Let's Talk E90-1....toughest Candy card set ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This is the "Rodney Dangerfield" set of vintage card collecting.....
that is, "it doesn't get much respect". On this current Forum54 page
two posters have initiated topics regarding this set and there has not
been much of a follow-up. This has also been true of past postings on
this set.
Well, I will tell you I have a lot of RESPECT for this set, as it took me
quite a few years to complete it. Fortunately, I did it when it was still
affordable. My 1st E90-1 card was the really tough Mike Mitchell, since
in an early '80s BB card Mag. it was listed as a "must buy" rare card.
So, being a set collector, once I acquired it, I thought the remaining
119 cards would be "easy". Boy, was I in for a rude awakening.

The backs of these Caramel cards advertised 100 Subjects and this was
likely the intended original design. But, the American Caramel Co. kept
adding cards of players due to trades during 1909 - 1911. In fact the
2nd Cy Young (pitching pose) card reflects his trade to Cleveland.
Two cards were issued of Fred Clarke....the 1st erroneously depicted
him with Philadelphia; then, they corrected this by issuing a 2nd card
of him with Pittsburg. And, the list of additional cards goes on and on.

Anyhow, I don't claim to be an expert on this set, but I would be curious
to see how many members on this Forum have completed this set ?

Come on let's talk it up...."this is the kind of stuff that (BB card) dreams
are made of"....Trivia....what movie is that quote from ?

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

had about 65-70 of the set....the generally 'easy' ones with a couple toughies. They all have new homes now!

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Ted,

I used to collect this set a long time ago. It was really cheap in the 80's. For some reason or other people didn't like the caramel sets too much back then. That's one reason I started to pick them up because they could be had for a song. I got through about 40 - 50 different cards and then got interested in other things. I ended up trading most of them within the last 10 years or so. I only kept a few of the cards. They truly are a nice set to collect. The poses and colors make them attractive. The nice challenge about this set is that it has over 100 cards with a lot of great players. I guess the amount of players and distribution (relative to T206) makes this set kind of tough to finish but it is a goal that can be reached (unless you need Jackson and Mitchell, then it might be a little expensive and/or tough).

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Ted,

I had complete set minus Jackson, but with 2 Mitchells - one very nice(PSA 5). Many cards were trimmed. Now I just have the Boston cards all graded in the 3 to 5 range. Sometime will get the ones that are not in SGC holders crossed over. I am back from Honduras and will email you about 49 Leafs.

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Posted By: dd

I own 30-40 cards from this set, mostly HOFERS. Not tempted to complete the set but do enjoy some of the individual cards.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Looking back at what I collected in the 80s, probably my only regret was not paying more attention to caramel cards, this set in particular. I was always on the lookout for a Jax, but could never find one at a price I liked.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

"this is the kind of stuff that (BB card) dreams
are made of"....Trivia....what movie is that quote from ?

The Maltese Falcon

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Bob

You got it right....you are the Trivia King for the day.

Now, do you recall who, of the 3 main actors in that particular
scene in the Maltese Falcon, said this quote ?

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Posted By: barrysloate

But I'll go with Sidney Greenstreet.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

????

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Bogey


Steve

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Posted By: RayB

Peter Lorre?

I currently have around 15 of these E90-1's and as Ringo says they "Don't Come Easy". Even the low graders that I dabble in get a lot of play.

I like a challenge, but ultimately this might end up being more than I can handle...what a glorious set though. We'll see.
RayB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PETER

Two Mike Mitchell cards, now that is really amazing. Besides the
one in my set, I have only seen one more in the past 24 years.

This card, with its bright Yellow background, sparks a certain
"mystique" in my imagination very similar to when I see a real
T206 Wagner or Plank or Magie....or a 1934 LaJoie....or even
a 1952 Topps Mantle or 1954 Bowman Ted Williams.

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Posted By: Bob

It was Bogey.
The E90-1 set is not as hot as the other caramel card sets right now with the exception of the very scarce cards in the set and the horizontals. There are actually cards like David Shean which are almost impossible to find and yet no one ever acknowledges it in a publication or post. I put the set together (minus Joe Jax) card by card so I know how tough Upp, Shean, Walsh, etc really are. One of these days the set will come back in to fashion, it is always a matter of time. Look how long it took the T207 and M116 sets to start taking off...

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Posted By: Anonymous

is the e107 breisch williams set tougher than the e90-1 by far?

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Posted By: Brett

i wish i could buy a e107 for under $200 !

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

And, the Winners are Steve D. and Bob M.

In the last scene in the Maltese Falcon are Bogart, Mary Astor, Barton
McLane, and Ward Bond (the two Detectives). Ward Bond asks Bogey about
the statue and Bogey tells him....."it is the stuff that dreams are made of".

Barry....did you know that this is Sidney Greenstreet's "rookie" movie ?

OK, down to business.....I will not argue with those that argue that the
Breisch-Williams set is tougher than the E90-1. However, since the E107
cards were produced before such greats as Cobb, Jackson, and Johnson, it
doesn't get much respect as it probably deserves. There is no doubt, and a
proven fact, that certain stars (and the more of them) make for a given BB
card set's popularity. Nevertheless, with 158 cards in it (including Matty and
Wagner), the E107 set is certainly a challenging set to complete.

I chose to collect the E90-1 cards because they were colorful, they included
all the major stars of that era, and I had a headstart with the rare cards in
this set.

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Posted By: leon

When talking about e90-1 vs E107 I guess it should be pointed out that no one (that I am aware of) has ever completed an E107 set. regards

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Posted By: Andy Baran

There is no comparison when it comes to scarcity between the 2 sets. I am confident that each individual player in the E107 set is more rare than the E90-1 Mitchel. I personally don't believe that the Mitchel is that rare. It is certainly more rare than the other cards in the set, but it is not impossible to find. The internet has changed my opinion of the scarcity of that card. If you were traveling to card shows in the 80's looking to find one, odds are you would probably come up short. But in today's market, there is a Mitchel available in almost every major auction.

The fact that the E107 set is less collected has nothing to do with lack of respect for the issue. To the contrary, I would guess that most collectors have a tremendous amount of respect for this set. It is not as popular among collectors because the cards are so scarce, and the prices have climbed to levels beyond the budgets of many collectors. Putting together a set of E107's would be an astonishing accomplishment, and one that has never been done to the best of my knowledge.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey guys....I started this out as an "upbeat" Thread on what in my
opinion is an "unheralded" set....E90-1. And, was hoping to generate
some interesting experiences by Forum members' in collecting these
cards. After all, it is a major BB card set.

Instead, we are starting to de-generate into a "this vs that" conver-
sation. Hey, we all fully appreciate the difficulty in acquiring a near set,
or perhaps even all 158 cards to complete the E107 set. And, that would
certainly make for a extremely interesting Thread on its own.

But, where did I, initially, try to compare these two sets ? NO WHERE !

Continuing, so far Peter Thomas, Bob Marquette, and I have put to-
gether the E90-1 set (119 or 120 cards). And, several guys have col-
lected approx. 1/2 the set. That's fine, and it would be interesting to
get more inputs on these cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leonard Maltin's book says it is Sydney Greenstreet's first talkie- that suggests he made some silent movies.

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Posted By: Bob Shannon

Ted, I own 119/120.....Need Joe Jax.

Bob

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Posted By: Scott Gross

Thanks Ted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As an originator of the "How many Mitchell's are out there" thread, I'm glad you got some responce to this one (I got 3 -- thanks, Jay, Bob S., and again, Ted -- ). I was almost ready to take my Duffy, go home, and cry myself to sleep .....

Other than my interest (obsession) with this GREAT set, is my quandry on why it is hardly discussed. A beautiful set, caramels are hot, not too large, HOFs, rarities ... all adds up to a popular discussion topic. But mention it, and you get the ssssssssssssshhhh.

From reading some of the post, both on the lines and inbtween the lines, along with my own opinion, I think this set has too many secrets:

Not a big T206er, but I can name big five and come close to 6-10.
T207 Loudermilk, e102 Miller fielding, t205 Hobby, etc. etc. And most casual hobbyists can come up with e90 Mitchell, Speaker, Sweeney, Graham, etc.

But, as memtioned, not that many know that "Shean" is a killer, and maybe it's best to keep it that way. I mentioned that Upp was the last "common" I need in a tread, and the next thing I know I have two guys from the Sapprano's knocking at my door ....

This all may sound negative and paranoid, but it isn't ... heck next time a Dougherty come up for auction, I'll be deaf, dumd, and blind too.

I also think this is a perfect example of a set that had it's run in the 80-90's and is taking some time off to other sets, and will have a comeback in the (near) future.

Sorry, got to go, just got a call from a "Mr. Dougherty."

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Posted By: Bob

One card which wasn't that difficult for me (I guess I was very lucky) was the McLean card. I have seen astonishing bids on it whenever it pops up on ebay. The Speaker is also tough and I have only seen a couple in vg-ex or better in the last 5 or 6 years for sale. It usually is an SGC 10 or PSA 1 when you find one.
My last card to find was the Shean, I would be curious to see which was the last card for the rest of you.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BOB S

Thanks for showing the Mitchell card. And, congrats on acquiring the
119 cards in the set.


BARRY S

My Film Encyclopedia says it was his very 1st screen debut. Perhaps he
was a stage actor in his native England before he came to America.
In any event, I can't imagine not hearing Sidney Greenstreet's voice.
He and Peter Lorre were a "classic" pair.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Maltese Falcon was made in 1941 and talkies were around for more than a dozen years, so it doesn't make sense to me either...there's a research project for you- what was Sydney Greenstreet doing in the 1930's? You can multitask it while cataloguing E90-1's.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SCOTT G.

You started, what I thought would be an interesting and informative
Thread on a subject that isn't talked about much on this Forum. And,
it "died". In fact, I was the last to post on your Thread. Sorry, my
post must of been the "kiss of death". I really don't understand it.

Anyhow, it's been over 10 years, but I think Shean was my the 120th
card to complete the set. I don't recall, but is Shean Boston (NL)
or Chicago (NL) in the E90-1 set ?
I ask this because in the T205 set Shean (Chi-NL) is quite tough. He
was traded twice in 1911...from Boston to Chi and then back to Boston.
Uncertainty such as this cause player's cards to become tough to acquire,
as more than likely they were "short-printed". Examples of this are in the
T206 set. Subsequent trades of Demmitt, O'Hara, Elberfeld, Dahlen, Kleinow,
and others during this set's production are some that come to mind.

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Posted By: Bob

Ted- I am curious if the other collectors who have put together the E90-1 set have it sans slabs. Mine is and I wonder if the others are also...
Bob

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Posted By: robert a

I have not tried to complete the e90 set, but I've paid attention to the toughies and tried to keep track of a few of them as they popped up for sale (not in people's collections).

I know for sure that I've seen duffy the least.

This might have to do with the fact that mitchell is a little bit more sought after due to its status as the toughest in the set (people are more likely to sell it because they know it will bring good money).

I've never been able to find a speaker or a walsh for my collection, but have seen two walsh cards (different examples) available over the last year. I've seen one speaker (very lowgrade) offered publicly since last summer. I haven't followed karger closely enough, but know that i've seen more than one on ebay. I have a keeler horizontal and think it's a tough card, but nowhere near the top three toughies imho.

Jackson is interesting because it's one of those cards (like e90-3 gandil and e98 matty) that aren't known as toughies for the set, but still are scarce because they're highly collectible. Well, doesn't that make them tough? I think so. Tough to find is tough to find. Still, jackson can be found more often than duffy.

Robert

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BOB M

Pardon my ignorance, but I am not sure what you mean by
"sans slabs" ? Please enlighten me. As far as my sets are
concerned....I let all the cards in my sets "breathe".

The only "slabbed" cards I have are for sale.

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Posted By: Ben

Sans = french for "without".

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks Ben

I don't know French....don't care to....but I know Greek.

So, to me it's "OCHIE"....that's Greek for NO

Therefore, I say "Ochie Plastics" for my cards.

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Posted By: ockday

It's taken me about 3 years but I have finally completed my e90-1 set. The last 2 cards I needed were McLean and finally Walsh.Some observations from the past 3 years... Duffy and Speaker in decent shape are extremely tough to find. M.Mitchell and Jackson were more readily available if you were willing to pay the price.Others like Bemis and Richie in nice condition are hard to find.
All my cards are SGC graded and there is also another complete set in better condition than mine on the SGC registry.

Alan

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

lets not forget that Hugh Duffy card, not only is
it a toughy ,but a stunner in the set.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

So far, there are 6 Forum members who have acquired 119/120 cards to com-
plete this set. Of course, I did not expect a large number of completed sets as
these cards are not as available as the numerous T-cards. And, the popularity
of Candy cards seems to be a relatively recent phenomena.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I have the registry set, Caramel Monster and am far along on a second.

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Posted By: brian p

I stopped at an even 100 a few years ago (actually 101--tbob got my Shean), and didn't bother with acquiring the expensive rarities and most of the big dollar star cards. About 50-60 of the more common non-star cards can be had for as cheap as any of the the small size E-cards, at least in the lower grades. A great set, and one that definitely gets overlooked, at least on this board.

Brian

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian P

Your set counts in my book....after all, Am Car advertised 100 subjects
on the back of these cards. And, you attained that number of cards.
Besides, the remaining 20 "toughies" are there essentially because of
last minute trades or corrections.

Yomass

Great going, your a man close to my heart. I, too, like to complete sets
in multiples. I've done that with N162, T206, '33 Goudey, '41 PlayBall,
and Bowmans (1948 & 1949) and finally....DARE....I....say....1952 TOPPS.
(pardon me LEON for that last remark). I have collected at least two of
each of these sets in the past 25 years, and many more of the 1948 & 1949
Bowmans.

However, with this "baby", I was content with just one set. More power to
you guy, I am really impressed.

I forgot to add.....VILLANOVA.....all the way to the Championship !

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Posted By: Scott Gross

Ted,
To answer your Shean team question, he is designated as Boston NL.

Upon checking that info out, a light bulb went off above my head, sometimes just a faint night-light, none-the-less .....

Check out a sampling of e90-1 Boston NL players:
Shean, B. Sweeney, Graham, Richie.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe Am. Caramel finally decided to put out some cards from the worst 1909-11 team (142-315 record those 3 years):

"They just plain sucked! I've seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked." -- Homer Simpson.

Although to be fair to the decent Boston Americans:
Stahl, Speaker, Karger, Young, Hall

.
.
.
.
.

Cincinnati: Mitchell, MClean, Lobert ......... man my heads starting to hurt.

And, yes, somewhere John Pinone's smiling ....

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scott

I think you have "stumbled" across the possible explanation for why
certain cards are so difficult in this set. Your Boston "connection"
appears to be the 1st key. But, I will carry it further by lumping in
both Boston teams' players. And, there is a 2nd "conspiracy" regarding
Cinc. players. What do the following players have in common....TOUGH

Boston (AL) players..Hall, Karger, Schlitzer, Speaker, Stahl, Sweeney.

Boston (NL) players..Donlin, Graham, Shean, Tenney (mgr), Cy Young (traded)

Cincinnati players.....Karger, Lobert, Mitchell

Note....Karger gets a "Double Whammy" as he was traded to Boston in 1909.

So, for some unknown reason the Phladelphia based Co. that produced the
E90-1 Caramel cards had a problem with portraying these players and there-
fore we can only conclude that they were short-printed.

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Posted By: cmoking

looks like the #1 set on the PSA Registry will be in REA, here's the link to the article on the PSA site

And the link to the set on the PSA Registry.

Any guesses as to the final hammer price?

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Posted By: Paul Kaufman

Ted- I think that you and Scott are on to something here.....I count 6 cards each for Boston AL, Boston NL and Cinn. ......could these be the additional 18 cards added later to the original 100 ? If you add on the two variation cards: Clarke Pitts. and Keeler Portrait Red, then you have the 120 cards that we now consider a complete E90-1 set. Regards, Paul

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL

I am not certain these additional 20 cards can be explained as easy as we
have speculated here. Nevertheless, I like the way you summarized this on-
going mystery on the E90-1 set.

I sold my set at several years ago, so I am asking an important Question ?

Regarding the two Cy Young cards.....is he depicted with Boston (AL), or
Cleveland, or Boston (NL) on these cards ?

He was traded from Boston (AL) to Cleveland in 1909; and, finally traded to
Boston (NL) on July 1911. These 3 years span the time period this set was
in production.

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Posted By: Paul Kaufman

Yes, Ted, the Cy Young Portrait is a Boston card. I guess this puts a dent in the overall theory. Perhaps the two variation cards, Clarke Pitts and Keeler Portrait red were changed within the 1909 period of the first 100 cards. I guess we still have to account for Young traded to Cleveland for 1911 and Duffy named Manager for 1910. You are correct, though, that the short prints do provide much food for thought. Paul

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Posted By: Paul Kaufman

The Cy Young portrait is a Boston American League card.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL

Thanks for confirming the Cy Young portrait as Boston (AL).

I do recall that the Pitching version of Young being Cleveland.

And, I would be willing to bet that Duffy was not in the initial Series of
100 cards; but, was an added in 1910 when he became Mgr. of Chicago (AL).
And therefore, a certain short-print.

Also, I would be willing to bet that Clarke (Phila-NL) was in the first
Series of 100. Subsequently, they added his 2nd card (corrected as Pitts).
Logically, this has to be what occured. It doesn't make any sense, otherwise.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Andrew

Great looking CY....do you having his pitching pose to show us ?
Also, anymore E90-1 cards to display ?

Come you E90-1 collectors.....show-off your cards.

If I still had my set, I would display all 120 of them.

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Posted By: Bob Shannon

e90-1 Speaker - Tough Card!!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Don't stop....keep showing them.

Bob Shannon

Thanks for displaying my favorite card in this set....Tris Speaker

The Mike Mitchell is my 2nd favorite, simply because this card had an aura
of mystery surrounding it. Why do we have to pay such a high price for just
an average ballplayer of that time period. Perhaps ole Clark Griffith, his Mgr
those years, wouldn't let Mike sign on with Am. Caramel.

However, they added him to their 100 card Series, anyhow. Me thinks near the
end of their production run.

This card somewhat reminds me of the Plank card in the T206 set. It, too, has
an aura of mystery about it. And, believe it or not, in the early 1980's the Mitchell
card carried a pricetag not to much different than the T206 Plank.
Of course as the T206 set's popularity increased significantly, the difference
in $$$$ between these two cards became quite significant.

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Posted By: Paul Kaufman

Ted - your perspective is............PRICELESS.