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-   -   the list (of criminals) is revealed (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217245)

JimStinson 02-03-2016 03:14 PM
JimStinson
 
1 Attachment(s)
Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them....Santayana

whiteymet 02-03-2016 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batsballsbases (Post 1499632)
Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....
Al:

Please help me understand why it is so important for you to know if Peter gave Ron his acct info and password and Ron bid from his own computer.

Is there a difference I am missing?

Fred McK.ie

batsballsbases 02-03-2016 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteymet (Post 1499733)
Al:

Please help me understand why it is so important for you to know if Peter gave Ron his acct info and password and Ron bid from his own computer.

Is there a difference I am missing?

Fred McK.ie
Fred,
As I posted he states one thing and then Ron states another. Just wanted the real truth but as I see that isnt going to happen. Fred Im done asking let others carry the torch. If not then you ask him why he wont answer my simple question. But as Leon pointed out the question was asked and answered in a round about way. I believe the word was semantics.(Did I spell that right for you rob) So I will leave it with that.

slidekellyslide 02-03-2016 04:13 PM
Al, it seems pretty clear to me that he took the blame for making the shill bid, then Ron said he made the bid with Peter's account and Peter admitted this is how it went down, but he didn't want to throw Ron under the bus.

From the looks of it this appears to be one guy who wanted his investment protected, suckered a friend into using his account to do so (still bad, still shilling).

Now there are a bunch of guys on that list with MULTIPLE acts of shilling, one of them a major auction house owner who obviously is reading this thread and giving information about people posting here, but is too much of coward to come on here and explain himself.

1952boyntoncollector 02-03-2016 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Hawk (Post 1499662)
While my name holds zero gravitas - at least on this board, my kids think I'm a god..:p, can I ask this?

Daniel Enright

I'm surprised the events we are discussing are murky at all for you, and I understand the 9 years part. You were asked to participate in an illegal and surely uncomfortable for-you situation, one you didn't repeat, and from my reading of your posts over the years, its an act that wouldn't have sat right. Generally I feel your call on this board is for the greater good, the moral and ethical right to win out.
So such an even should have seared itself into you mind.
I'm 47, and at age 15 stole a Penthouse magazine from a store, getting caught on the way out. I can see it all very easily right now, my school uniform, which side of my jacket I put the magazine behind, the point at which the owner called for me to stop as I sidled out the door. I had to go to the police station, have my mum pick me up.....I never stole a thing again in my life.
I can't un-remember it.

The part of your story, and what happens to all stories if they contain any innacuracies, is as you tell them over and over aspects that don't jive start to stand out.

Originally you described the action as a single bid, meant to act as a minimum amount your friend Ron would accept. I think you allowed the number of bids, and how you framed it in your mind as a minimum, to mitigate the whole sordid action to yourself. Ron was simply protecting himself from being ripped off by a low offer.

You just now said in your last post, you are unsure of how many bids were placed?
You can see how that would change everything, from setting a minimum to an active effort to shill up another bidder.
I also have a feeling you would have followed the auction more than just casually, to know how it turned out and because it was a moral car crash - it would have been hard to avert your eyes.

Is there a chance you more accurately remember how the item was bid on, on reflection?
Did you talk to Ron afterwards, tell him how uncomfortable it made you feel, that it was once off?
Knowing AH rules of the time and now, I would also think this memory would have followed you for years, especially as a lawyer and knowing what could happed to your life's work if you were found to have acted illegally......

I realize it's easier to talk in modified short responses as you have so far, and I actually am with you in what you've said so far about at least fronting the pitchforks while others pathetically hide their involvement.
But it would be helpful to believe you as a fellow human being, if you took a few more words to tell the story so far untold.
About what the act meant to you then and now, and whether you are really so equivocal in judging it today?
You knew it was wrong then, otherwise you would have asked the AH to simply advertise what was being done and be transparent about it......so why so gray today?
that's actually a really good post...I remember being the get away driver when my 'friend' stole some things from 7-11, I was 16 and when he came to my car the worker from 7-11 was running after him and I drove him away to safety...its not like I was the guy from person of interest to save him....but the 7-11 guy did hit the hood of my chevy nova before I was able to move my car out of his grasp.....i didn't know he was going to the store to steal something but i had a good idea he must of stolen something when the 7-11 guy was running after him outside the store to my car..

on another note I do think I did steal a few wax packs from 7-11, maybe 1988 topps when I was a minor..not sure if it was one or two packs..i not get caught but I feel worse being the get away driver in that other participation of theft....and while I am confessing my sins, I believe the last thing i ever remember stealing was a 'switch-blade' plastic comb and key chain license plate with my name on it that I stole at the gift store in the Twin towers in new York city...

in the years since i have contributed a lot more money to charity that the gross value of the switch blade plastic comb, the key chain license plate, 2 1988 topps wax packs and the slurpee and/or candy my 'friend' took....

batsballsbases 02-03-2016 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1499744)
Al, it seems pretty clear to me that he took the blame for making the shill bid, then Ron said he made the bid with Peter's account and Peter admitted this is how it went down, but he didn't want to throw Ron under the bus.

From the looks of it this appears to be one guy who wanted his investment protected, suckered a friend into using his account to do so (still bad, still shilling).

Now there are a bunch of guys on that list with MULTIPLE acts of shilling, one of them a major auction house owner who obviously is reading this thread and giving information about people posting here, but is too much of coward to come on here and explain himself.
Dan,
You are absolutely right, there are many others and for that matter I have dealt with and probably been shilled by many of them. Since names were named Andy Imperato a major player with Grey Flannel collectibles, went on his own and has his own auction house. Seems like Jerry Zuckerman was his(Alleged) personal shill in many of his auctions. Then you have Joe Esposito a person who has been called "One of the good guys" and has been talked about in an archive thread 10 years ago as having his auctions shilled (alleged). Big ebay presence I believe B+E collectibles. etc etc. But as for Peter and I am done with him and talking about him, he can live with himself and do what ever he pleases. Im just glad thru PMs from many people that I was not alone in my thoughts about the subject....

Duluth Eskimo 02-03-2016 05:12 PM
I don't want to fuel the fire as I appreciate the fact that Peter came forward early on and admitted fault and described the situation. For those that were not in the hobby then, although I did not participate in this action and have only auctioned one item through an AH, I can tell you this was very common during that era and today. Everyone wanted that BIG money, but no one wanted to sell their item without a reserve. Not that I agree with it, just a fact.

The one thing I think Al is referring to is that the change in the story smells a little. As someone who hears a lot of stories in my career, it sounded like this to me also.

My immediate thought was, why change the story? To me, it reads like you are deflecting the crime. As an attorney you take an oath, and an action you initially described could land an attorney in front of an ethics board or be sanctioned.

In the land of baseball cards and memorabilia, it's no big deal and just wording. Although, in the real world the consequences could be very great. I may be mistaken and could be off course, but either way it's your explanation.

Others mentioned as I did in an earlier post, this was only two years of disclosed records from one auction house. If you think that list was long, the truth in the hobby would probably scare the hell out of the common collector. Most "veterans" assumed this was the case in most of these "big" auctions.

What Peter is "admitting" doing or participating in is the equivalent of speeding at the Indy 500. I haven't seen anyone even attempting to clear their name from these incidents when they would normally be on the board answering a question within the hour. Although, it's hard to explain the unexplainable.

slidekellyslide 02-03-2016 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo (Post 1499767)
What Peter is "admitting" doing or participating in is the equivalent of speeding at the Indy 500. I haven't seen anyone even attempting to clear their name from these incidents when they would normally be on the board answering a question within the hour. Although, it's hard to explain the unexplainable.
Exactly. Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.

And let's not fool ourselves, every one of those SOB's on the wrong side of the list who isn't already in prison is following this thread very closely.

batsballsbases 02-03-2016 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1499769)
Exactly. Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.

And let's not fool ourselves, every one of those SOB's on the wrong side of the list who isn't already in prison is following this thread very closely.
Dan,
Glad I wasnt the only one who named REAL names!!! And yes Peter if they come on and explain themselves I will also ask questions and be the same SOB I was to you...

David Atkatz 02-03-2016 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1497944)
When I see one of those "Let's share an auction lot" posts on Net54 I feel like that also falls under collusion.
I don't agree, Dan. If I only want part of a lot, I'm going to bid knowing that finding a buyer for what I don't want may take some time, and that I may not get near what I need. But if I know beforehand that, effectively, I've got those pieces sold, I most likely will feel free to bid a bit higher. (And that goes for my "partners." Their knowing that they are getting what they want, with the other pieces pre-sold, as it were, enables them to go higher for their particular bit.)

Rickyy 02-03-2016 05:39 PM
[QUOTE=Kenny Cole;1497580]I have tried to stay out thus far. I am now unsuccessful. I am not on either list simply because I didn't' win one of those auctions. I was probably one of those legitimate bidders who bid Ryan up at the same time the auction house or consignor/friend was doing that. We have similar interests. Even by losing, I screwed my friend.

I get all the stuff about altering the price point of the PSA 8 card and whatnot. Blah, blah, blah. Its wonderful to have the best card ever and I am certain that getting that 8.5 so you can drop that ratty 8 is exhilarating. Its just the shits when you find out you paid substantially more than you would have had things been honest. Yawn.

But to me, it is much more basic. Ryan won a lot we probably both bid on. It cost him more than it should have, because neither one of us knew we were both being cheated to begin with. I probably beat him on one of the other auctions that have no bidding records that was also shilled.

QUOTE]

+1 on that... it's just plain wrong to bid on something for reasons other than because you want that item...by someone coming in with nefarious intentions ends up screwing us all...

Ricky Yoneda

batsballsbases 02-03-2016 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1499775)
I don't agree, Dan. If I only want part of a lot, I'm going to bid knowing that finding a buyer for what I don't want may take some time, and that I may not get near what I need. But if I know beforehand that, effectively, I've got those pieces sold, I most likely will feel free to bid a bit higher. (And that goes for my "partners." Their knowing that they are getting what they want, with the other pieces pre-sold, as it were, enables them to go higher for their particular bit.)
David,
I also dont fell that it falls under collusion. But I always said to myself when someone would post up and say hay lets partner up on this lot. And as we know many AHs look at net 54 all the time and I always said to myself wow what a wonderful way to shill up a lot that you already know has a group of buyers if one wanted to if you get what I mean!!!!!

Exhibitman 02-03-2016 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman
Your posts ARE confusing; don't sell yourself short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector (Post 1499645)
ah and your posts really add value and people thank you for their posts...I guess my last post wasn't confusing for you to comment..

I know I will be confused if you actually post something that people in the hobby would value when commenting to me.


and no. posts about .fake 1952 Topps Mantle and Wagners on ebay do not count if you go there...
.
You have no sense of humor...

Rickyy 02-03-2016 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon (Post 1498329)
I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.
Or Pyongyang....

Ricky Yoneda

slidekellyslide 02-03-2016 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1499775)
I don't agree, Dan. If I only want part of a lot, I'm going to bid knowing that finding a buyer for what I don't want may take some time, and that I may not get near what I need. But if I know beforehand that, effectively, I've got those pieces sold, I most likely will feel free to bid a bit higher. (And that goes for my "partners." Their knowing that they are getting what they want, with the other pieces pre-sold, as it were, enables them to go higher for their particular bit.)
There was a thread on here early last year which was started by the same Net54 member who started this thread in which he and another bidder agreed to partner up on a lot of rare Topps Hocus Focus cards. The lot sold for $10,000 and there was poor communication between the two partners and the division of the lot did not happen right away. This of course angered the guy who sat out of the bidding and he stated that he would have gone $20,000 on the lot. It all worked out in the end as one guy went on an extended vacation. But the point of all of this is that those two guys getting together on that lot clearly worked in their favor to keep the price down.

Does it always work that way? No, and I have no statistics to show which outcome is more prevalent. I understand why people do it on lots though, it has to be frustrating to see the one card you've been pining for in a lot of stuff that you don't want or need.

ElCabron 02-03-2016 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1499769)
Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.
JC deserves his own thread here, considering he was an active member for so many years. Please explain yourself, JC. Some of the people you cheated out of their money are board members. Do you still consider yourself a member of net54? (He is definitely reading this thread, btw)

More importantly, a lot of these scumbags are still in business today. Who would still do business with Ken Goldin or Kevin Keating? Lots of you. That's why none of these guys will get any consequences for any of their fraudulent activities, other than getting rich.

There are a lot of misunderstandings and incorrect beliefs about the list. Maybe we can clear some of that up at some point. I think it would really help people get a better understanding about all of this and stop pushing for it to be swept under the rug like it's no big deal.

-Ryan

Runscott 02-03-2016 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1499802)
There was a thread on here early last year which was started by the same Net54 member who started this thread in which he and another bidder agreed to partner up on a lot of rare Topps Hocus Focus cards. The lot sold for $10,000 and there was poor communication between the two partners and the division of the lot did not happen right away. This of course angered the guy who sat out of the bidding and he stated that he would have gone $20,000 on the lot. It all worked out in the end as one guy went on an extended vacation. But the point of all of this is that those two guys getting together on that lot clearly worked in their favor to keep the price down.

Does it always work that way? No, and I have no statistics to show which outcome is more prevalent. I understand why people do it on lots though, it has to be frustrating to see the one card you've been pining for in a lot of stuff that you don't want or need.
At least they have located the card they need. Splitting a lot at the lowest price possible, through collusion, allows them each to get the one or two cards they want, plus make a larger profit when they re-sell the rest of the lot, than if they had simply bid on it fairly. The only one who loses is the consignor.

bnorth 02-03-2016 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott (Post 1499815)
At least they have located the card they need. Splitting a lot at the lowest price possible, through collusion, allows them each to get the one or two cards they want, plus make a larger profit when they re-sell the rest of the lot, than if they had simply bid on it fairly. The only one who loses is the consignor.
I would say there is more than one loser in that story.

sflayank 02-03-2016 07:27 PM
List
 
Splitting a lot has nothing to do with shill bidding
If theres a lot of yankees and dodgers and i collect yankees and my brother collects dodgers should we bid against each other?...thats a ridiculous comparison.
Thats why ive railed on people who put in max bids as idiots...bid once and then bid at the end..if you put in a max bid....u might not deserve to get screwed but u will...
If youre famous or well known major collector bid under your cousins name and address so the ah doesnt know u

xplainer 02-03-2016 07:36 PM
This thread makes another turn. Wow.:eek::eek:

sflayank 02-03-2016 07:40 PM
List
 
And btw...has any one on t his board figured out why these auction houses wont go to the 15 minute rule per lot?
ITS TO FORCE PEOPLE TO PUT IN MAX BIDS SO THEY DONT HAVE TO STAY UP TIL 4AM.

sbfinley 02-03-2016 07:52 PM
t
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflayank (Post 1499834)
And btw...has any one on t his board figured out why these auction houses wont go to the 15 minute rule per lot?
ITS TO FORCE PEOPLE TO PUT IN MAX BIDS SO THEY DONT HAVE TO STAY UP TIL 4AM.
I get why houses close all at once. It helps bring in more bids. Plenty of times I've reached my limit on one item so I fell back to another I was watching or put an early bid in on. If those would have happened to close early the house and consignor lose money.

sflayank 02-03-2016 08:10 PM
auctions
 
its a total fallacy...if the auction house rules were 15 minutes per lot or even 30 minutes per lot all the bidders would know that and bid accordingly....they want you to go to sleep and put in a max bid.....PERIOD...

sbfinley 02-03-2016 08:15 PM
I disagree, but hey it's a great country and we're allowed to.

begsu1013 02-03-2016 08:35 PM
i don't even think garmin could navigate this thread w/o a hefty dose of tylenol, but could someone transcribe a list of those who have stepped up and commented on their actions for me?

not asking whether you believe or even liked what they had to say, simply of those that had the balls to actually log in and post.

just curious to see how short the list is.

thanks in advance.

"recalculating"

ullmandds 02-03-2016 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1499858)
i don't even think garmin could navigate this thread w/o a hefty dose of tylenol, but could someone transcribe a list of those who have stepped up and commented on their actions for me?

not asking whether you believe or even liked what they had to say, simply of those that had the balls to actually log in and post.

just curious to see how short the list is.

thanks in advance.

"recalculating"
Shilling in the name of...

begsu1013 02-03-2016 09:23 PM
that was a good one!

i actually thought about posting it, but did not think anyone on here would actually get it.

i'd speculate that the median age of the board members here was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 53...

which basically rules them out of knowing anything about rage against the machine.

bulls on a parade, i guess.

ullmandds 02-03-2016 09:36 PM
im 46

begsu1013 02-03-2016 09:39 PM
38 1/2.

Runscott 02-03-2016 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflayank (Post 1499827)
Splitting a lot has nothing to do with shill bidding
If theres a lot of yankees and dodgers and i collect yankees and my brother collects dodgers should we bid against each other?...thats a ridiculous comparison.
Thats why ive railed on people who put in max bids as idiots...bid once and then bid at the end..if you put in a max bid....u might not deserve to get screwed but u will...
If youre famous or well known major collector bid under your cousins name and address so the ah doesnt know u
Thanks for laying all that knowledge on us.

wolf441 02-04-2016 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf441 (Post 1497640)
So this thread is now #7 all time in number of replies and #9 all time in number of views. I feel like I did when Bonds was chasing Aaron...

I'm predicting that it lands at #2 on both lists by the middle of next week.


Frank, the "What's Your Monster Number?" thread is safe...for now! :D
Nailed it!!

steve B 02-04-2016 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1499874)
that was a good one!

i actually thought about posting it, but did not think anyone on here would actually get it.

i'd speculate that the median age of the board members here was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 53...

which basically rules them out of knowing anything about rage against the machine.

bulls on a parade, i guess.
Hey now! I'm nearly 53 and knew the quote.

I sort of like their music, but not some of the other stuff about them.

Steve Birmingham

begsu1013 02-04-2016 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B (Post 1499968)
I sort of like their music

Steve Birmingham
no you don't! ; )

frankbmd 02-04-2016 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf441 (Post 1499933)
Nailed it!!
Steve,

This thread is a hare. The MN is a tortoise.

My first wife was a Neuman. What me worry!:D

wolf441 02-04-2016 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd (Post 1499983)
Steve,

This thread is a hare. The MN is a tortoise.

My first wife was a Neuman. What me worry!:D
That's right, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Don't worry, if this thread starts to get close to the Monster Number thread, I'll engage in "shill viewing" the monster thread to keep it at #1!! :D

1952boyntoncollector 02-04-2016 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf441 (Post 1499993)
That's right, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Don't worry, if this thread starts to get close to the Monster Number thread, I'll engage in "shill viewing" the monster thread to keep it at #1!! :D
Also there is allegations of HGH in this thread...any records will be met with an asterick *

1880nonsports 02-04-2016 10:34 AM
ok
 
Get Record Prices for your Cards and Collectibles at Goldin Auctions!


Sent By Goldin Auctions News On:Feb 02/04/16 10:34 AM

Bugsy 02-04-2016 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1880nonsports (Post 1500020)
Get Record Prices for your Cards and Collectibles at Goldin Auctions!


Sent By Goldin Auctions News On:Feb 02/04/16 10:34 AM
I noticed that too. He still hasn't commented on the list though :rolleyes:

bbcardzman 02-04-2016 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1499874)
that was a good one!

i actually thought about posting it, but did not think anyone on here would actually get it.

i'd speculate that the median age of the board members here was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 53...

which basically rules them out of knowing anything about rage against the machine.

bulls on a parade, i guess.
So people in this 50 something neighborhood don't know about Rage against the machine??!
Don't you know that we grew up listening to the original heavy metal pioneers? Why wouldn't we know good metal when we hear it?
Guess you youngsters wouldn't know about the older groups who are the reason there is a Rage Against the Machine, Metallica, Pantera, System of a Down, Tool, ect.
Ever hear of groups like - Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Iron Butterfly, Andromeda, Lucifer's Friend, Budgie, Steppenwolf, MC5, ect. ect.
Us old guys ARE the original headbangers, and age has nothing to do with it.
So rally round the family, with a pocket full of shells!

mickeymao34 02-04-2016 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1499874)
that was a good one!

i actually thought about posting it, but did not think anyone on here would actually get it.

i'd speculate that the median age of the board members here was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 53...

which basically rules them out of knowing anything about rage against the machine.

bulls on a parade, i guess.
Tom Morello was born in 1964. Group started in 1991 in which people aprox 53 were still in their late 20s. Now if you would have mentioned Bieber that be closer to your point.

begsu1013 02-04-2016 01:14 PM
easy guys.

even though you threw my post into the pretzel machine, 53 was not a knock.

nor the fact that most 53+ folks don't know who rage against the machine is.


on the contrary, eric...i actually like that a few of ya'll know or even like ratm.

seriously, i threw a lob of a water melon out there for an easy grandslam w/ bulls on parade. sat back and waited on "...and a pocket full of shills" and not one person ran with it.

so, i still officially stand by that statement 100% and that most here have no clue on that reference. however, that certainly isn't a knock to 53+ folks not having good musical taste. in fact i grew up in the 80's and while we had a decent run of bands, my dials go straight to 70's stations.


and while i appreciate the groups you like and don't feel the need to list my musical resume...i can assure you i know nothing about war pigs or sweet leaf smoke on the water which is literally about them burning down the montreux theatre, dime bag darrell, metallica and them being the only band to play on every continent, heck, they might have even played in the garden of eden or is it ina gadda da vida?, steppenwolf although i wouldn't refer to them as heavy metal.

all i know is that most here would not know the ratm reference and that fairies wear boots, ya gotta believe me.

besides after les paul and robert johnson, it's all just noise anyways!

-youngster

Exhibitman 02-04-2016 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflayank (Post 1499846)
its a total fallacy...if the auction house rules were 15 minutes per lot or even 30 minutes per lot all the bidders would know that and bid accordingly....they want you to go to sleep and put in a max bid.....PERIOD...
That is not my experience, Larry. Most times I have a pretty concrete budget I can work with for an auction. I have often gone into OT with high bids on several lots that were later knocked out, leaving me with available cash but nothing to bid on even though there were items I would have bid on otherwise. Conversely, in an auction like Sterling where all lots close at the same time, I have successfully shifted my 'action' to alternative lots when the ones I was high bidder on fell out.

ETA: Tom Morello is older than me but still way cooler...

Runscott 02-04-2016 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1500079)
easy guys.

even though you threw my post into the pretzel machine, 53 was not a knock.

nor the fact that most 53+ folks don't know who rage against the machine is.

.....

besides after les paul and robert johnson, it's all just noise anyways!

-youngster
I liked your original post.

Robert Johnson was the ultimate youngster!!!

Econteachert205 02-04-2016 03:25 PM
Consignors should like certain forms of collusion. I'm either going in on a lot with someone or not bidding at all. Which would you as consignor prefer?

rats60 02-04-2016 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman (Post 1500088)
That is not my experience, Larry. Most times I have a pretty concrete budget I can work with for an auction. I have often gone into OT with high bids on several lots that were later knocked out, leaving me with available cash but nothing to bid on even though there were items I would have bid on otherwise. Conversely, in an auction like Sterling where all lots close at the same time, I have successfully shifted my 'action' to alternative lots when the ones I was high bidder on fell out.

ETA: Tom Morello is older than me but still way cooler...
That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.

Mark17 02-04-2016 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1500171)
That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.
Agree.

Hunt Auctions works like that too and I love it. I place early initial bids on the lots I'm interested in and then on the final night it's easy to manage my budget. As each lot closes, I know I either won it or I didn't, so then I can proceed to the next lot (or go to bed, having spent my budget.)

I couldn't just put max bids on all four or five lots and then get to sleep, because I couldn't afford to win them all.

1880nonsports 02-04-2016 05:16 PM
and if you do get outbid
 
that outbid might just be at the hands of the "house". If you knew that - it might not feel that good.

"I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid."

earlywynnfan 02-04-2016 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1500171)
That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.
While I 100% agree that the 30 min. per lot rule is much better, I'm a little surprised that you'd state -- in a thread about shill bidding -- that you prefer to give your business to an AH whose rules state the consignor may bid on their own items and the AH itself reserves the right to bid on "undervalued" lots.

WindyCityGameUsed 02-04-2016 05:53 PM
I for one would like to thank Leon for having the courage to keep this thread open.

I would imagine its not easy to stand TALL and not cave against the not so unwritten code of silence that these AH scoundrels pressure others into doing if they even think of breaking ranks.

When an auction house such as Goldin can take control over a supposed collectors site for the explicit purpose of self promotion and silencing critics all hobbyists should wonder why and have concern as members of GUU & GUC are finding out.

Its apparent that collusion is alive and well with all participants bottom line benefiting economically.

The lights have gone on again in the industry and rest assured the roaches are scurrying around looking for cover back in the darkness and I for one choose the light of day.

Ron Kosiewicz

Mark17 02-04-2016 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed (Post 1500218)
I for 1 would like to thank Leon for having the courage to keep this thread open.

I would imagine its not easy to stand TALL and not cave against the not so unwritten code of science that these AH scoundrels pressure others into doing if they even think of breaking ranks.

When an auction house such as Goldin can take control over a supposed collectors site for the explicit purpose of self promotion and silencing critics all hobbyists should wonder why and have concern as members of GUU & GUC are finding out.

Its apparent that collusion is alive and well with all participants bottom line benefiting vastly economically.

The light have gone on again in the industry and you can rest assured that the roaches are scurrying around looking for cover back in the darkness and I for 1 choose the light of day.

Ron Kosiewicz
Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

HRBAKER 02-04-2016 06:38 PM
So does all of this light and noise change anything?

mickeymao34 02-04-2016 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1500248)
Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
No need to state which Forum. The Obvious is duely noted.
"Censorship:Protection From Reality"

Eric72 02-04-2016 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER (Post 1500251)
So does all of this light and noise change anything?
Hi Jeff,

Great question.

I truly believe it will change things. However, the breadth and depth of change that will result from this is clearly uncertain. There will be some people who do nothing, and others who use the now-public information to avoid doing business with all of those upon whom a negative light has been cast. Everyone else will fall somewhere in between, tailoring their response to this news in the manner which personally suits them best.

I do believe one thing is reasonable to presume. There are quite a few hobbyists who will approach auctions with a greater amount of care, caution, and due diligence. At least, they will for a while.

My sincere hope is that this occurrence serves as the starting point for sustained pressure on all auction houses to ensure fair, transparent, arms-length transactions. This also applies to other platforms where an auction format is offered. And yes, I'm looking at you, eBay.

Again, great question. Please know that my response was meant to add to an ongoing conversation, and I am not directing negativity towards you or any particular person.

Best regards,

Eric

WindyCityGameUsed 02-04-2016 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1500248)
Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
Sad but spot on.

The self proclaimed "Friend of the Collector" has dispatched both the Goldin Mossad and the paid help to put GUU on information lockdown in regards to his reported misdeeds 24/7.

Mods lights on that thread never go off with any posts that aren't from fan boys and/or are critical of his holiness are deleted within minutes of being posted with some members I hear being banned for nothing more than trying to discuss the matter.

Sum of the self important/entitled in this racket seem 2 forget that without US there is no them

1880nonsports 02-04-2016 08:19 PM
maybe the ideas of censorship
 
and suppression on another forum should have it's own thread. It's important if it's important to the community at large and I think it is - but I think in this thread perhaps it detracts a bit from the core issues regarding shilling and obfuscation. Just one man's opinion and nothing against the spirit of your concerns.

mickeymao34 02-04-2016 08:38 PM
1 Attachment(s)
The "Holiness" in question is on Consign/shill list and is owner and chief of that closed society. Thus, indeed does have merit being a owner of a AH. The recent posts on that "closed" society is robotic and too the (his) point. The people posting obviosly are plants" of Dear Leader. It's like reading transcripts from tonight's N.Korean news agency.

WindyCityGameUsed 02-04-2016 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER (Post 1500251)
So does all of this light and noise change anything?
The majority of change IMO will have to come at the hands of the FBI (who do by the way watch these forums) because these Turds will not be stopping on their own.

Their is 2 much $$$ at stake and the level of greed is 2 great 4 the powers that be 2 change on their own since Bill Mastro apparently was the baby daddy industry model for the bad behavior employed industry wide (Doctored cards, created/fake GU, shilling)

Nothing is given without U fighting for it and at this point its more about standing up for whats rite until the authorities take further action.

I personally try to avoid auctions when sourcing my GU after being shilled in probably every 1 I've ever participated in.

The surface has only been scratched here shilling is easier for the FBI 2 bust unlike the wave of created/fake GU or spec correct never worn passed off as GU sold in just about every auction I've ever looked at.

With all the companies running auctions on such a frequent basis does anyone truly believe that there is that much real quality items out there that aren't buried in someones collection?

Outright fake & misrepresented shit is as much apart of the hobby as shilling

Ron Kosiewicz

ls7plus 02-04-2016 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1496943)
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would let him bid using my ID. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if the bid from my account won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and the bid from my account was high bid, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.
I agree with Pete on this one--thanks for the explanation, Pete!

Larry

Kenny Cole 02-04-2016 08:53 PM
Quote:
Tom Morello is older than me but still way cooler...
Tom Morello is a guitar playing MF. He's awesome.

tiger8mush 02-04-2016 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER (Post 1500251)
So does all of this light and noise change anything?
I'd had a couple of initial bids placed with Goldin prior to the list being posted here. I decided not to bid further after learning of his name being tagged as a shiller in the list.

RichardSimon 02-04-2016 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole (Post 1500317)
Tom Morello is a guitar playing MF. He's awesome.
+1
I have seen him playing with Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band and he is an awesome guitar playing MF.

Kenny Cole 02-04-2016 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush (Post 1500320)
I'd had a couple of initial bids placed with Goldin prior to the list being posted here. I decided not to bid further after learning of his name being tagged as a shiller in the list.
Bravo. In my estimation, that is exactly what should change. Even given the "stuff trumps all" mentality many of us have, I really can't see what sense it makes to bid in an auction with an accused shiller who won't even respond to the accusations.

I cut Dave Kohler out after he screwed Ryan, Dave Kohler, Dave Kohler, Dave Kohler (for Ryan :)), because in my estimation, that situation was so obviously fraudulent that I couldn't even see another side. I counseled Ryan to sue his ass off. Ryan was nicer than I would have been. Since then I haven't even looked at one of his auctions. Nor have I missed it. I was sort of guarded about Goldin due to his past history, but I'm now out. I just really don't have time to buy from liars and thieves.

bcornell 02-04-2016 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole (Post 1500334)
Bravo. In my estimation, that is exactly what should change. Even given the "stuff trumps all" mentality many of us have, I really can't see what sense it makes to bid in an auction with an accused shiller who won't even respond to the accusations.

I cut Dave Kohler out after he screwed Ryan
Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

Beastmode 02-04-2016 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER (Post 1500251)
So does all of this light and noise change anything?
If you're still placing max bids on proprietary AH software where you can't snipe, and the auctions ends multiple times past midnight, and the AH is affiliated with the shill list, you either need a stupidity intervention or you have so much money you don't care.

IMO, that was the case before and after this shill list. The never ending auctions is by design, so the AH can see your max bid. What else needs to happen before buyers figure this out?

Beastmode 02-04-2016 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcornell (Post 1500340)
Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

Wow. Absolute BS.

Kenny Cole 02-04-2016 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcornell (Post 1500340)
Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.
Thank you Bill. Given this conversation it deserves to be brought up.

TheNightmanCometh 02-05-2016 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcornell (Post 1500340)
Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.
I'm sure the answer is no, but was the issue with the photo ever resolved?

SyrNy1960 02-05-2016 03:14 AM
:rolleyes:

tiger8mush 02-05-2016 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beastmode (Post 1500342)
IMO, that was the case before and after this shill list. The never ending auctions is by design, so the AH can see your max bid. What else needs to happen before buyers figure this out?
I left 3 max bids with Sterling last night around midnight. Woke up this morning to find I was outbid on one. The other two didn't have another bid placed on them after my bids, and were multiple bids shorts of my max.

Snapolit1 02-05-2016 06:18 AM
Same here. That's what will make me come back to an AH. I won't get into bidding wars with any place linked to fraud. Won't do it. Not saying I will never bid on their stuff, but will be very cognizant that the person bidding against me could be a fraud.

Kenny Cole 02-05-2016 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh (Post 1500355)
I'm sure the answer is no, but was the issue with the photo ever resolved?
No.

batsballsbases 02-05-2016 07:41 AM
1 Attachment(s)
I always wondered how much extra these and many other items cost me thru the years. Maybe one day I will get my answer... Note the owner of these. Like many and myself have said I do hope they show years above 2009.

RichardSimon 02-05-2016 08:14 AM
I guess all we can do is speculate about what might have went on when "Mr. Mastro, prison inmate" sold his personal collection.

begsu1013 02-05-2016 08:39 AM
http://caimages.collectors.com/psaim...18/connery.jpg

i got one simple question for those who got shilled...

WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO ABOUT IT?

again, i never really purchased from ah's. luckily i'm lazy, unwilling to learn 30 different user ids and passwords or bid in 15 min spans after the auction closes or any of that absolute bs, but...

I can guaranfntee that if I was "just another victim" of the sgc owner and his brother that i would be down in boca raton right now w/ a fully charged iphone, videoing him get served w/ suit right in the middle of church this sunday. the proof is literally right in front of you.

obviously allen and maestro are turnips at this point, but aren't there a lot of folks that are still major players in the auction/fraud game!

so, again. and instead of posting on a message board about how crooked they are and how all of this is a travesty...

what are you prepared to do?

or more importantly what ARE you doing besides typing/talking on some forum?

jason.1969 02-05-2016 08:54 AM
Sounds like the bidders some of you competed against into the wee hours were as real as the Ashley Madison babes other dudes were staying up late with!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Mark17 02-05-2016 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1500439)
so, again. and instead of posting on a message board about how crooked they are and how all of this is a travesty...

what are you prepared to do?

or more importantly what ARE you doing besides typing/talking on some forum?
I'm changing my bidding habits and will from now on only bid incrementally (never again will I place a maximum bid.) I'm having conversations within and outside this forum to determine which AH I feel I can trust (there are some.)

As to punishing the offenders, I'll leave that up to the FBI and the courts.

People posting on these message boards about their various experiences is helpful to me in determining who I want to do business with in the future. This is a useful topic to discuss, and WAY better than not discussing it at all, pretending it doesn't exist, or trying to stifle the conversation.

And the biggest thing I've learned is, thank goodness for net54, because Leon is the ONLY owner of a major hobby site that I know of, who is allowing the conversation. This, despite several posters using the opportunity to attack him personally.

I value the concept of free speech pretty highly (as with other basic essential rights we must all have to live in a free society,) and I also value the concept of ownership, and the fact that Leon, or any site owner, has the right to delete posts and ban members as he chooses. So, when he chooses to allow us to openly discuss this, and he allows several people to use the opportunity to attack him personally, I think it's pretty significant.

I used to spend 80% of my hobby blog time on another site and occasionally checked things out here. That has dramatically changed. I've lost a lot of respect for that other site, the way they've shut down this conversation, and I've developed a lot of respect for the owner of this site.

So... that's doing things and making tangible changes.

keithsky 02-05-2016 10:47 AM
At almost 800 posts you can see this topic is affecting all of us. Some of the post on here have gotten off topic but quickly gets back on tract. I also give Leon credit for letting everyone voice there opinion on this even if it he has taken jabs personally at him which he has taken it well and could have easily deleted it but hasn't, so kudos to him. Guys are concerned about the shilling going on and when you go on other sites, people have said they have deleted posts. If your on that list why not make a small comment about it. If people were making statements about me I think I would defend myself. I think most guys on the list that haven't made a comment are just waiting for things to die down and go away. Like most things people move on and forget or let it go and in my opinion in a few weeks there won't be anymore posts on this as it will run it's coarse and those guys won't have to worry about it anymore at least for the time being. I hope the topic stays alive and we all need to police the hobby. Thanks Leon for letting us vent.

Rich Klein 02-05-2016 10:47 AM
There is a thread still open on Beckett but because the audience is far different, that thread went nowhere

http://www.beckett.com/forums/thread-1580531.html

Rich

RichardSimon 02-05-2016 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1500439)
http://caimages.collectors.com/psaim...18/connery.jpg

luckily i'm lazy, unwilling to learn 30 different user ids and passwords
Dashlane.com

great password/wallet software and it is free for your PC.

4815162342 02-05-2016 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon (Post 1500504)
Dashlane.com



great password/wallet software and it is free for your PC.

LastPass is my password manager of choice. It also works with my iPhone - I can log into websites with my fingerprint (Touch ID).


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