including "all the best!" with his signature! Fully certified authentic by the pro's at STAT and valued into the thousands."<br />Sold for $735.<br /><br />lot #952 The "Beatles" hand signed/custom framed & CERTIFIED photo!! <br />"... certified as real by Jeff & Ted at Stat Authentic and is valued in the $3000.00 range as a solid rock n' roll investment and collectible."<br />Sold for $684.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>What a disgusting, insulting disgrace to our collecting fraternity. My friends who collect baseball, your stuff is now worthless. Why? These guys are flooding the market, day after day, with worthless frauds that sooner or later will dupe more and more innocents into buying them. As a result, the legitimate, authentic autographs, cards, relics, photos, pins, banners, etc, you've bought will be reduced to the same value as the worthless crap being peddled by crooked auctioneers and dealers - yes, just as worthless as the junk these guys are foisting on the public because the average guy simply won't know the difference. <br /><br />As long as everybody sits back and says: "Well..MY stuff is real, so I have nothing to worry about...", they WILL have something to worry about! Don't get too comfortable.<br /><br />Just today, some crook offered a good customer of mine several utterly worthless historic autographs that they swore would be passed by either Morales, STAT or some other so-called authenticator. They weren't baseball or rock autographs, but important historic Americana. And only NOW did this guy realize what a hazard his own collecting interest was facing. He told me: "I don't give a sh_t about rock, but when these guys start messing with historic autographs, we have a problem". I told him to "wake the f up". Get the picture?<br /><br />Baseball is ruined. Rock is well on its way, and only a slew of federal indictments can fix it (and they just might...). But the problem is swelling, it's a cancer and needs to be addressed immediately with every asset available, before it spreads wholesale to other fields of autographs, and...<br /><br />...cards...banners...pins...photos...relics...uni forms...coins...stamps...etc....etc...etc...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p><img src="http://www.myccsa.com/pics/177/76664.jpg"><br /><br />I'd really love an explanation from Mr. Morales about this item.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>CS Bolay</b><p>A modest little auction house in Philly stumbles upon a mysterious otherwordly portal, out of which flows a seemingly unlimited supply of Beatles multi-signed albums, presidential cuts, 19th-Century Hall of Famers and GEM 10 graded rookies. All are featured within the pages of the 'Voice for the Hobby' itself at miraculously low starting bids. <br /><br />Meanwhile, the Big Man at SCD spends his time blogging about his fascinating experiences with cockfighting.<br /><br /><a href="http://infielddirt.sportscollectorsdigest.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://infielddirt.sportscollectorsdigest.com/</a><br /><br /><br /><br />Can this hobby get any more insane?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>Bottom line is, MONEY RUINS EVERYTHING.<br /><br /> There's always gonna be certain people out there whose brains are wired toward fraud and cheating whenever they see there's MONEY to be made.<br /><br /> I believe historical forgeries are already a problem.<br /> CC offers them. I wonder how many Cosey Lincoln fakes are circulating that have been authenticated due to their age?<br /><br /> I wonder how many Marino Mantle fakes will be in circulation 40 years from now?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>While I usually check the Forum usually on a weekly basis, I'm sad to see this thread die and it seems like motivation to do something on a public level has died down a little. I am disappointed. I will say I do love those pantaloons!<br /><br />Money does ruin everything, but that's partially why we collect. The ordinary and worthless is often just that. We could collect new bottle caps. <br />But there are things that have implied value that certainly isn't the case and of course I must bring up the fact that unscathed, Coach's returns with basically the same inventory as last month. Multiples of high grade single signed baseballs of any Hall Of Famers you can mention. Foxx, Young, Ott, Ruth, Gehrig, a Comiskey Softball, a Honus Wagner with provenance proving it was signed (lol), a 1948 type written and signed Babe Ruth letter just before he passed, a Gehrig signed softball and multiple complete Beatles signed albums. And for our history dealer, all the early Presidents and multiple Einstein items that will keep you frustrated. Looking back at this thread, was this even a speed bump? Was anything accomplished? <br /><br />RS<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Check out the Next Coach's Corner auction. Item # 1. A signed Beatles album, signed by all 4 . But get this, it's on the cover of the famous "Butcher Cover" and comes with a "STAT" certificate. How can these people sleep at night ?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>To answer Bob's post I think a lot has been accomplished.<br />This thread has gotten a lot of publicity, links to it have been posted on other forums and I think that this thread has alerted many people about what is going on.<br />The press has gotten interested, the law has gotten interested and things will be happening. <br />The crap has gone on for too long and this has been a step towards stopping it. More will happen.<br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Once again, Rob Lifson shows why he is not only the premiere vintage baseball auction house, but he is a force in this hobby/business, and is willing to put his money where his mouth is.<br /><br />First, he is the only auction house to endorse the MEARS policy. Even though it is a little extreme, Rob knows he has nothing to worry about.<br /><br />Now, there is also a link to this thread on his web site, along with him mentioning authentication issues in an interview.<br /><br />Thanks Rob, for being a stand-up guy and helping this effort.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>don fluckinger</b><p>Fact-check: We have zero advertising on the standard catalog blog at <a href="http://standardcatalog.wordpress.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://standardcatalog.wordpress.com</a>. Oh wait, we have "buy the Standard Catalog" ads! <br /><br />Some of the links you can click in the blogroll do have advertising, but that's not an endorsement or lack of endorsement on the part of SCD, me, or the book publishing arm of F+W, who we all report to. I'm not a part of other blogs' advertising decisions, and I really don't want to be.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Don,<br />Matter of fact - SCD had ads for Coach's Corner on their site, whether it was linked from your blog or not. <br /><br />Bottom line is they appear to have removed them. Of course, their auction ads in the print world still appear. Nice compromise by the powers of be at Krause. If you get the hard copy you can still be ripped off by their biggest advertiser. <br /><br />It seems like they are starting to cut the cord. Now they need to let the albatross around their necks go completely. Mr. Mint may be unscrupulous in his pursuit of material, but at least he buys and sells genuine items.<br /><br />Don, you are obviously innocent in these decision by Krause. However, it was nice of you to respond to that comment about CC advertising on the SCD site after their ads were removed, 5 weeks after the comment was posted.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>xtremecollectibles.com. The latest? in Chris Morales supporters.<br /><br /><a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/642594539.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/642594539.html</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/642594539.html</a</a>><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/clt/642778657.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/clt/642778657.html</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/clt/642778657.html</a</a>><br /><br />And if, if you go to their auctions, it leads to the Coaches Corner web site.<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/christopher-l-morales.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/christopher-l-morales.html</a>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>CS Bolay</b><p>Interesting find, David...is this guy formally associated with CCSA or could he be one of the mysterious consigners of their 'miraculous' finds? <br /><br />Compare<br /><br /><a href="http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/mimaromayaha.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/mimaromayaha.html</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=89297" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=89297</a><br /><br />Fascinating...<br /><br />His presidential balls are among the worst forgeries I have ever seen...check out the last two rows<br /><br /><a href="http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/presidential.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/presidential.html</a><br />_________________________________<br /><br />~~Another forensic goofball for the record (apologize if he has been mentioned)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.aasportscollectibles.com/cobbball.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.aasportscollectibles.com/cobbball.htm</a><br /><a href="http://www.aasportscollectibles.com/mathewsonjohnsonphoto.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.aasportscollectibles.com/mathewsonjohnsonphoto.htm</a>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>David...<br /><br />Many thanks for uncovering yet another criminal outfit. Did you see on the Xtreme Collectibles Website, that the only "sold" item is that common 500 HR Hitters Lithograph (which was the only piece carrying a PSA Cert.)<br /><br />Everything else pictured on their site is so fake it's ridiculous. Check out that Clemente signed ball for a good laugh! <br /><br />Edited to say I took one more peek... The Cy Young and Mathewson Balls are even better.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>At least I am post 750!<br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>It appears if they now sell on ebay as well. I am a longtime packer collector/dealer and continue to see the numerous Favre, Don Hutson & Nitschke items that pass through their auctions. Here is their link:<br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/62m9h8" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/62m9h8</a>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Looks as though Ebay removed the questionable item. Between this and the "Florida Fakes" thread, it's good to see that they are doing some things right...
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I can't possibly read all of this, could someone sum this up for me briefly so I know who the bad guys are? thanks Dan.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>You should read it all. It took me almost an entire morning a few weeks back. It is full of hobby history and information you can't get in a short post. Even if you have traveled all over the country for shows, think you know a certain niche or signature, have met everyone you think possible....everyday there is new information I learn from someone else and it pieces things together.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Dan, I agree that the entire thread is worthy of being carefully read. But if time is an issue (for you and others here), here is a brief recap...<br /><br />Much of the thread concerns Coach's Corner (who has been auctioning bogus and highly questionable autographed pieces for years). Discussion has revolved around how they are able to keep doing this without being shut down, who is providing these consignments, and who is actually buying them.<br /><br />The other main culprits are Sports Collectors Digest (SCD) for enabling Coach's Corner all these years, and Christopher Morales (who is the head authenticator for Coach's Corner).<br /><br />Much anger has been directed to SCD for turning a blind eye, and accepting the ad revenue (despite the obvious fraud).<br /><br />Regarding Morales, most have questioned not only his abilities as an authenticator, but his self-proclaimed credentials (which have been scrutinized, and exposed as being highly enhanced).<br /><br />There is so much more... in the spirit of keeping it brief, those are some of the main points.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Pscolgrafs</b><p>Above is correct, this is a rather interesting thread with many fine turns and quite educational. Read thirty threads a day and you will get through it no time. I did that with Tolstoy's "War and Peace" and if I had skimmed to the end, I would have been disappointed (and lost) as I would not understand how it came to be that Moscow would be rebuilt and following the death of Elana, Pierre would live happily ever after with Natasha. <br /><br />The items on eBay that probably originated from Coach's (as there is no mention) have been removed, but what's interesting is deep in their feedback is a pocket of negatives where one seller sent some 6-8 items to Global and JSA and they failed them all. <br /><br />As far as the current auction goes, Morales authenticated Shoeless Joe Jackson baseball (currently at $800), John Wilkes Booth, Josh Gibson Single Signed, just about any 19th Century Baseball cut signature, Jimmie Foxx signed jersey and of course Sitting Bull and Geronimo. What amazes me is that this auction in Coach's far exceeds the quality merchandise in ANY of the catalogs weighing down my table at this moment. I mean Rob (Robert Edward) has a few incredibly rare Josh Gibson items (that famous signed postcard, a contract) but do they have a single signed baseball? <br /><br />How about pants? <br /><br />Kudos to Rob. A jawdropping auction.<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>I think the Mantle/Maris/Paige/Robinson signed, very clean white baseball that Coaches has now might be one of the top 15-20 signed pieces I have ever seen. The signatures are perfect, right on top of each other and the same pen, just amazing. The collector who put that ball together is probably hoping for a $20,000 return on all the time he spent traveling/writing to get it done. I hope the consigner speaks out if the ball doesn't realize a "fair" price. It is graded a 7.5 but my opinion, although not worth much as I never worked for the FBI or searched ancient tombs....would grade this a perfect 10.<br /><a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=85462" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=85462</a>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>Hmmmm, Lets see, Robinson died in 1972, Paige in 1982,Maris in 85 and the Mick in 95,.. yet the ball looks like it was signed at the same time with the same pen and is a bright white. Hmmmmmm. Yeah ok, no red flags here.lol<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>The simple fact they will openly bash JSA, PSA etc. and then allow those items into their auctions and put "JSA" in the title shows how little integrity they have as a company. If I had a problem with those companies and would send emails and post things on websites how they are not qualified, why would I allow their items in my auction? I want someone to explain that from Coaches Corner? If you have your own team of authenticating greats, why are you not using their services to verify the PSA, JSA items, which you have openly discussed as not being qualified to do that kind of work?<br /><br />My SCD subscription finally expired last week and I had my "new" sales rep call (seems like I get a new one every year) who had very little knowledge of the advertisers already in the magazine ask me to advertise this year...not gonna happen.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>There was an e mail going around earlier during this thread's popularity.<br />It named four names as being the big suppliers of CC.<br />I won't print them here as I have no proof and I don't know if the accusation is true.<br />If the accusation is true then one of the names would shock me and many others in the hobby for sure. The other three names were no surprise.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Fudd</b><p>I'm not sure if you guys caught this article? Apparently, many of you that have posted here were mentioned or added to the story so I thought I would post it for everyone to see.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2008/04/19/2008-04-19_beatles_authenticator_at_heart_of_memora.html?p age=0" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2008/04/19/2008-04-19_beatles_authenticator_at_heart_of_memora.html?p age=0</a><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>It looks like Morales himself has posted there. What other parasite would post in his defense?<br /><br />Also, why haven't we seen an outpouring of "forensic" authenticators? If this type of skill was needed, wouldn't every authentication company hire one? And what exactly is done "forensically" to determine if an autograph is real that PSA/DNA or JSA, or Richard Simon or Jodi Birkholm wouldn't do? I'm sure all of them know that even if a Babe Ruth signature looked perfect, with old fountain pen ink, but was signed on laser copier paper, that it's a fake. <br /><br />Where does the real forensic community stand on this issue? Afterall, it is one of their dearest members being vilified in a national newspaper. My bet is they don't care because 1) it's not an issue that comes up enough, and 2) Morales is so far down the forensic world food chain that Jeffery Deaver could probably discredit him in court in 3 seconds.<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>CS Bolay</b><p>There is at least one Forensic examiner who has tried to defend Morales; I suspect he has little knowledge of the CCSA situation however.<br /><br />From the Brill Report:<br /><br />"I read your article regarding Chris Morales and Don Frangipani. I find your contumelius attitude about him and other Forensic Documents Examiners to be quite offensive. I have known Mr. Frangipani and Mr. Morales for years and they have never been found unqualified by a court. Famous signatures are no different than anybody else's signatures. The methods of reviewing them are the same. No one is wrong 1100 times, the amount of times I am told Mr. (James) Spence has disagreed with Mr. Frangipani. It is more likely Mr. Spence may be mistaken in HIS opinions."<br /><br />Robert J. Phillips<br /><br />Forensic Document Examiner<br /><br /><a href="http://www.bobbrillreport.com/2008/04/20/index.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.bobbrillreport.com/2008/04/20/index.html</a> (bottom)<br /><br />Hogwash. And what of 'the Donald?' Didn't he say himself he was 'fooled.' The FBI has gobs of his COAs on file.<br /><br />~If anyone is desperately bored, there is a related thread on ebay collectibles board where msyelf and other boardies shared thoughts on the Morales issue...<br /><br /><a href="http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=1000649552&tstart=0&mod=12088 90948877" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=1000649552&tstart=0&mod=12088 90948877</a>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>All of this is a real eye opener to a lot of people.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>If Mr Phillips really did write that letter, he does not know how to spell<br />contumelius. If you are going to use those words, then people usually spell them properly. It is contumelious.<br />ps. There is a separate thread on Net54 about the Daily News story already.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>However that word is spelled, I have never heard of it before (and I have read enough to last me a lifetime). Way to pull out the Roget's in a feeble attempt to make yourself credible! Use the spell check next time!
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>An article in the New York times is a big deal. Someone knows someone and got the word out. That is what this forum was meant to do. Now that article will pop in google searches...which is how I found this site and reference. It is only a matter of time before someone is going down.<br /><br />On another note, I found the quote from Lee at CC that there are certainly more qualified people to do the work of Morales a very interesting one, truly they would rather fly under the radar then put these pieces in a major auction house.<br /><br />Perhaps CC knows that their time is up and in an attempt to get as much as they can before closing up they are throwing all of this stuff into the market just to see what they can get away with. That would be truly sad in my opinion.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>The Satchel Paige, Maris, Mantle & Jackie Robinson got a whopping $2100....I am sure the consigner is furious and wants a full explanation.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I'm sure that consignor is far from furious.<br /><br />I think it's a big deal (the article) if something good comes from this. But their last auction concluded last weekened (typical heavily discounted rarities) and their new auction is up today. <br /><br />They sold a Joe Jackson ball authenticated by Morales last month for $7777 and guess what? Another one this month! A really nice one this time! As well as a Beatles signed baseball, Marilyn Monroe signed baseball and ANOTHER Lou Gehrig signed jersey. <br /><br />DJ
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>What I really like about the new CC auction is there are very few Morales pieces. Now if we can go after STAT like we did Morales we might be able to get CC to hire a legitimate authenticator. Of course that will mean very few if any items will be for sale.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Brad L.</b><p>Whew! I got through about 50 posts or so and had to quit. This is a VERY interesting read here, and I will most definately finish reading all of the posts (probably next month, lol), and doing some research on all of the parties and books mentioned. <br /><br />One sad thing that results from this type of fraud (aside from the usual perception of an "uneducated buyer")is that the items that are sold, more than likely, keep recirculating by other crooks. Take one forged auto'd baseball as an example. Unless these scams get shut down, it really turns into much more than one sale. That same ball could generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in many sales over the course of it's journey through the hands of scam artists. <br /><br />I honestly find some of the things I've read (I am just learing of this "operation bullpen," and some of the current scam auction houses now) are just plain sickening. For someone to knowingly scam people out of money in any industry is intolerable in my opinion. It takes a real "tortured soul" to knowingly steal this potentially large amount of money from people. And to continue to do so as "business as usual" is disgusting to me.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Shelly, I disagree. This about the same amount as usual in regards to items authenticated by Morales. Usually 30-40 and when I pop in Morales, 30 items come up. Check out the 200 or so by Stat though!<br /><br />STAT: <a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Search.aspx?SearchText=STAT" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Search.aspx?SearchText=STAT</a><br /><br />I found some new favorites! Amelia Earhart and Charles Lindbergh signed baseball! James Dean signed baseball! A Softball signed by comedians like Buster Keaton and Abbott and Costello! Jesse Burkett signed straw hat! And of course all my favorite 19th century Baseball cuts like J.J McGinnity and Dan Brouthers. <br /><br />It's about several things, but if Morales (and STAT) can get passed the HBO Real Sports show, the pummeling here on the board (as well as other boards) and the NY Daily News...they truly are bullet proof and it's about new Government eyes and SCD doing something. <br /><br />I would give about anything to see their consignor list. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Sorry, you are correct. I guess we just have to keep on pushing SCD to stop the madness.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>STAT and Morales "flipping" on CCA, or vice versa when action is finally taken. <br /><br />To paraphrase B.I.G. "All the money they stacked was the money for bail".
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Of all the ideas floating around in this crazy atmosphere, the truth, for those with nothing to fear, is the easiest, most beautiful thing to fall in love with. Those with hidden agendas should seek shelter under the nearest rock that will have them.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I am perplexed by your cryptic message Jodi. <br /><br />Are there agendas here in place on this thread? <br /><br />DJ
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>I don't feel it's cryptic at all. No, the second part of the statement is not aimed at this thread, but rather anyone who carries the burdensome reputation of profiting through deception. The whole statement can be used as a guideline in how to conduct oneself, don't you think?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Josh Siegel</b><p>There is a stat authetic Mel Ott single signed ball on eBay right now, #130220658921 that appears to be the real deal. Do they get lucky every once and a while? Is this one of the rare items that is worth going after with a STAT COA?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's bogus. As are all the other balls the seller is trying to get rid of with the Stat COA's. I'm surprised Ebay hasn't pulled these, though it's only been about 12 hours.<br /><br />I wouldn't touch anything that is accompanied by a STAT COA. STAT = CRAP
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Eric's right... it's a fake, as are all 6 of his offerings. Granted, the Ott looks a bit closer than his McGraw, Cobb and Waner (which are all preposterous). I bet these balls all disappear from Ebay before the weekend.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Wanted to add that I have to be out all day, or I would write to Ebay about this bogus seller, and the fact that STAT is not an authorized authenticator.<br /><br />If anyone reading this thread has time today, to contact Ebay about these 6 forged balls, it will surely serve to clean things up and protect some less savvy bidders/collectors.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>They are all crap. Bet they get taken down.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p><a href="http://www.tedsilary.com/tedtaylor.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.tedsilary.com/tedtaylor.htm</a><br /><br />Read the part about net54. Taylor talks about the attacks on Morales, and how people on this small “hobby” internet blog makes him sick.<br /><br />If he wants to be made sick, he should look back at his failures at Scoreboard and Fleer, and how someone that has survived what he has been through can find it in his soul to justify ripping people off.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>STAT balls all gone.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>DD- that write up on Ted's site is so wrong it's not even funny. I imagine once his lawyers take a hard look at the legalities (Section 230 of Title 47 of the United States Code (47 USC § 230) he is saying he knows he will find out he is wrong. For the record I don't think there are any totally anonymous posts in this thread and if there are then they will be taken down. That is a forum rule. I have absolutely no worry about his rubbish talking with respect to my liabilities.....so please continue but make sure we put names by our posts. I do agree that folks should not be allowed to hide behind a screen name when making accusations....best regards<br /><br />edited as I said section 203 and it's 230
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>"court qualified" is a misleading phrase. When you try a case with a technical or scientific issue, or another matter of expertise that the ordinary Joe Citizen would not be expected to know, a party to the case can retain an expert to testify on that point. The experts are NOT neutrals and are NOT "tested" by the court. What they really are rhymes with "Moors"; they never see the inside of a court-room unless they are going to testify favorably for the party who hired them and you know that in advance from discovery. <br /><br />Now, when you actually go to court, you present your "Moor" and the other side has the right to cross-examine the "Moor" on his or her qualifications (called voir dire-ing the witness). If there are no objections at all, the "Moor" will be able to testify without challenge from the judge. If the "Moor" is questioned but appears to have the degrees, course work or whatever else that would lead one to believe he has some knowledge in the subject field, the judge will let him testify, regardless of whether he is the absolute worst expert in the world. Getting to testify is all it means when a "Moor" claims he was "qualified" as an expert in court. The judge doesn't test the "Moor" to see what he knows. It is up to the other side to cross-examine the "Moor" and prove to the judge and jury that the guy is a clown. I have no doubt that if an authenticator who was clobbered on TV tried to testify in court again, a knowledgeable cross-examining attorney would be able to bring in the authenticator's errors to impeach him but he would not be able to exclude the expert entirely on the sole grounds that he is really, really bad at his job. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>It's Moops!
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>David Davis</b><p>In the current CC auction, they have a Daniel Boone cut, Ben Franklin, another Dan Brouthers, and the most laughable Lajoie sig I have ever seen.<br /><br />However, on a positive note, I believe I will be sending my cut sigs of Adam and Eve, the aliens that crashed in Roswell, along with the person that modelled the Piltdown Man skull to STAT for their authentication. <br /><br />In addition, for the benefit of Mr. Taylor, this is my real name, even if it sounds made up.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Quoting David: "However, on a positive note, I believe I will be sending my cut sigs of Adam and Eve, the aliens that crashed in Roswell, along with the person that modelled the Piltdown Man skull to STAT for their authentication."<br /><br />Maybe we could group these together in a lot with my John the Baptist's shower curtains consignment. <br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Jodi - how come you get all the good items for sale?<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Divine intervention.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Boxingcardman - what do you know about legal court??
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Oh Mr. Taylor! Mr. Morales! Will you please sue me first?!? <br /><br />Didn't Mr. Morales' client, American Royal Arts, sue Frank Caiazzo? Looks like it blew up in their face (See NY Daily News article cited above)<br /><br />I'd wager that by the time this plays out, Frank will have a chateau in the Loire Valley.<br /><br />And let me add that I personally wouldn't turn your material over with a stick...<br /><br />Anyway, if you guys sue me, then I can counter-sue YOU for authenticating what I (and many others) believe is some of the worst material ever to come to market. As a matter of fact, I've never seen ANYTHING either of you has authenticated that I would ever offer in any of my auctions. If your material is indeed "bad", and if it was passed as result of incompetent authentication and gross negligence, despite warnings made to you to the contrary, and despite your implied warranty of merchantability, that may explain why the prices realized for that material are so weak. <br /><br />Continuing that thought, those weak prices, well documented in your auction sales results, would make a great claim for having:<br /><br />A/ DRIVEN POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS AWAY FROM THE INDUSTRY THAT SUPPORTS ME, AND;<br />B/ LOWERED THE PRICES THAT AUTHENTIC MATERIAL ACHIEVES IN THE MARKETPLACE.<br /><br />So, go ahead and sue me. Sue everyone. Get your books in order. Be prepared for a countersuit and discovery. Bring your checkbooks and a pen - because in the end, I can assure you that it will be YOU who shall be writing a settlement check. <br /><br />Or maybe you just just find another job...<br /><br />Yours philographically,<br /><br />BASIL A. "BILL" PANAGOPULOS (Get the spelling right, please)<br />PRESIDENT, ALEXANDER AUTOGRAPHS, INC.<br />860 CANAL ST, 2ND FL.<br />STAMFORD, CT 06902<br /><br />HOURS FOR SERVICE OF LEGAL PAPERS: 10AM-5PM EST
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Sorry guys - I've been absent, but every few weeks I post the following:<br /><br />Mr. Morales: Your website states, verbatim:<br /><br />QUOTE<br /><br />"An Open Challenge<br /><br />As noted herein, I will meet anyone in a public forum to review and assess my work efforts. Since private communications are often cherry picked to bolster a point of view, at times misdirecting the facts, it is my position that any meetings and communications be conduct in the open. If anyone desires to contact me concerning an open forum, please do not hesitate to call, email or otherwise contact me at anytime".<br /><br />UNQUOTE<br /><br /><br />Mr. Morales, I hereby challenge you to appear, before a group of your peers in the autograph authentication trade and the international press, to:<br /><br />a.) Discuss your "forensic" methods of authentication, and your education and qualifications, using exemplars or otherwise;<br /><br />b.) Describe in detail other criteria you used to authenticate the thousands of various autographs for which you have issued certificates;<br /><br />c.) explain your relationships, if any, with the various consignors, auction houses, galleries, etc. for whom you authenticate, and;<br /><br />d.) assess your work efforts, ie: how have your authentications been received in the autograph market, as a whole.<br /><br />If you wish to limit the discussion to your "work efforts" alone, I would expect your peers would still meet with you, depending on the agenda. <br /><br />I will pay your airfare and hotel room expenses for your attendance at such a forum in the New York area, for a meeting within the next 60 days. As stated above, I expect you would be asked to respond to inquiries from your peers, that is, knowledgeable, recognized dealers of the same material which you have authenticated. Should the location not be convenient for you, I'm sure we can arrange a meeting in Falls Church. Mr. Shelly Jaffe has already graciously agreed to attend, as has Mr. Frank Caiazzo. <br /><br />I assume that this email will reach you, since I do not have your emali address. If anyone posting to this site can confirm delivery to Mr. Morales, I would be much obliged.<br /><br />B. Panagopulos / Alexander Autographs, Inc.<br /><br />PS This message has also been sent directly to Mr. Morales several times...BP
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Priceless! I hope Taylor Ted covers this one!!!!
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>This actually offends me, not only as a Christian, but that they would use as their detail of how this was obtained.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=90816" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=90816</a>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Don't be too offended, Nick. It's not as if the story is true. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Nicely played Bill!<br /><br />That was a great read. Thank you.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Don't be offended by the Diana ball - my opinion it was signed by Sarah Schwartz of Bayonne and her manicurist, Diana Dingle of Union City. I think they might have been at the homeless shelter having gotten down on their luck...Worst Diana I've ever seen.<br /><br />PS Appreciate the compliments - it's just my job.
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