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Buythatcard
06-12-2012, 10:49 PM
I just received some Sweet Caporal Pins that I won in an auction. One of the pins actually had a Whitehead & Hoag insert. I've handled hundreds of Sweet Caporals and never saw a back insert like that.

I think that someone actually stuck that in the back on one of their pins.

Unless I have missed something all these years, has anyone ever seen this done before? Why would someone actually do this?

skooter
06-13-2012, 12:59 AM
Some years back I had about 100 of these pins. Every one had a paper insert. Personally, I wouldn't have bought a pin without the insert. But that's just me.

Leon
06-13-2012, 08:21 AM
Maybe there are different kinds but the PX7 Sweet Caporal pins, known as Domino Discs from their backs, should have this kind of back.....

http://luckeycards.com/ppx7sweetcaporalcollins.jpg

scooter729
06-13-2012, 08:32 AM
Howard, from the edges that looks like a P2 pin, right? I have not seen any like that, and with the P2's being issued around 1910, any of the W&H backings like that which I have seen have been on pins issued in the 1890's, so that seems quite interesting if original.

Leon
06-13-2012, 08:47 AM
Howard, from the edges that looks like a P2 pin, right? I have not seen any like that, and with the P2's being issued around 1910, any of the W&H backings like that which I have seen have been on pins issued in the 1890's, so that seems quite interesting if original.


Right, the P2s have a different backing......I have seen the Whitehead and Hoag paper backings on a ton of pins....but not PX7 or P2. Maybe the original one was missing the back and someone just put that one in there so it would have a back? Not sure the reasoning...

http://luckeycards.com/pp2x2.jpg

Buythatcard
06-13-2012, 05:19 PM
Leon,

Loved your Domino Discs. I hear there is a huge market for discs which show any dice that rolled a 7.

Yea, I am beginning to think that someone stuck that insert in. It's funny but that pin was in a plastic top loader marked as Scarce Special Printers Issue.

I plan on posting it on eBay but will have to state that I believe it was inserted by someone. There might be someone who might be interested in it. I am sure I can get at least 99 cents for it.

You never know what you will find these days.

nolemmings
06-13-2012, 05:43 PM
I'm too lazy to help much, but I notice that the Whitehead & Hoag insert has a union symbol similar to one on a Konetchy tribute card that Leon owns, one dated to 1912. That symbol may not have been around in the 1890s--I just don't know. If it was not, then maybe Whitehead & Hoag issued other pins in the 1910-1912 era--this may be no surprise to pin collectors. That would mean whether by accident or on purpose, a W&H back got inserted from some other pin set into the P2. Maybe the job of placing the inserts into pins was farmed out to a company that did it both for Sweet Cap and W&H. Just stoking the fire.

Buythatcard
01-07-2020, 12:27 PM
I originally started this thread back in 2012 asking whether anyone ever saw a Sweet Caporal pin with a Whitehead & Hoag insert.
I have sold 1,374 Sweet Caporal Pins over the years and I just came across the second one that has the same insert.
Looking at the insert it says 1896 while I know the pins are from 1910-12.

I find it strange why someone would use that particular insert. Seeing it once, I just accepted it. But now seeing it for the second time, just baffles me.

Just wondering whether others have seen this?

scooter729
01-07-2020, 01:03 PM
Interesting for sure, and I can't answer the question now any better than I could in 2012.

But I do know that for those who collect the P2 pins, there doesn't seem to be much interest in any back variations regardless of scarcity. I know there is a scarce variation where the typical back appears but with orange lettering. These are tough - I only have one (Speaker LL) and am only aware of a small handful of others - but they don't seem to command much of a premium at all.

So these scarce W&H backs may indeed be original, but it may not matter much when it comes to the selling price because of lack of demand.

steve B
01-07-2020, 01:22 PM
Without looking exactly what the patent is for, the date is just the patent date for some aspect of the pin or how it was made. It could have been made well after that.

Maybe W+H branded some pins for themselves as samples?
Or there was some release under a different brand, but they decided to not get a special insert?
Or.. Maybe they just didn't have enough SC labels one day and used what was on hand?

Buythatcard
01-07-2020, 01:26 PM
Without looking exactly what the patent is for, the date is just the patent date for some aspect of the pin or how it was made. It could have been made well after that.

Maybe W+H branded some pins for themselves as samples?
Or there was some release under a different brand, but they decided to not get a special insert?
Or.. Maybe they just didn't have enough SC labels one day and used what was on hand?

A lot of maybes. It's just one of those things we may never know.

Buythatcard
01-07-2020, 01:27 PM
Interesting for sure, and I can't answer the question now any better than I could in 2012.

But I do know that for those who collect the P2 pins, there doesn't seem to be much interest in any back variations regardless of scarcity. I know there is a scarce variation where the typical back appears but with orange lettering. These are tough - I only have one (Speaker LL) and am only aware of a small handful of others - but they don't seem to command much of a premium at all.

So these scarce W&H backs may indeed be original, but it may not matter much when it comes to the selling price because of lack of demand.

Never saw the orange lettering version. If you get a chance, can you post a pic of it? I would love to see it.

steve B
01-07-2020, 01:28 PM
A lot of maybes. It's just one of those things we may never know.

I'd put that as more than "may never know".. I was just reading that when W+H ran down and got bought by a competitor in 1959, the plant wasn't added to the competition, but was closed, sold, and everything - Records, dies, all of it trashed.

Buythatcard
01-07-2020, 01:37 PM
I'd put that as more than "may never know".. I was just reading that when W+H ran down and got bought by a competitor in 1959, the plant wasn't added to the competition, but was closed, sold, and everything - Records, dies, all of it trashed.

Too bad.

We can make up our own stories so that collectors down the road will quote our findings.

scooter729
01-07-2020, 05:15 PM
Never saw the orange lettering version. If you get a chance, can you post a pic of it? I would love to see it.

Sure thing, here it is....

Buythatcard
01-07-2020, 07:47 PM
Sure thing, here it is....

Never seen one like this before. Really never paid attention to the colors.

Thanks for posting.

obcmac
01-08-2020, 08:28 AM
I reviewed my P2 set...not nearly enough discussion about P2's :-)

I have 11 pins with the red/orange printing on the back. All of them are on Large Letter pins. With respect to the backing, it seems that the cardboard comes in 4 colors (easiest to hardest)...white and grey, orange, and blue...with a rough 45/45/8/2 split on the colors (my eyeball estimate). I didn't have any W&H backs.

Mac

1880nonsports
01-08-2020, 04:26 PM
has all the back papers and some dating for W&H pinbacks. I doubt the W&H back paper is original to the Sweet Cap pin because of the issue dates but not my area although I do collect pins. I'll look some things up.....

phlflyer1
01-08-2020, 05:34 PM
It's been a long time since I managed to finish off the P2 set years ago but I don't remember seeing any W&H pin backings amongst my collection.

I'm half tempted to start pulling these out of the display box just to double check but, at over 200 pins, I'll just rely on my memory instead. :D

Jay Wolt
01-08-2020, 06:49 PM
Scott go for it, check & scan each pin back :D

Been awhile since we hooked up, I miss those bbq's at your place w/ all the card collectors