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  #11  
Old 11-28-2017, 08:25 AM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
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Interesting concept, but in the end, not a great idea.

Imagine you are the family of Pee Wee Reese, and you get the call (or email) that he's now OUT of the HOF. Pretty upsetting, deflating, and jarring.

I am all for a (very) tight door for HOF entry, should be the best of the best...but you cannot take out people that are already inducted.

Last edited by MVSNYC; 11-28-2017 at 08:26 AM.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2017, 08:30 AM
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darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
What if there was only room on the wall for a certain number (100, 150, 200, ???) plagues?

150, man that's a lot of Plagues. The Egyptians were only visited with, like, 7, right?

OK, now I'll actually read the post, just had to get that out of the way.
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Interesting idea, but I think the idea of de-selecting makes the hall less of an honor which probably runs contrary to your goal.

My big hall idea has been posted here before, with all the debate about steroids and even the dumb debate about unanimous selections there a simple method which honors the current system while alleviating some of these issues. Every voter can score a candidate from 0 to 10. to be elected you have to receive 75% of the total points available. For instance if there are 200 voters you need 1500 points for enshrinement.

To me this is a great solution for the problems mentioned above.

Example 1: you are a voter who hates the steroid era, but really there's no denying that Bonds was a likely HOF'er before he ever touched the stuff, Give him 7 points. You're saying that you have reservations without torpedoing him completely and there will likely be enough 8's, 9's and 10's to get a deserving candidate over the hump.

Example 2: Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron weren't unanimous so by God nobody will be on your watch. Instead of being left in the indefensible position of leaving Greg Maddux off your ballot entirely (really?) maybe you say, "Hey he's an obvious HOF'er, and the greatest pitcher of his era, but he's no Cy Young or Walter Johnson." Score him a 9 and voila he's not a perfect score but you aren't left looking like a jackass for leaving him off your ballot merely to ensure he doesn't score a unanimous induction.

It adds a layer of bragging rights for high scores, but makes a perfect score practically impossible, and defensibly so, while still retaining the flavor of the 75% threshold. It also makes shifts in perception more logical and incremental than a binary Yes/No system. Never understand how a guy gradually gains votes for 15 (now 10) years. What did he have a good season? But with this scoring method, lets say you go back and revisit Bert Blyleven, and realize you didn't know how much better than the average schmoe he was until you started looking at the advanced stats. So you upgrade him from a 6 to a 7 or 8. even though that is in essence switching from a No, to a Maybe or a Yes, it's a smaller leap than just flipping the switch.
That leaves the decision power primarily in the hands of those who choose to cast 0s and 10s, and it wouldn't take long for the voters to realize that and for the yes/no system to be replaced, de facto, by a 0 and 10 (not 0 to 10) system.
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  #13  
Old 11-28-2017, 08:38 AM
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frankbmd frankbmd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
Interesting concept, but in the end, not a great idea.

Imagine you are the family of Pee Wee Reese, and you get the call (or email) that he's now OUT of the HOF. Pretty upsetting, deflating, and jarring.

I am all for a (very) tight door for HOF entry, should be the best of the best...but you cannot take out people that are already inducted.
I fully understand that the concept of deselection is not popular, but........

if that possibility was understood before any voting took place, it could be presented in a palatable manner.

Being in the lower hall (outer circle) would still be an honor, but passing through to the hall of immortality (inner circle) would be yet a greater honor.

This is all fantasy and applying anything said here to current members of the hall and their families is a little off base, so to speak. I have nothing against Pee Wee and all his little Pee Wees.

However if Derek Jeter and his family knew before the vote for his induction to the hall, what the new rules were and that either deselection or immortality could be a consequence of his induction, I think it could fly.
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2017, 08:47 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
That leaves the decision power primarily in the hands of those who choose to cast 0s and 10s, and it wouldn't take long for the voters to realize that and for the yes/no system to be replaced, de facto, by a 0 and 10 (not 0 to 10) system.
Also why results should be public, so there's some accountability for stupid votes. Obviously it's easier to defend a binary vote "no" than it is scoring a borderline player a "1"
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  #15  
Old 11-28-2017, 08:48 AM
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You're either a Hall of Famer or you're not. Plain and simple. Once you're in, you're in for good. There's a reason why there are committees for different eras - the game has changed and evolved over the years. Walter Johnson only through about 80-90 mph, and would most likely get crushed in today's game.
Walter Johnson threw a lot harder than 90 mph. His fastball was clocked at 97 mph. The game has changed, but players really haven't evolved, training and equipment have evolved.
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  #16  
Old 11-28-2017, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
Also why results should be public, so there's some accountability for stupid votes. Obviously it's easier to defend a binary vote "no" than it is scoring a borderline player a "1"
I can't help but hold the conflicting views that the Hall is too bloated but I want Garvey and J.R. Richard in.

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  #17  
Old 11-28-2017, 09:06 AM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
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Frank, not feelin' it. Sorry.

If someone is taken out, or deselected, as you say, it will ruin the idea of legacy and immortality. If a player is deselected, future generations will not know about them, thus the history and romance of the game will be lost.
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2017, 10:42 AM
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If I were rebuilding from scratch, I would organize the plaques by era and have two levels of enshrinement.

Example: For dead ball era, the Immortals would include Cobb, Wagner, Mathewson, etc. Then the Stars of the Era would include Baker, Tinker, etc.

This would create a place for the Cooperstown fence-sitters (Garvey, Whitaker, Murphy as Stars of the 70s and 80s), a way to demote some bad HOF selections (Slaughter, Grimes, Selig) without throwing away the plaque, and I suppose even create a path for Rose, Clemens, Shoeless Joe, and other scandal-tainted players.

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I definitely think there should be tiers of enshrinement in the HOF. Tier 1 would be your legends or immortals as you put it, Tier 2 would be all other players, and Tier 3 would be contributors .... managers, front office, etc.

Ty Cobb and Ozzie Smith being equals is a joke. Writers should vote on enshrinement, and if inducted, a separate vote cast for tier (where applicable), which some set in stone criteria that would be required for eligibility to Tier 1. WAR, black ink, awards, etc.

As far as Pete Rose goes, the HOF has no obligation not to put him on a ballot. They choose not to. The HOF is not under the control of MLB. His ban from baseball actually has no direct implication on his HOF enshrinement.
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  #19  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:56 PM
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My idea would be that I, and I alone, would decide who should be and will be enshrined in the Hall. You guys can have it from there once I’m outa here (Disguarded my body if you’re a Sientologist). There would be a few less in the Hall right now if I did the pickin’ (not that they weren’t “very good”).

I’m not crazy about the first idea from the OP. As many have commented it wouldn’t be good to be booted once in (unless I was doing the reduction). I wouldn’t be altogether opposed to the Tier concept though. My problem is that we now have these advanced metrics that now tell us how good, or important, a player used to be. Like a human can’t tell who was a more valuable player on a specific team. Not that stats aren’t important, but they are not the be all end all when it comes to players. Love how some players keep getting better, or some worse, over the years. I even learned, from this very thread, that Walter Johnson “would most likely get crushed in today’s game”. Learn new stuff all the time...
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  #20  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:12 PM
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Let's take it easy on Walter. After all, he just turned 130 this month.
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