Need Help Identifying a Card

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

I won this card recently at an eBay auction. The seller described it thus:

Christy Mathewson -- Pinkerton Type Photo Postcard.
Similar to T5 Pinkerton but not mounted on cabinet back. Reverse is blank. It measures 84mm x 139mm. I understand these might have been made a little later than the original Pinkertons, possibly around 1918. This card is numbered 251.

I was going to try to get a scan of it on here, but I don't even see that option on here anymore. The acution maybe up a little longer, here is the link.

Does anyone here have any idea what this really is? I have done some research, but I can't come up with the actual card or issue. I'm quite curious. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1867557843&rd=1

-dan

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Dan-

Realizing that this card is mounted now, if it has a scorecard back, it's a W530 Pinkerton Post Card. There was a Cobb from this series up on eBay recently.

There are also T5-like cards with blank backs that have no ACC designation. They're generally thought to have been issued in the 1915-1918 time period. I had one of Hoblitzell that showed him in a Cincinnati uniform but with a Red Sox designation at the bottom (he changed teams in 1914). I doubt that these were intended to be used as post cards, as they're printed on flimsy paper and blank-backed.

Bill

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Posted By: David

Bill's on the money. The images are reprints of the T5 photographs. I saw one postmarked 1915 once. They are sometimes blank backed, and sometimes with generic scorecards on the back.

Though they are not popular, and nowhere nearing the value of the T5 Pinkerton Cabinet Cards, they are legintimate, vintage and scarce. I don't think I've ever seen a Mathewson example before.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

It may look like it's mounted in the auction scan, but it is not. I think the seller laid it upon a piece of colored paper so the edges would show up better on the scan in contrast.

The card is not as thick as a post card, but would mail fairly well...but it is more stiff than it is flimsy.

It must be somewhat scarce as I have not seen one before. But, I am extremely curious about its origin. It is numbered 251. But, there is nothing on the blank back.

The paper/printing even smells old. (if that matters)

-dan

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

These postcards (?) have the same numbering as the T5's - Christy M. is 251 in both. Whoever made the postcards just took the same images and printed them as is (was). A few have appeared on eBay recently - Cobb, Doyle, and a couple of others.

They're uncatalogued and are mentioned just briefly in the T5 section of the SCD guides, so there's no price guide to go by. I meant to mention in my last post that Frank Ward has images of 2 (Wagner and Zimmerman) on his website at http://hometown.aol.com/kealoha707/1887-1919.html. Both have sold, apparently.

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Posted By: fkw

I had always thought these Pinkerton Photo postcard/scorecard cards to be issued later than the 1912 T5's, but I just recently picked up one of King Cole #203 (blank back) that was used as a postcard, and has an Aug.11, 1913 postmark on back. So Im sure these cards were issued far earlier than the late teens. They were most likely issued over a few year span. Hope that helps a little. If anyone wants a scan of it let me know. Frank

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Posted By: fkw

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

That is a great scan, Frank.

This is really interesting...Lemke's Catalog even says that the 1911 Pinkerton T5's vary in size and type of mount. (Some were mounted on cardboard backing, some had less substantial backing). The card I have here is the measured size of the 1911 T5 description, with a somewhat less substantial backing (but still pretty stiff-backed), and looks exactly like the card shown in the Lemke/SCD Catalog in every respect.

If yours showed a 1913 mailing stamp, and has those characteristics (which it appears to have), I would imagine it is likely from this Pinkerton issue also. Certainly it is not one of the later late-teens prints.

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Posted By: David

Unless I have been mistold, the real T5s are real photo, while the others are photoengraving prints (dots in the image under magnification). The T5s appear with photographs pasted to substantial and lesser mounts. In some cases the photographs without any backing appears on the market. These are more valuable than the photoengravings, though less valuable than the mounted T5s.

I suspect that the Pinkerton postcards and scorecards are different issues-- either issued at differernt times by the same printer or, more likely, issued by different printers. It would simply be a case of different issues uusing the same images (ala T206s and caramel cards). I had two of the Pinkerton postcards, and both were on very hefty cardstock.

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Posted By: David

The last sentence of my last post should read 'scorecard' not 'postcard.'

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...go back in time and tell everyone to PUT YOUR NAME on WHATEVER YOU MAKE.

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Posted By: fkw

I have owned a half dozen of these type of T5 Photo Scorecards/Postcards. All Ive owned were on normal postcard stock thickness, postcard sized, and printed with the tiny dots like David described (not a real photo like the true T5 cabinets). I have seen some similar cards at auction where they were described a the photo portion of the T5 cabinets (no backing), but have never seen one in person. I picked up the King Cole postcard just because of the early postmark knowing there might be some interest in knowing they were printed almost the same time the real T5s were issued. Always leaning something new, thats why I love the vintage stuff! Frank

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

Tell us what you think they are worth? You must have a feel for that considering your the only guy around here who is seemingly had several to consider the value of! thanks

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Posted By: fkw

Hi Brian, I think Bob Lemke's value in the SCD Guide (page 301) is about right for the scorecard back (commons $250 NRMT Wagner $800 NRMT). I would think the blank backed ones should be a little less, they seem more common. Id say about $150 NRMT is about right for a common player.... similar in value to some of the postcards of the time. Frank