Scott,
I dont see what service Greg did except potentially cost John money who bought card legitly. Not picking a fight but what would you think if I (basis of argument only) go look for some posts on here or collectorsfocus of guys showing off some big cards and I find the before and afters costing them thousands. So next time every major auction has any of the cards up we can say if was screwed with. I have a problem with this and what Greg did during an auction. It does nobody any good except piss people off.

Also on the flip side I dont really believe the $75k. It was an arbitrary number and coming from a guy who made so many people leave hobby for good after the National. And if some people dont see that open your eyes.

I just don't understand one fundamental thing. I have collected baseball cards, comic books, prints and posters. What do they all have in common?

They are all made of paper.

Comic books, prints, and posters all make restoration a public matter, whether it's by a grading company or by the dealer. Are there omissions? Sure. But just look around and you'll see -- as others have already pointed out -- that original condition, with flaws intact -- commands higher prices than items that have been altered or restored.

Why can't we do the same for baseball cards? Is that too much ask for?

Again many people would agree with you that the card is legit. Those people would not be influenced by this thread or the information contained herein. The people who feel the card is not legit definitely would want to know, so I see it as no harm, no foul. You allowed the people who wanted the card because of the PSA grade to compete and greatly reduced the chance of a return from a buyer who was unhappy with the card due to the changes.

Without this thread if a buyer who DID mind the changes had won it and found out, it would have been a very likely candidate for a return, so which is worse a disappointing sale or a no sale? If you're arguing that the next buyer should've never found out, then you are back to pushing the problem onto the next guy until someone is left holding the bag. Should Greg have waited until the return period was over before making the post?

Now, ostensibly, the card is in the hands of someone who wants it with full knowledge of its history, and to me that's as it should be.

You said exactly what i was getting yet.

Plus for now on when we buy a card we can ask for a 30 day return in the event a prior sale of the same card comes to light that is 2 grades lower for example and if the seller refuses this then make an offer accordingly

Sorry guys but I just don't agree with you.

What I do agree with is that if an individual chooses to look for a card and find it was in a much lower holder than they should choose not to bid. However, making a big issue and getting a debate isn't the right way to go about it.

I think people will cause more problems then helping if they do this. But who am I.

#4
 

This thread just moved into #4 all time.


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Reminded me of this one: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174608




.

Here's the Nagurski before the faint check mark (top and center above the "T" in "STARS") on the back disappeared, followed by card scans as it looked in the PWCC sale.
Based on your recreated submission, is it fair to assume the submission came from PWCC, and PWCC doctored many of these beforehand?

PSA 4(MK): Heritage Auctions 05/14/2015 Sold for: $3,824.00
PSA 3.5: PWCC 10/18/2015 Sold for: $4616.00

Not 100% they're the same card. I also see what looks like writing in his armpit area of his left arm (our right) on the before.

Good catch, I did not see that writing. It appears on the after, also, possibly less so?

I don't think that's the same card, if it is the upper right corner got more rounded. Also the bottom border is smaller on the newer one, although it could be the slat is making it appear so.

I agree about the upper right corner being more rounded, but that could have been due to handling. The border difference is probably more from the scans being slightly different in size altogether. The focus is the same, multiple print marks are the same, the writing under the armpit is the same.

If it is the same card, the color suffered badly when it was worked on:

The dot in the right margin a quarter of the way up the right border looks the same, as does the centering. I think it's probably the same card, but the top right corner did get injured during the crack/erasure. The washed out color could just be a difference in scanner settings.

Addition: The cert number still checks out in the registry, so if it was cracked out, the flip wasn't sent back in for removal from the registry.

Lolol

Hold on, be right back, need more popcorn and a pit stop...

God, sick of popcorn. Need a beer and a shower.

Why in heaven or hell would you buy a graded card after reading this?

You know why.

Just so I don't have dig through 50 something pages. Is there real truth the fact offered that Brent encouraged a member to bid without the intention of winning. I'm a Brent supporter and have been defending him elsewhere, but that would make me look like quite the clown.

Attachment 262612

You may wanna read through the 50 something pages...

Start with post #412.

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

Now that is just funked up! Where money is to be made you will always have corrupt people. Insane...unless I'm reading this wrong? Brent is telling the guy to bid on an auction? :eek:

That is the most ironic part of all of this, PWCC asked the guy to do a shill bid so that his other bids wouldn't appear to be shill bids. He was told to temporarily become the high bidder but PWCC assured him that it would be eventually overtaken by a higher bid.

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

And there is a chance a lot of this is being taken out of context. It happens and has happened to me. It's not fun. Just because someone says you won't be the high bidder actually means very little to me. I have put in bids on 500k cards at very first with a 50k bid. I was the temporary high bidder but I wasn't going to win, maybe the same here? I can't hardly read all of the texts as they are too small....and Brent gave a reason too, but let's not try to look at both sides. Let's just look at the jackass's side.

I do think we would also be at more risk buying altered cards if everything was 'raw' . So many disputes as to what is Mint and Near Mint as well that do not exist now with the graded cards. Basically we would have 4000 Battlefield type sellers out there with high number of returns and negative feedback. Yes the great sellers with great reputation shoudl do well but thats how it is now as time goes on.

Just too many bad situations with no third party graders for anyone to think the third party grading will go away

As Leons stated there may be other reasons. However, this can also be inferred that if he 'won' the card he wouldnt have to pay for it because he was assured that he wouldnt win the card. Thus, there would be no way he could of been sued for payment when he has a text like that.

Lol
 

No one is going to walk into a court room with that as a defense. I am pretty sure it is incriminating.

Interesting read, and many varying opinions as well. Seems there might be a spin off thread in the making.

DCMeale

Yes, this is Cortney DeLorme, the one that started this spiral around page 30 or so. I provided a screenshot showing Brent asking me to bid on the card and assuring me that I would be outbid. On that auction, I think the account that I used was the one you guys will refer to as S***N.

A lot of people think this is a one time deal. When the dust settles on this, more is to come. Anyone supporting Brent, will absolutely look foolish. I'm not saying that they are less intelligent than anyone else, but in light of the new evidence that has been shown and what all else I have, he has no defense.

Have you noticed that Betsy has called me out on many occasion about a "very large unpaid debt" and that I've refuted it with screenshots and timestamps asking for an invoice prior to her post...............and, now she won't address it at all.

Then, to make it even more fun, she originally said I was blocked b/c of the debt, but when that was refuted, changed it to "Cortney DeLorme is the first person in the history of PWCC to be blocked as a person and not as a bidder". Every time I shoot em down, they reload and try to stick a dagger in me somewhere else. They'll eventually learn, I have 5 years of this stuff and I have no problem implicating whoever needs implicating to make my point.................and, again, my point is NOT that I lost 30K on the card when I sold it via Ken. It is the fact that Brent was my best friend (or so I thought), I was high biggest consignor with no close second, I trusted him wo reservation, he knew I wouldn't check behind what he told me..................and he used that against me to unload a card that he knew I'd have had no interest in had I known it's history.

Back to your original question, yes, there is proof of shill bidding requests by brent. Another quick screenshot can quickly alleviate that question.

Another question that keeps getting brought up is bid retractions. That account has 10 in the last 6 months (0 in last 30)...............when all of them were over a year ago . And of those 10 retractions, 9 were on ONE AUCTION where I had to manually retract each bid that i placed (t206 plank......therefor getting more retractions) to back out of the auction b/c of other shill bidding. So, Im absolutely positive that the "6 month" retraction goes away over MUCH LONGER time frame. I have another account that I use maybe once a month and haven't retracted since 2/16 but yet all of them are still there.

Cortney

Anger provokes responses. Those responses can sometimes be damaging to ones credibility and insulting to others. I have no intention of doing any of those to anyone or any business...........except to those who INTENTINALLY lie to me and steal from me. My previous comments about SGC and a "$20 Card Collector" (which from what I hear is the name of a new forum page) was directed at ONE PERSON for being an argumentative prick with no substantive argument............not people that collect cards in a range less than, say, $10K. The posts were unacceptable, and I sincerely apologize. SGC has graded with the toughest of them and aggravated the crap out of me on one particular instance..............but, garnered great respect from it. For example, I had 9 PSA 8 '57 Unitas 8's that I took to a show and wanted to have ONE crossed over to an SGC 8.5 or 9. I spent over 3K on crossovers for them to tell me that only 3 of those 8's even fit their 8 requirements. So, my respect of their grading techniques grew tremendously. However, the reason I don't buy SGC is b/c of their lack of qualifiers. When I buy a card, if it's been trimmed, altered, etc., (ahem.......cue, BRENT) I want to know so that I can STAY AWAY (AGAIN, CUE BRENT) from it. I don't buy that stuff. That's just my personal preference. The same goes for BVG. I prefer PSA b/c of their qualifiers. Are they perfect, no. Are any of us, absolutely not. But, PSA, in my humble opinion have garnered the respect of the hobby and hold the most stable prices of any of the companies. That's MY OPINION, nothing more; so please don't attack me over that. This post is simply an apology for those 2 comments that I made out of frustration and to otherwise defend SGC and their business practices, which I made a fool of myself earlier in the thread for saying the things that I did.

And quite a few of you brought it to my attn. ;-)

Please post the entire conversation history.

Just spent an hour reading these posts. I have discovered one thing, there are a lot of hostile people out there. Stick to the subject instead of bullying one another. People seem to have a lot of guts when they are behind a keyboard in the safety of their homes.

Had to post since I wanted to reach my 800th post.

The way I read your last post Cortney, is that you believe SGC will holder a known trimmed/altered card with a number grade instead of Authentic. I am not sure that is the case. PSA will not either, since there are no qualifiers for trimmed or skinned or recolored. Those are Authentic - Altered at PSA as well. Yes, a card with writing on it could be a PSA 8(MK) or an SGC 1.5, and those are drastically different things. But if SGC is grading trimmed cards with a number and you have proof of that, that would hurt them as well.

I don't have anything on SGC other than respect for their grading practices. I don't own SGC holders, but again, that's just personal preference. I guess I'm one of the ones that people on here like to call the "PSA Sheeple". SGC is extremely hard on some things. As for their q's, I just know that it's either A or a #. I'm not an SGC expert by any stretch of the imagination, so I may have been off base on that one. If so, please forgive me.

Peter,

Most high end collectors aren't indifferent to that (or at least experienced ones). As a rookie, like everyone else, I bought the holder as opposed to the card. As I became educated, I started ignoring grades and buying the card. Granted, I may have wanted a PSA 8 52 Mantle, and could have gotten a 7 that looked like an 8, but sometimes, you just want the grade b/c it grows in value faster. But, in that situation, I (personally) wait until the "right" 8 comes along.

Just last week I had a VERY good friend come to me for advice on a particular card in the 30K range. It was an attrocious 8.5 and one I'd cringe at everytime I pulled it out to look at it if I owned it. That being said, I talked him into waiting for a 9 to come along (for a multitude of reasons but mainly b/c of how bad the 8.5 was and the difference in 8.5 to 9 in terms of long term value/investment on vintage). And, also to make sure he does the same thing with a 9.............get one with great eye appeal.

Don't lump all high end collectors into the same pool. Some of us started out with the right idea but it took being seasoned or burned due to value to realize that all "8's" are not created equal.

Thanks for the clarification.

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

Excellent clarification. It seems that the ones that you may be referring to are akin to or either the "new money" that came into the hobby during the recent booms and started buying up everything from the bottom to top end of every grade. If it had value, it didn't seem that they cared what it looked like. There were several auctions that I saw "go" and when the final hammer dropped, I was like "Why?!?!?!". LOL.

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

I thought everyone knew that. When you buy an old cracker jack card with no staining etc and its in a PSA 7 holder, you assume something happened to it previously. Dont you? I prefer not to see that same card in a prior sale as a PSA 4 but the risk is there i would think

I think Cortney and Brent had a very good friendship which benefited both of them for many years. Sorry, it has gone south as hate and love both use the same part of the brain.

Cortney, I have never met you, or spoke to you. All I can go off from are your postings on this one thread. I like hearing the perspective from a buyer of high money cards in "PSA" holders where you seem to buy and sell these cards like commodities. my hunch isyourreally good at what you do and it's rare you have a bad deal. You remind me of one of the Hunt brothers back in the late 70s/80s.
Upon the rare impulse I have to buy a 25k card or higher in a PSA holder, rest assured I will attempt to win it as a snipe or a late night bid. My suspicions were dead on, that some people like to buy these cards like Apple shares.

PWCC I have always supported with positive post in recent years. Sorry you had a relationship go south from a large consignor. However, everything happens for a reason and I'm sure other future consigners will pick up the slack on the consignment front. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I think PWCC runs a professional operation and I'm very impressed with their market dominance in Ebay. I have spoke to Brent before both on the phone and in person at the National. It's safe to say I like him and support him and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Betsy has returned emails to me when I was in communication with them and she was very professional and courteous as well. I won 8 cards from them two weeks ago and I won a card from them 2 days ago so needless to say I will still be a customer of theirs.


I think at this point this thread has become a soapbox thread with Cortney and his way of outing Brent for how he feels. As much as I like reality TV, maybe a new thread should start on that theme.

Leon,

I think we both know this isn't completely true. There have been dozens of important finds of high-grade cards, both pre-war and post-war in the last 30 years. Some of them have been publicized on this very forum. I have personally seen a large quantity of these high-grade cards when they were first discovered--everything from T206s, Sport Kings and Diamond Stars taken from unopened packs to perfect condition 1933 Goudeys. And we all know of the 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack factory sets that have been found and graded as well as large accumulations of candy/caramel cards such as those which constituted the "Black Swamp" find. There have also been many collections, like that of Lionel Carter or the discoveries of Alan Rosen, that have brought thousands more original, high-grade cards into the marketplace.

SGC will grade altered cards with numeric grades. I owned this Flick and it was clearly trimmed.... (as mentioned by REA)

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...e?itemid=41097

The concept and idea of grading is a good one, what it has become is ludicrous in my opinion. The price differences people will pay between grades when the entire system is severely flawed is absurd.

+1

Michael beat me to it....

Jeff,

First, Cortney was arguing that he collects PSA because SGC doesn't use qualifiers, not because SGC grades altered cards. Second, the example you give is a statistical outlier. To the best of my knowledge, there were some issued 1908 PC770s that have normal postcard cuts and some that were unissued and have somewhat haphazard hand cuts--they would be similar in nature to Wheaties or Post Cereal cards cut off of boxes. Certainly, these types of cuts were not meant to be deceptive or to artificially improve the condition of the postcard in question.

Regarding Michael's comment to Leon, of course there have been great finds. I am sure Leon did not mean to imply, and I certainly did not, that every high grade card has been worked on. But to my mind none of that changes that card doctoring is rampant in this hobby.

That is what I meant....and the hobby source I quoted is always a bit gloomier than I am. :)

Oh sorry, to be honest I didn't read any of his other posts. :D

The Flick was in an Authentic holder before. If SGC was aware that some may have been issued that way (which has not been proven by the way as I have seen untrimmed ALPCs with the overprint and schedule back), they should at least be consistent.

I'm sure there were plenty of pristine cards found in the 60's and 70's but news of these didn't travel like it does now. We didn't have the internet to make sure news of these finds travels around the world within a day or so.
James

Has PWCC's customer service or quality of consignments been questioned? I do not feel like reading this whole thing

correct, my point exactly, thus he is ensured that he would never owe anything when he got that text in this version of the explanation of the text. (doesnt matter how or if PWCC knew there would be a higher bid or not)

Not that I have read. I'm just posting my opinion and putting a lighter tone on it.

As long as you have stuff, you might as well be made of

Jake, I doubt many buyers make that assumption. Do you think the person who bought the new and improved Nagurski assumed it had been worked on, for example? To be clear the last several posts have been about the high end, but it goes on at any level where there is money to be made.

indeed

Altering
 

Altering is more often than not on high dollar as opposed to just high grade items. Anything where even a grade bump means good profits (though the doctors seem to shoot for 2 or more). Set up at some shows you would be amazed how often your nice cards with a "fixable flaw" get bought by the same individuals. It is not really all that hidden. That said there are plenty of high grade cards not messed with.

I do agree with you. The grading companies do help reduce the risk of getting an altered card. Just way too much faith is put into the "flip" on high end cards.

Great points Peter.

I admire you coming forward with this information. After reading that text message (just save the picture and you can enlarge the text) and what you said in the above statement, how can anyone have any faith you aren't being shilled when go after a card by PWCC?! I'm just scratching my head...

On another note, I really enjoy these forums, lots of great information and people. I'm not here to argue with anyone as most people have good points. I just believe in having integrity and it doesn't seem like PWCC has any. I always sensed some corruption.

Again, these forums are great for collectors discussing sports cards, lots of amazing information both good and bad.

It's kinda common sense when you have bidders with tons of bid retractions along with high percentages of bids with only PWCC that rampant shilling is taking place. But let's face it, bidders will keep bidding to get access to quality material and consigners will keep consigning to get top dollar.

I would hope that those that participate in PWCC auctions go in with a budgetary plan and a good sniping software.

As for the DiMaggio, If you have knowledge that a card has been fixed up to the degree that this one was you should include that information to your buyers even if you think some of them won't care about its history and it will hurt short term profits. Protecting your reputation is by far worth more in the long term.

Good point
 

That is a great point AJ but we unfortunately live in a world where short term financial game too often supersedes long term reputation. Quick buck versus respect.

Seems like this thread is finally run its course, until Cortney posts more of the conversation, or preferably all of it.

Removed

Hmm. The thread was just about to go off the front page and we still do not have the entire conversation that Cortney was hoping to give us.

I agree with A.J. Those that keep bidding on lots along with bidders who have tons of bid retractions or have hardly any feedback get what they deserve. As long as you're willing to overpay for something that a month later you can likely get cheaper, enjoy! I guess stuff does trump all ... including your hard earned $$$$.

For the rest of us, we will wait for these inflated prices to fall and buy something for what its really worth.

jeff

right, perhaps he has been in talks with someone and has agreed not to show anything else. Someone that said has years of texts to only show 2 or 3 snippets really does not give fair context. Plus he kept saying he would show them and at the same time keeps saying that everything he says is the truth

it looks like a "lovers spat" to me...which I'm guessing will disappear under the rug in typical fashion.

Of course it will and we will have a PWCC pick up thread in the near future.

Stuff trumps everything for most people. Just look at Goldin, everybody swore they would never buy from them again after the Mastro shill list. Then he had a lawyer send members letter because they were calling out very suspicious auctions. Now he is a advertiser on this site and people are posting pick up threads and complaining about not being able to bid in their auctions. No wonder the scammers love this hobby.:eek:

I have never bid on Goldin and never will. Gotta draw the line somewhere and they are below it. I just chuck the catalog in the trash when I get it. No sense even being tempted.

Same thing I did with Legendary.

Take a stand, people.

jeff

+1

Will NEVER bid with Goldin
 

+2

I whole-heartedly believe in the concept of "taking a stand" against companies with sketchy reputations, but proclaiming that you won't bid in their auctions isn't the way to do it. If even 100 dudes on the board "agreed" not to bid with a certain company, then game theory suggests another 100 dudes now have more incentive to "cheat" and bid because of the perceived opportunity for better prices. The net effect could be positive for the AH.

By contrast, I've decided that there are a few AH's to whom I will never consign material because of their reputation. Now if a 100 dudes started a movement to not consign to a certain company, that could actually have a material impact. Demand will always be there, but supply can be cut off.

I will never consign to PWCC or Probestein. The reality of the matter is, that they do not reach extra bidders. Their price fluctuations(they get low prices, average and higher prices) are all depending on who is bidding on a certain card at a certain time.

For instance. They had a card go to auction....a nice one. A big multi thousand dollar Cobb. Well centered. 40 days later the same Cobb sold again. Exact same Cobb, same serial number and everything. It went for only slightly more dollars and not one bidder on the second go around was the same person as the first time.

I have seen nice looking tough backs, like American Beauty 350 and 460 cards sell for 40 dollars and less even, I have seen readily available high grade hall of famers go for Buzz Aldrin prices....but what I have never seen is someone bid on a card in their auction past what the price of a BIN is for the same card listed on Ebay.

It is easy to say they bring high prices on certain items, but never higher than other cards in the same market they are selling them in(Ebay).

Sure. Sometimes they do, but often times I believe there is just a random factor beneath that fact(tax returns, timing of collectors availability to bid, family problems, vacations etc).

This post above was 3 days ago. This thread has run it's course, imo, and it doesn't look like ole financier Courtney is coming back. If there is any luck he won't have a choice in answering some questions in the future. But this thread is not on the original topic anymore. Courtney, or anyone, can start another one if they want to. Personally, I have bid with both Goldin and PWCC recently (and consigned) and will continue. IF others don't that is always their prerogative. Of course they both advertise here but I don't think either one is doing anything wrong in today's environment. I think both have made mistakes in the past, as we all have, and probably regret them just like we do when we make them. Those companies, and all companies and people, will be just as open to scrutiny in the future as they are now. Happy collecting.