1947 Bond Bread questions

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

OK, here we go:

AARON ROBINSON:
1947 - Played for Yankees
1948 - Played for White Sox
1949 - Played for Tigers

Who is he pictured with??

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VERN STEPHENS:
1947 - Played for St. Louis Browns
1948-49 - Played for Boston

Who is he pictured with?

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GEORGE TEBBETTS:
1947 - Started season with Detroit
1947-on - Traded to Boston midway through 1947

Who is he pictured with?

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LARRY JANSEN:
Major League Debut was April 15, 1947

Why would he be included in a 1947 set until AFTER he had done something?

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JOE GORDON:
1946 - Played for NY
1947 - Played for Cleveland

A picture of him with NY from 1946 would likely make this a 1947 set.

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BOB ELLIOTT:
1946 - Played for Pitt
1947 - Played for Boston

A picture of him with Pitt from 1946 would likely make this a 1947 set.

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ED JOOST:
Did NOT PLAY AT ALL in 1946!
1947 - Played with Philadelphia

Certainly he would not have been included in a set printed before the 1947 season.

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SHELDON JONES & BOBBY THOMSON:
They both made their Big League debuts at the VERY END of 1946.

Doubtful that they would they have been included in a pre-season 1947 set.

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NOBODY RETIRED AT THE END OF 1947.


SO...

If any of you can find some images of these cards with the players, perhaps we can solve this riddle.

AARON ROBINSON would seem to be the KEY CARD... since he switched every year!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Dennis: The 2005 "big book" lists the R346 blue tints as being from "Circa 1948-1949"...

so I think it would be too "iffy" to count as definite 1947 or 1948 cards.

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Posted By: Julie

Bread set, same year...the multui-player AND the AJackie set are BOTH sometimes called "Homoginized Bond."

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Posted By: dennis

robinson has pinstriped uniform on must be yankee, joost has a c on cap,played with cincinatti in 43,elliot i can't tell from card pic.but uni looks different than kiners

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Posted By: PASJD

Joe Gordon and Aaron Robinson appear in Yankee uniforms and Vern Stephens in St. Louis. So far, consistent with the 1947 hypothesis. EDITED TO ADD Indeed Joe Gordon would appear conclusive, a 1948 set would not possibly picture him in a Yankee uniform if he didn't play for them in 1947. EDITED TO ADD LINK SHOWING JOE GORDON:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86854&item=5176950237&rd=1

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Posted By: Wesley

I am going to post this on the B/S/T board, but since we are on the subject of these cards, does anyone have any of the thirteen 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson cards for sale? I have four and need nine of them and will pay handsomely for the other nine.

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Posted By: dennis

http://www.oldcardboard.com/d/d305/d305.asp?cardsetID=1003 does this mean cards exist w/square and rounded corners --also printing on rounded looks darker

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

It sure looks like a 1947 set to me now.

Clearly a regional issue in the New York area, however, since 75% of the baseball players in the set are from Brooklyn, Giants or Yankees... including some brand new players for those teams...

and then some stars (Musial, Williams, Kiner, Feller, etc.) from the rest of the league.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Adam is correct. There may indeed be reprints on the market (there's reprints of a lot of stuff), but I have examined square corner cards that are genuine. In particular, microscopic examination of particular cards showed that the printing was vintage. I don't have an opinion about how the cards were cut-- whether the squares were cut later from sheets or whatever. How/when the cards were cut may be the grading companies' issue or question that prevent them from grading-- you'd have to ask them about that. But, putting aside the issue of cutting, there are square cards that are legitimate.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

OK, way to go people!!

Now the only issue left for collectors to decide personally is whether or not they want any of the 1947 Homogenized Bread Jackie Robinson cards for his "rookie" cards.

PRO: There certainly aren't any 1946 cards with Jackie Robinson playing the big leagues, so these would be his first. Make sure you get a real one, however, regardless of whether the corners are round or square.

CON: They were only issued in the New York area and could not have been collected nationally. But then again, we are talking about New York City... not Two Forks, Idaho. The black and white is not nearly as attractive as the full color 1949 Leafs or Bowmans.

Like the guys said:

Collect What YOU Want To Collect!!!

(cwYOUwtc) = Always be Happy!

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Posted By: barrysloate

I would hardly call the 49 Bowman Jackie a full color card. It's a black and white photo with just a red background added. Cool card, but certainly not full color. I think the Bond Bread cards are actually done with greater clarity.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Going by memory here...

but doesn't Jackie also have that pretty Dodger blue on his hat and shirt as well??

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Posted By: barrysloate

You may be right, but it's just fake blue added on. Part of the charm of the 49 Bowmans is how crudely they were designed. I suppose you could say the same about the Leafs. Compare them with 1950 and on, and you see a big difference. When I first got into the hobby, 49 Bowman was my favorite set.

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Posted By: PASJD

Hal you must be keeping track of this in some way, on how many HOFers would you say there is a clear consensus as to what their rookie cards are versus how many there are differences of opinion?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Prior to 1950...

there are only a HANDFUL on which everyone agrees...

and those are the few whose FIRST card came out in a big national set and they have ZERO images in any prior sets (regional or die cut or premiums or exhibits or minor leagues or anything)

1893 Just So Cy Young
1939 Play Ball Ted Williams
1933 Goudey Arky Vaughn
1922 American Caramel Pie Traynor
etc.

There are a few others, of course...

but MANY guys have Zeenuts or minor league cards (that cause a lot of debate)...

and MANY have exhibits or die-cuts (that cause a lot of debate)...

and MANY have strip cards (that cause a lot of debate).

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If the definition of a rookie card includes a NATIONALLY issued set containing several different players in which the player is shown on his first BIG LEAGUE team...

then almost EVERY card prior to 1950 is going to fail to meet those criteria.

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Posted By: PASJD

Well if one forum member can write a book on boxing cards, perhaps the inspiration to write a book on rookie cards will strike you.

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Posted By: Josh

I am very familiar with these cards, both the 48 card set as well as the 13 card Robinson set. Is it possible for a card that was created using photoengraving to be counterfeited to look exactly like the card was originally printed? Originally, I did not think so, but after seeing some of the things I have seen, I actually think someone somewhere along the lines had access to advanced printing equipment (or perhaps an original printing machine capable of photoengraving), knew what they were doing, created professional plates using the same print pattern as the original, and ultimately created the suspected reprints of the 1947 set. I have examined many of these square and round corner cards, and the photoengraving looks legit under 10X on every one of them. I also believe that whoever created the counterfeits also is responsible for creating the entire 1963 Bazooka set in singles. And I also believe this person lives in Pennsylvania, and many of the cards, especially the fake Bazooka's, were introduced into the market locally around that area. Many of the sellers who are now selling them are from around that area. And I also think these cards have a direct tie with the eBay celebrity-for-a-day, paoutdoorsman.
Anyone else know anything about who created those Bazooka's? That may reveal quite a bit more about those 47 Bond Bread square corner cards.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Josh,

I am quite familiar with the person you are referring to. As far as I know he is long gone out of the business.

Greg

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Julie:

Maybe THOSE six cold have...

but put up a scan of the card showing Jackie trotting home in a huge stadium (the card used as illustration in the 2005 catalog) and let's see if people think that it could have been done then.

For all I know, they may have been able to put in a "fake" background?

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Posted By: Julie

think it looked like Yankee Stadium behiund him; the Montreal Royals didn't play in the 19th century, you know.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

True...

but I can't think of any Minor League parks TODAY that have a big upper deck with bunting.

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Posted By: PASJD

If Jackie appears in a Dodgers not a Royals uniform, including in an action photo, why would you think the pics were taken in Montreal?

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Posted By: Julie

"Los Angeles Dodgers--Jackie Robinson-Timeline" to 1946--you will see a clear picture of Jackie in a Montreal Uniform,EXACTLY like one of my cards.

I will post it as soon as my uploarding thing recovers from whatever ails it.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

........

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Posted By: Howie

Square cornered cards were known about prior to the Festberg find. They were known as W571, and described as coming with round or square corners in the mid-1970's Sports Collectors's Bible and the Stirling Sports Card Catalog D5002.

The Festberg find contained original individual square cornered cards that came directly from the bread company. There were no uncut sheets. There were no handcut cards. The only thing wrong with the cards was there was a large QUANTITY of them. They flooded the market, and sets became common and cheap.

There was never any need to reprint these because originals were plentiful and cheap. That is until the Harrisburg Grading Room Find cards surfaced in the recent years. IN HAND COMPARISON of an original card against an HGRF card shows a completely different paper stock and print quality. SCD was instrumental in alerting its readers of these, but when they changed their description in their price guide to lump the Festberg find cards in with the HGRF cards, they managed to cause unnecessary confusion with obvious fakes and original cards.

Real grading companies should be grading the original cards. This includes cards with roundish looking corners and squared cornered ones too, like the ones in the Festberg find. But they won't until SCD sets the story straight in their price guide.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My feeling is that there are more different cards and memorabilia than a collector could every buy, and the collector is picking and chosing which items to purchase. If a collector has pressing questions or concerns about a card or pin or Joe DiMaggio bat, he can chose not to purchase. Even if I disagree with the opinion about authenticity, I recognize that the collector owns the veto over what enters his personal collection. I don't own a single Homoginized Bread card, and can't say my life is lacking because of it.

I always say that, whether or not he realizes it, the collector has the ultimate weapon in that he can always chose not to purchase.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Many do not have pressing concerns or questions, because they don't realize there is a problem.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The main point to readers and lurkers is that all Bond Bread/Homoginized Bread/square corner cards that are genuine can be authenticated, and it's actually not that difficult of a process. Perhaps the main graders will start grading them down the road. I don't fault them for taking their time before grading a different issue. Better too slow than too fast.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

See, this picture WAS taken in Montreal! One of the Bond Breads, 1947!

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

They did a good job in the "Brooklyn" version of removing the stadium background, and creating "Dodgers" over the previous jersey logo.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60597&item=5182816859&rd=1

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Posted By: jackgoodman

from The Trader Speaks 8/80. I hope the scans are readable.

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Posted By: scott

Just as an update. I will be recieving my order from GAI sometime this week and will try to post pic's of the 7 i sent in. All were graded anywhere from 7 on up to a 9 I believe.
Any more relevant info would be great as i would like to start working towards completing this set.It is just that i very rarly see these come up in ex+ condition.

scott

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Posted By: Wesley

Scott, Are the cards that you are getting back from GAI the Bond Homogenized Bread with multiple players or the Bond Bread Jackie Robinson cards?



sorry.....I meant to address you Scott

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Posted By: scott

I assume that is directed at myself ? But to answer your ? the one's i have are the multi player set.

scott

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK guys, I am 66 years old and the one great feature of aging is that your
mind starts reverting back to your youth. And, believe it or not, recalling
happy events when you were 15 or 10 or even 5 years old becomes clearer as
you age. These 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread cards were the first BaseBall
cards I collected growing up in Hillside, NJ. I lived only two blocks away
from "The Scooter" Rizzuto. I mention this because obviously I was an avid
Yankee fan and was only interested in collecting the Yankee cards.

I do have the complete set (48 cards); and, the fronts of 5 Yankees
(Joe DiMag, Berra, Lindell, Keller, and Rizzuto) that are in the set are
identically derived from the 1947 Yankee Stadium Photo packs. The same goes
for the 7 Dodgers (Ebbets Field Pix) and the 7 NY Giants (Polo Grounds Pix).
Two additional Yankees (Joe Gordon and Aaron Robinson are action pictures
that were taken in spring training. At least 12 other player's pictures
reflect spring training backgrounds.

I clearly recall that I bought these Bread cards before the 1948 Bowmans were
available.

The fact that I also collected the three 1947 NY Team Photo packs and am able
to compare the pictures has me convinced that this set was issued either in
the summer, or for sure by the fall of 1947. The Johnny Lindell card in the
set, I vaguely recall trading for with a classmate while attending Greek
school in the fall of 1947. My sister would be able to confirm this and I
will inquire of her.

The Jackie Robinson Bond Bread set (13 cards) is a subset that had limited
distribution. Barry Sloate's take on this is probably pretty accurate.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hal,
As I said I have the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set of 48 cards. But,
I'm sorry I don't have a scanner or a digital camera. So, you have to take
my word that the Jackie I have is an original. Altho, this one is not of the
cards from my youthful collection, it is nevertheless, one I have had for
many years. Its corners are factory beveled, as are the other 47 cards in
my set.

And, since you seem to be a "purist" regarding true Rookie cards, consider
others that are included in this set: Yogi Berra, Joe Gordon (as a Yankee),
Ewell Blackwell, Ralph Branca, Del Ennis, Carl Furillo, Gil Hodges, Ralph
Kiner, Stan Musial, Johnny Sain, and Bobby Thomson.

Of course the overarching question is....can this set be considered a major
national issue ? I believe it is, based on my many years' conversations
with veterans in the hobby. But, I could be proven wrong in this belief.

One additional bit of info regarding the "square-corner" Reprints. There is
a definite difference in the card stock. The Reprint cards, when compared to
the original 1947 cards, have a noticeably thinner feel to them.

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Posted By: scott

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Posted By: scott

But here are the rest. What do you guy's think ? Remember these are the square corner versions. Which there was some ? about.