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On day 1, Zues created auction houses.
On day 2, Hades created shill bidding. If you participate in bidding at auctions against strangers then shill bidding in one form or another is a significant and predictable risk. Too easy to call a friend and have him place a bid for you. It's unethical and illegal. But, very hard to police. So I accept it as a hobby hazard. Having said that, once in awhile the rock is lifted, the sun shines on the mud beneath and the bugs scatter. And we can see you all very clearly now. You were betting we wouldn't ever see you. Oops. |
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Al S!m@on@ |
the fact that there are a number of lawyers on the list is a bit disconcerting to me...but again...not too shocking.
sorry if this comment offended any of the "other" lawyers on the board...as I know there are a bunch. you'd never see dentists doing this kinda shit!:p |
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ALWAYS LOOKING FOR COMPLETE TOPPS 60-70 NBA SETS THAT ARE IN GOOD TO EXCELLENT CONDITION. |
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ALWAYS LOOKING FOR COMPLETE TOPPS 60-70 NBA SETS THAT ARE IN GOOD TO EXCELLENT CONDITION. |
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J.Micah W ALWAYS LOOKING FOR COMPLETE TOPPS 60-70 NBA SETS THAT ARE IN GOOD TO EXCELLENT CONDITION. |
The List
Very interesting to see this, especially when we have a consigner listed dozens of times and the shill bidder was always the same person, and that shill bidder is not show as shilling on anyone else's lots. Draw your own conclusions. Just an observation.
Dave Grob |
I see some where (For example)
Consignor: John Doe Shill Bidder: Paul Smith Winnnig: Paul Smith how does that qualify as shill if he won it? |
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This practice, i'm sure, is still happening and so common. I'm sure Houses believe this is just "part of the business".
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Dentists drill deeper to get to the root of the problem Lawyers just touch the surface trying to cover the surface with Fluff... ;);) |
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That logic is crazy....so they pay for it twice? If i have an item that i paid $1000.00 for, but i want to sell it for $10,000.... and it reaches only $7,000...why the F would i pay 7k, only to hope it sells for 10k later? |
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If you are willing to pay 20% BP when winning your own auction I don't see a big problem with it..but its hard for me to believe that the people winning their own auctions as a hidden reserve are really paying that BP....most people think the auction house is waving it..or at best reducing it down .to lets say 5%...if you are paying a reduced buyers premium than that's bad as well because its not at even playing field with the real bidders who have to pay 20% BP |
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the problem with shilling as well..is you feel if you bought a card..you at least should be able to sell it the next week for a 20% loss..but if they were shill bids than maybe you overpaid by 50%...if there not really a legit underbidder...these fake bids make it seem there is legitimate interest out there....when you pay a BIN or know of a reserve..then you know you may be paying easily over 20% what the card would go for on the open market the next week and you are fine with it.. |
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Minnesota dentists are the worst at this...or so I've heard. :D |
Audit Procedures
When you have the suspected shiller as the winner of the lot (no one chased them higher), you can always still look at invoicing and payment documents to see if the lot was actually paid for and by who. When you find that the suspected shiller has won lots, not paid for them themselves (and often by the consigner and NOT in the full amount), this tells you something.
In addition when you see this type of non-payment activity and the auction house continues to let the same bidder continue to bid, this is equally telling, as it suggests the non-payment for the lot in full is not an issue for the auction house. Assume what you want about the related consigner, especially if an exclusive pattern exists. The damage does not end there, since in any number of cases, the final shilled bid (no real sale) is promoted as a genuine "price realized" and this in fact skews the perceived market valuation. Dave Grob |
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That comment might be the shot heard round the world!!:D:D |
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I had consigned a few very high ticket items (Not Legendary) and I also wanted a reserve (sorta high) placed on the items. I was told that most auction houses dont like reserve because if the reserve on that item was possibly put to high then all the work that the AH did for you I.E. photos taken , descriptions written by staff, room taken up in the catalogue etc. would be lost if the item or items didnt sell. I found out that they would rather make something in and out (buyer ,seller) than nothing... on your dime!! |
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guess it got taken down? |
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Thats EXACTLY where i was leading..... i bet no one paid for a single one.... |
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I think it was a joke....just look at the URL :) |
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Let's say Mr. Goldbrick consigns an item with mr maestro, who wants a lower minimum bid than Goldbrick is comfortable with. Mr All-in suggests that a friend could bid to the minimum in Goldbrick's comfort zone. A bid in the name of mr spacecadet is then made.
Mr. Spacecadet then wins the auction. Spacecadet then pays mr maestro for the item with fees. Then Spacecadet returns the item to mr Goldbrick, who reimburses him for his costs and thanks him. Mr All-in is IMO guilty by suggesting the scheme. Mr Goldbrick is perhaps negligent in retrospect for playing along. Mr Spacecadet is not guilty. The outcome pleases all parties. No names ever appear on a "shill" list nine years later. I would suggest that this scenario occurs more frequently than many of us would imagine. This scenario would also fly under the radar and would be deniable by all concerned. |
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And also if you were one of the ones on the "Special Packages" list I bet you didnt have to pay a dime! |
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It's still shill bidding if you pay the BP and buy your own item back. It seems like you're all saying it's not.
-Ryan |
For those that are wondering why anyone would buy their own card rather than it selling low, here is how it works. You bought a card for $1000, and now you feel it is worth $10000. You decide to send it to an auction house. Many auction houses will waive the consignor fee on high profile items, and will offer to share a percentage of the buyers premium with the consignor as well, for ease of math, let's say half. So the auction is closing, and your card is going to close low, so you buy it through your buddy at $5000. You now pay the house $6000, and they cut you your consignment check for $5500. You now have a total of $1500 invested in the card. Had you not bought the card and it sold to someone else for $5000, you would have made a profit of $4500. You didn't let it sell, so you consign it a couple months later, this time it sells for $7000 (same terms). You get a check for $7700, a profit of $6200. That is why people buy their own consignments instead of letting them sell low. I have never consigned a card, I don't have any of the big dollar collections, but I can figure out the "why" of it. This is in no way meant to condone any practice, I am just trying to clear the reasoning up. It is purely based on profit margins. I am also sure that, as an apprentice collector, I still don't understand or explain here all the nuances involved in the business end of this (I haven't even mentioned how setting historical sales records come into play as a reason for buying your own card), but I think my example paints a fairly accurate picture. Please correct me if I am wrong. No opinions of anyone listed in my post, per the rules. :)
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so if I bid 1000 and I get beat out at 1010 and that guy keeps his card but has to pay $200 to keep it..good for him... if someone wins their own 1952 Topps PSA 8 Mantle..and they think 375,000 is too low and want 425,000 for the card..let them pay 375,00 to keep the card and pay a 70,000 BP...good luck to them there as well....I just don't seem them shilling that mantle that high..they would have to stop at at about 275,000... the problem is when they don't have to pay a BP or its 5 percent etc |
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So does Mastro and his cronies have to pay restitution to these customer who where shill bid against? This really weakens my faith in these auction houses and the bottom line is they make money off the juice from these sales.
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Right my scenario is if 20% is paid.....I would bid at AH's that say 'shilling Is allowed subject to 20% BP if win item'
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The Daily News chimes in
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And for the dentist
I hope dentists where you practice are better than Dallas Dentists
http://interactives.dallasnews.com/2...try/part1.html This is must reading for anyone with kids who need to go to a dentist Rich |
Thats a terrible story, Rich. I'd avoid going to a general dentist who took a weekend class on sedation offering coupons.
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I was lucky, when I was at Beckett, most of us went to a specific dentist. That dentist ran into some real problems.
I somehow avoided him and ended up with one of the best perios in Plano,. And then when I had to get to a general dentist as well, I gave him the list of the then approved dentists from my insurance company and he told me whom to go as; He's a decent dentist and the best of this bunch. Perios usually know whom the good dentists are because of all the work they do on gums. Rich |
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