Moral Question

[Archive]

Posted By: Charles Moore

I've been offered a box of cards that a "fifty-some" lady says belonged to her grandfather. She came to me because she knows I collect and have some knowledge of their value. I've helped such folks market their 1950 and 60's cards without any gain. Her promise of a Ruth or two and a pile of "those little cards that use to come in cigarettes" though tempts me to simply ask what price pleases her and hope for a bargin (steal?). I welcome the board's suggestions.

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

If you offer her a price "sight unseen" that you are willing to pay ... and you are willing to stick to the deal regardless of how litte value you eventually end up getting ... then I see nothing wrong with offering a fairly low price since you are taking some serious risk as well.

On the other hand ... once you start looking at the cards and getting a true sense of their value ... then you have a dilemma when she asks you: "So what are they worth?"

I would offer her something low "sight unseen" and see what she does.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Cummings

It appears that she has come to you as a friend, thinking that you would know more about the cards' value than she would. It seems to me she is trusting that you would do "the right thing" and make your best guess as to their true worth.

Regardless of whether she actually asks you what they are worth, isn't the "morally correct" thing to do to tell her and then if you want to buy them, negotiate a fair price?

Isn't that what you'd want someone to do for you if the tables were turned?

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Part of why I am such a bad business man is that I lack the ability to screw over someone. If they come to me and say I want $xxx for my stuff and I like the price, I will jump on it. But is someone comes to me and asks me what's it worth, I tell them and then try to work out a fair deal. If the collection is worth more than I can afford, then I will try to work out a consignment deal, that way, both of us end up winners.

The thing you ahve to ask yourself is if you can look yourself in the mirror every morning knowing you screwed over a old lady that put her trust in you. Sadly, most corporate type don't seem to have this problem as witnessed by Enron, Worldcom, the S&L debacle and shady things that go on in business world all in the name of the all mighty buck.

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

Couldn't someone also say that she came to him because she knew that he collected cards and would therefore "desire" the cards more than anyone else and would therefore "pay more" than anyone else?

If she agrees to sell them KNOWING that he has never even seen the cards ... then she does so at her own risk and with KNOWLEDGE that he has NO IDEA what they are worth and that she might be getting the better end of the deal.

What is wrong with offering to buy then sight unseen?

Am I "unethical" if I offer to buy her shoebox of cards right now for $500? No.

And like I said in my first post: If she refuses to sell sight unseen and then just asks you as a friend to "value" her cards for her ... then of course it would not be "ethical" or "moral" to offer her $500 if you NOW KNOW FOR SURE that the cards are worth $50,000.

Not saying that I would offer $50,000 for them ... but I would tell her my thoughts and see if I could work out a deal with her.

But I would darn sure try and buy them cheap "sight unseen" first!

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett

I gotta agree with Kevin on this one. She is assuming you are going to HELP her, I doubt she is looking to get ripped off. She even offered to give you some compensation for helping her out, I think it would be totally (morally)wrong to send her a low-ball offer. Greed has tempted us all, doing the right think will produce outcomes far greater than getting an old ladies baseball cards for a steal. Just imagine what you would want someone to do for YOUR grandmother, then act accordingly.
-Rhett

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

What were her exact words to you?

Did she ask you to examine and value her cards?

or

Did she ask if you wanted to buy her cards for a certain price?

or

Did she say "Name your price?"

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

It's fair of you to expect to turn a profit on this, and she may expect/want you to do so. However, you should pay her a fair price.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

I add that 99 percent of these types of people way overestimate the price of their items. So she may think you are trying to rip her off when you offer a fair price.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

What were her exact words to you?

She said "I see you getting autographs (I'm a AAA season ticket holder). Do you collect cards?" I replied, "Yes, since 1954". She, "My daughter has my grandfather's cards and I'm afraid her children will destroy them or she'll sell them at a yard sale. (She then partially described the size of the box, the reference to Ruth and the cigarette insert bit). They must be worth something, would you like them?" ME: absolutely. HER: I'll bring them the next game we come to".

Kind of an open deal right now.

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

But that sounds to me like a kind old lady wanting to GIVE the cards away to someone simply because he will appreciate them and respect them!

Even more so now: I see absolutely nothing wrong with offering to pay her something for the cards BEFORE you look them over ... just out of kindness on your part.

If she says, "No, you just take them and enjoy them"...

then you take them and thank her profusely ... and hope that she is right about the Babe Ruth cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

BUT ... If she says, "No, you just take them home and see what they are worth and make me a fair offer..."

then of course that is what you do.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

As I said, you are offering her a useful service. It would unfair if you took several hours to correctly valuate and grade then off her hands these cards that she apparently doesn't want around anymore. She likely has no desire to list them individually on eBay and research individual prices in SCD. So there should be no guilt involved for making a profit off of the transaction. She'd be ripping you off, if she expected you to do this free of change or at a loss.

However, you should still pay her a resonable price.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

Halley is correct. A gift is a gift.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

I think that the "right" thing to do is to make the woman aware of the value of what she has, regardless of the circumstances. Value doesn't mean high retail, it could mean low wholesale, but it is not a small fraction of what the cards could be sold for. Offering to buy the cards sight unseen for a "low" price might free you from any future legal problems but I would not think that it is treating a trusting woman in the way that you would like someone in your family to be treated. Even if she offered the cards as a gift I think the recipient should thank the woman profusely while explaining to her the value of what she was giving and asking if, after knowing that, she still wished to be so kind.

[Archive]

Posted By: andy

i would agree that a gift is a gift. if i was to be so lucky, and someone wanted to give me something of great value...i would decline (it would make me uncomfortable), and if they insisted i would insist on some fair compensation. i'm not saying full market value, as this person appears to want a true collector to carry on her father's collection before it gets destroyed or sold for pennies on the dollar at a "yard sale". just my 2 cents.
great holiday weekend to all

[Archive]

Posted By: Ryan Christoff

It's disheartening to hear such lawyerly advice given to this "moral" question that was posted.

Yes, from a legal standpoint, Hal has given you good, sound advice.

Legally, you can get over on this lady and laugh your way to the bank, but I get the feeling that the question was posted because, deep down, the answer was already known.

I can't tell you what you should do in this situation, but I can tell you that if it were me, even if the cards were offered as a gift with no strings attached I would pay her a fair price for them. A fair price doesn't have to mean retail, although if it were something for my collection I would gladly give full retail even if she didn't have an idea of the item's worth. In this case, it seems like a fair price would be a wholesale price you were reasonably sure was the absolute least you'd get if you sold it all.

I've declined a generous offer from a board member in the past who offered to GIVE me several trimmed cards I needed from a rare set that I was trying to complete. Since I knew I would ultimately need upgrades and not truly need the trimmed cards, I declined. I would have sold or traded them later on, so how could I accept them knowing they were given in an effort to help me complete my set? I didn't feel I was the one who should profit from the cards.

They were not worthless and could have easily been sold. But just because something is offered for free, that doesn't mean it needs to be exploited.

And I disagree with David, too. It doesn't seem certain that she means to give them as a gift. She acknowledged that the cards must have some value. When she asked if he wanted them, she may have meant "Do you want to buy them?" She didn't say "Do you want them for free?"

For future reference, if I am ever selling a card and some board member contacts me about it and I say "Do you want that card?" please do not assume I am offering you the card for free. And please don't take me to court because of my "exact words." Didn't everyone learn a valuable lesson about "exact words" from all the trouble Greg got into in that one Brady Bunch episode? Let's not forget that due to his exact words, he had to take Bobby along with him on a hot date at the drive-in. It ruined his Saturday night!

I can tell you this: if someone tried to get over on my mother by hiding behind some legal cloak of it being a "gift," you can be sure that person would regret it later.

All that said, I am confident that the right thing will be done here simply by the fact that the question was posed. It shows there is some moral compass in action and I bet both parties are going to walk away happy from this transaction, if there is one.

Thanks for your post, Charles.

-Ryan Christoff

[Archive]

Posted By: Andy Baran

Any chance that you would be willing to sign in using your last name as well?

[Archive]

Posted By: andy becker

....to think i'm the only andy....sorry

[Archive]

Posted By: Andrew

Semantics

What does it matter how “exactly” she phrases the question? Suppose she said, “$100 seems fair for the lot.” But the lot turns out to be worth $10K; it still comes down to your conscience. Many factors at play as already mentioned by other posters, but I wouldn’t let the phrasing of the question guide your decision. Then you’re just justifying profiting from an unknowing seller. If that’s the aim – and there’s nothing horribly wrong with that, then just do it.

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

I certainly respect your opinion that as an attorney, I am probably too familiar with giving "legal" advice that some folks may not consider to be "moral"...

but "doing the right thing" is simply NOT the same thing as "treating this lady as if she was your mother."

First of all ... what would you say to your mother if she took your entire card collection to a baseball game and offered it to a stranger?? The fact is: You would NEVER let this happen.

But in this case, the lady OWNS the cards and clearly does NOT want to continue owning them ... and clearly does NOT want her family to continue owning them.

Wouldn't you agree that Charles did NOT "solicit" this gift in any way?

What if Charles was working at the counter of the Salvation Army when this lady brought the shoebox in to give it away for charity?

Is Charles supposed to be the "morality police" and PROHIBIT her from making a gift of kindness that she clearly wants to make???

The lady already TOLD Charles that she knows the cards have some value and contain a Babe Ruth card ... so clearly this lady knows that she is not just throwing out some trash! In fact, that is the SOLE REASON that she is seeking out someone to receive her gift who will treasure it as much as her grandfather did.

What good is giving a gift if it have no value?

Like I said: If it turns out that the lady really is trying to give the cards away for free ... then Charles should offer her something in return out of politeness ...

but I don't find it "immoral" in any way for Charles to take the box of cards if she says: "No, honey, you just take these old things and enjoy them with your grandkids."

NOTE: I do NOT sell cards for a profit, I just collect them ... so this is where my perspective comes from. In other words, I would NOT be "turning a profit" from the gift, but merely adding to my collection. If Charles were to already have a buyer lined up and is indeed only interested in acting as a middle-man for a quick buck... then I agree that he should simply put the two people together and get out of the middle.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

I think it all comes down to how informed is the owner. If she is explained that a card would sell for $1,000-$2,000 on eBay, and she still chooses to sell it to someone for $10 because he's been so nice to her , there is nothing wrong with that. If the potential buyer lies about its real value so he can get it for $50, that's another story.

[Archive]

Posted By: andy becker

i'm a collector too, but someday by you or your heirs your collection will be sold...and probably for a profit. i'm not saying to refuse something, but be able to live with yourself...in the end that's all that matters.

[Archive]

Posted By: ramram

I think most would admit that half the fun of collecting is getting a "deal". I'd ask what she wanted for them, pay her, (assuming it's reasonable) and take them home and see how you did. Figure up what low end of wholesale is and then go back to her and tell her that you made out better than you anticipated and give her a check for the balance. She'll be beside herself regarding your honesty...you'll feel good about having done the right thing...and...best of all, you can still brag to your friends about what a great deal you got on the cards!

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

If she refuses to accept anything from Charles...

and is adamant about giving him the cards for free...

what she he do?

Should he sit there and inspect his "gift" and tell her how much he thinks it is worth?

("Gee, Mrs. Wilson, thanks for the Christmas sweater! I would guess that it is worth somewhere between $75 and $100 at Macy's ... so let me pay you for it.")

Do you folks REALLY think that this lady thinks that he grandfather's old cards are not valuable??? Why else would she have saved them all these years!!

You guys all act like there is a 100% certainty that this old box of cards is worth $10,000. Yet you are the same guys who NEVER believe that any card auctioned on EBay by "an old lady who just found her grandfather's cards" is worth TWO CENTS!!!!

Are we all "morally forbidden" from now trying to get a good deal on EBay unless we e-mail the seller first and tell them what the item it really worth?

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

And I think we ALL agree that if she is NOT giving the cards away for free and she DOES ask Charles to give her an estimated value for the cards ... then he needs to be truthful in responding to her.

I just don't think people need to PAY PEOPLE for gifts. Sorry.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

I hate to discuss "moral" or "ethical", for a couple of reasons:

1. Different people and different cultures have different standards for what sort of commercial activity is ethical/moral. In some cultures I deal with every day (Eastern European, Asian and Middle Eastern), it is a given that your first number is never your real number and that negotiations continue even after that. If you don't know this and simply take the first offer, the seller/buyer doesn't think it is wrong and wouldn't give it a second thought. People raised in the Anglo-American legal/ethical/commercial system have a particular world view that the other 50% of the world population does not share.

2. Ethical and Moral lends itself to hyperbole and name-calling. Clustering the Enrons of the world with the referenced situation is just not accurate. The folks at Enron (allegedly) broke the law. They (allegedly) knew the rules and circumvented them. Here we are talking about voluntary dissemination of information and expertise, not breaking the law.

3. As far as I am concerned, professionally, there is lawful and unlawful, and the lawfulness of conduct has built into it society's collective moral/ethical judgment about what behaviors are tolerated. I think most attorneys view things about that way. Don't blame Hal for approaching the question from that standpoint. It is every bit as valid a line of reasoning as any other you can come up with as "moral" or "ethical".

Moving on to the issue, we all know that all business dealings more sophisticated than straight retail sales of mass produced goods have a component of information gamesmanship to them. Strictly speaking, every great deal we collectors have ever gotten on a card has come at the expense of the seller of that card. Hell, I picked up a $500 card at a recent show for $10 because the seller did not realize what he had, and I wasn't about to tell him. I simply do not believe that there is a duty incumbent on someone with a particular expertise to share that expertise with someone on the opposite side of the table in a negotiation. So, would I voluntarily show the old lady what the cards are worth? Probably not. I would try to get them for as little as I could, without lying to her (that is fraudulent conduct).

Now, applying that to the real world, as I have often had to do as a dealer/collector, if someone came to me and said in essence "here are these cards, what will you give me for them?" I would ask myself "Who is this person? Is what I could make from this deal worth it to me to lose this person as a friend/contact if they find out I paid them a pittance for this collection?"

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie Vognar

the little old lady (numerous years younger than I!) came to him because he had a "knowledge of the value" of cards, and had helped many poeople dispose of their '50s and 60s cards AT NO PROFIT. So she trusts him. Moreover, she has offerered him "a Babe Ruth card and a stack of"--something like T206s-- in REWARD for an APPRAISAL. That's all perfectly clear!

Now get to it!

This is not a dealer at a show who has foolishly put a rare card out for sale at a fraction of its price; this is someone who has asked for your help, and offered to reward you for it.

So do it!

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett

I couldn't have said it better Julie. It seems wierd to me, Hal, if she wanted to GIVE the cards to him then why is she offering him a reward for helping her out? That doesn't fly. I think Julie is thinking on the right path here. Help the lady out, accept the gift for helping her. If in the end you get a good deal on the cards because she worked out something with you, that is great. To lowball an old lady is just a little to low in my book. Maybe I would have a better collection, but it is not something I would ever do. A card dealer set up at a show with $10 on a $500 item is a completely different story. This is of coarse just my opinion, and obviously there are many here who seem to disagree with me.
-Rhett Yeakley

[Archive]

Posted By: steve k

Charles - the answer is clear and simple...you obviously have a good reputation but are tempted by the situation. Ignore the temptation and do exactly what she requested. You are still going to come out of this with a Ruth card and some other nice cards, possibly more, and with your reputation and conscience intact. Don't even think about doing this any other way. The choice is yours but doing this some other way could windup getting you nothing and causing yourself harm.

[Archive]

Posted By: HalleyGator

You folks need to read further down the post where Charles (posting as "Anonymous" - Bbfan454) explains EXACTLY what conversation passed between the lady and him.

1) She did NOT come up to him because she knew that he was a baseball card expert!! He says she noticed him getting autographs at a minor league baseball game, and asked him OUT OF THE BLUE if he collected cards.

2) She did NOT offer to give him a "Ruth and some tobacco cards" for APPRAISING her cards. She was simply promising him that her card collection CONTAINED a Ruth card and some tobacco cards. In other words, she was simply trying to TEMPT HIM into being interested.

FACE IT: If someone sent you an e-mail out of the blue and said she had some cards from her grandfather that contained some Ruth cards and she wanted to know if you wanted them ... you would either think she was a FRAUD or you would say: "Yes, how much are you asking?"

If she responded: "I just want you to have them because I know that you will appreciate them," and you REFUSED to take them off her hands because they MIGHT have some value...

then you have confused "morality" with something else.

***This will obviously clear itself up on its own. The lady will bring the cards, and Charles will ask her how much she wants for them. She will either GIVE them to him for NOTHING (in which case he has every right to take them), or she will ask him to value them and give her a fair price (which he should do honestly and fairly - but still try to get enough of a deal to justify the purchase).

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike McGrail

Charles,

It appears to me that since you took the time to ask for input on this that your heart is the right place. Do what your heart tells you is right and you'll have no regret.

Mike

[Archive]

Posted By: John Dickson

Just the fact that you posted the question tells me that you will do the right thing by the lady and yourself, but regardless of how you negotiate the transaction, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE...tell us what is in the box! The suspense is killing me. Thanks

[Archive]

Posted By: 823dek

Be greatful that one would offer you these regardless what the cards may bring. Remember that though she may not want them , think of overall family sentiment in her father's honor.

Try not to think like some that you should be rewarded for just appraising these cards ,while instead you should have fun and excitement just to see what hides inside that box.

Whatever you decide to do....you'll make the right decision and never have to look over your shoulder.
Dan Koteles

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

.......

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

We all dream about finding that big FIND of cards. For some of us it's T-cards for others it might be Goudey's or N-cards.

You somehow stumble upon a large "find" of cards and it's too good to be true. You know that every card is real and every card is absolutely MINT. There are MINT Ruth Goudey's and Sporting News cards along with a few E90 cards of Jackson. You look further to find an Anson in uniform N172 along with a few other unknown poses. And this is only the first of 10 boxes. You then look at the little old lady that says "so, what are these worth?" In reality these cards are worth over a million dollars and the little old lady whose husband just passed away asks you "how much are these worth?" What are you going to do, steal them for a few grand?

In any case, the dilemma becomes whether we listen to our conscience or whether we listen to the little guy on the shoulder saying "go ahead, nobody will know."

Most of us probably don't have enough money to do the right thing so the question becomes "what do we do?"

We're all basically good and honest people and we know what we'd do in our heads, but given the situation could we resist temptation?

[Archive]

Posted By: Charley

Suspense is over. I have no idea how this lady developed her fable, but all she had was about 3,000 late 1980s and early 1990s commons. Though disappointed, I was polite, tried to explain what she had, and recommended either letting the grand kids enjoy them or the daughter to try to sell them at her yard sales. The best I can figure, the daughter's father-in-law must have given the cards to the kids. Maybe she knew just enough to let her imagination tell her they could be something special. There were some of the 1990 reprints of "All time greats" and though I didn't see it, there could have been a Ruth card of some sort. Sorry for taking the boards' time though in a way it did become an interesting thread and for me a useful self examination.

By the way, had they truly been old cards, I had rationalized that a reasonable solution would have been to take the cards on consignment. I convinced myself that I could sell them for more than most dealers might offer her, and my commission would be some nice cards. Oh, well!

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

If I only had a T206 card for every time someone told may they had a bunch of old cards with players like Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle, Ty Cobb and so on and so on. I regularly run ads in the local newspaper buying cards and you would not believe the number of times I have gone halfway around the state to look at junk. Oh well. Sorry for the disappointment Charles. I am sure all the board members can relate.

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

the little old lady reads the Vintage Baseball card Forum? Guess not...

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Julie, you are the token female on the board. We secretly ban all other women. I'm not sure us guys could handle any more esrtogen around here :-p

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie Vognar

Speaking of "Hee," where's Runscott?

I don't know any women who collect baseball cards, either! Very annoying discovery.

Actually, I met one once, at an As game; we were both looking at the baseball cards for sale, and the whole incident seemed so natural, i didn't even bother to get her name and phone number. The card seller was away for a few minutes, and we were looking at all the brand new cards--which appartently weren't selling very well. We started talking about what he needed to spice up his wares--some Eckerslys, some Fingers, some R Jacksons, some McGwires, maybe some Bonds as well. Later Catfishes. When he came back, we told him; he said it wasn't "worth the investment." We each went back to the game.

He's gonna whup you...

[Archive]

Posted By: t-206collector

I still don't get what she meant by "those little cards that use to come in cigarettes" if all she had was 1990 Donruss cards...

[Archive]

Posted By: Charles E. Moore

Beats me, she had nothing but standard sized cards except for some "fold-outs" or "stand-ups" which I was not familar with. Only noticed them because one was a McGwire. I can only assume that she knew enough to associate cigarette cards with value??? Bless her, I think she had high hopes also.

[Archive]

Posted By: Halleygator

It looks like what holds true on EBay also holds true in real life:

When someone promises something that is too good to be true ... it is always a sure sign of trouble.

Now I have a follow-up question for the "moral police" ...

If Charles had offered to but the whole box from her "sight unseen" for $100 based upon her promises of "Ruth and cigarette cards"... would he then be justified in demanding his money back when he examined the cards and found nother older than 1990??

Probably NOT ... since he was trying to "get a deal" in the first place and took a known risk.

THIS is why Charles had every right to try and buy the whole box for cheap in the first place ... because you have to drill a lot of empty wells before you ever strike oil ... and you lose money every time you try.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

As most of you know, I was faced with this dilema just a few weeks ago...I was just myself in the transaction. I told the gentleman I was a collector, not a dealer and that the cards would remain with me. We talked about baseball, autographs, teaching, Pittsburgh, etc. I told him how much I could afford and that it was a fraction of what it was worth. He accepted.

I feel that since she approached him, it is up to him to give her a fair estimate, then offer her what he is willing to spend. She can always say, "no thank you." I hate dealers who are not up front and try to "deal" them a super low figure. If the gentleman I purchased the Playballs from had said, sorry, I think that I could get more from a dealer, I would have said, thanks for letting me look and leave it at that. Come to think of that, I did that with a t-206 Johnson portrait (ex-)not all that long ago...I offered $100 cash at a show for the card and the person turned it down. Do I feel bad, nope...I told him what it was worth to me and that it was probably worth more to a dealer. Oh well.

If you are honest with her and tell her upfront, you might get a great deal (probably at least a good deal). My advice, just be yourself.

-Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: steve k

Halleygator - regarding your "moral police" comment. While throughout the thread you have succinctly commented on the basics of the free market enterprise system, I'm not sure that you fully grasp what the "moral police" were expressing. Possibly this thread took a slightly different spin based on some misinterpretation, myself included, of the situation. Charles did first post an "anonymous" reply to his own thread - I had never seen that done before, so the answer was initially passed over. But in my view, the "moral police" are saying that taking advantage of an innocent little old lady is just a step above taking candy from a baby - that is not what the free market enterprise system should be about. My feeling is that taking advantage of an innocent little old lady is very, very, very close to the definition of stealing. There should be more "moral police" in this world whose instincts are good and as Charles pointed out, he was going to take the cards on a consignment basis, which seemed like a good solution for everybody.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pcelli60

Remember- the good Lord is watching even T206 collectors.