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  #11  
Old 11-29-2017, 11:40 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is online now
T0m C@rf@gn0
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Yes of course. Nothing says freedom and apple pie quite like a good old fashioned oligopoly.

Tom C
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2017, 12:10 AM
George George is offline
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Default Right About One Thing

I agree with you about Bud Selig; he does not belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame, either. But I do not care for the argument that X is in the Hall of Fame, and therefore we must also admit Y. Should every infielder who was better than Rabbit Maranville be in the Hall of Fame?

Another outstanding contribution to baseball from Marvin Miller was leading the players to go out on three strikes. In baseball, three strikes means that you are out.

You may get your wish. If Effa Manley is in the Hall of Fame, why not Marvin Miller? If he does get in, I hope they find a special place for his plaque.
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2017, 12:20 AM
Kenny Cole Kenny Cole is offline
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I actually think my metaphor comparing Marvin Miller's potential Hall of Fame plaque to a statue of John Wilkes Booth is quite reasonable, although we do understand that Marvin Miller has not actually killed anyone. And (to paraphrase Casey Stengel) I'll tell you why. Marvin Miller was a very capable union leader, and his efforts provided a huge financial windfall for his employers, which were the players. However, as is often the case with a strong union, comparable benefits did not accrue to the management (the owners) or the customers (the fans). Marvin Miller's legacy has given us, among other things, players with enormous salaries, directly resulting in higher costs to the fans. Another fallout from the powerful player's union has been their powerful opposition to drug testing, which led to the debacle of Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds. And now, in the aftermath of this painful kick in the shins, you expect us to go to the Hall of Fame and fawn over the plaque of the person who caused this? I think this would be an affront to those of us who enjoyed baseball when it was truly our national pastime.

It is true that the activities of Marvin Miller have had a significant impact on the game of baseball........but not a helpful impact, from the point of view of the fans. If Marvin Miller deserves a plaque, it should be in the Labor Union Hall of Fame (if there is one), along with those of Jimmy Hoffa, Mike Quill and John L. Lewis.

If I ever get a Marvin Miller baseball card, I will be sure to attach it to the spokes of my grandson's bicycle, so that it will be put to good use.
What complete horsesh-t. Before Marvin Miller, players were essentially slaves to the owners' whims due to the reserve clause. He led them in their quest for freedom, which was a quest that had been ongoing since at least the 1890's. I have no problem with that quest, because I think that in this nation you should have the right to negotiate the value of your services instead of receiving only whatever your employer thinks you are worth without even having the ability to go elsewhere and try to do better. In almost any other industry that has ever existed in this country, if you disagreed with your employers's assessment of your value, you were free to leave and go somewhere where you thought your services would be valued more highly. Not so with the robber barons who ruled baseball for a century due to the reserve clause. Their greed caused their own demise insofar as player salaries are concerned. That was the owners' fault, not the fault of those who they were repeatedly trying to screw.

Did Marvin Miller's efforts raise players' salaries? Absolutely. As they were intended to and should have. Did the owners pass that on to the fans? Yep, owners have never, and probably will never, eat any expense they think they can make the fans eat. Did they have to do that? Probably not, at least not now, since most of them are making a complete killing on collateral stuff like TV contracts, advertising, parking concessions, food concessions, etc. Would the ticket price increases have happened anyway? Almost certainly so, although perhaps not so quickly. The fact that you have to pay highly for highly talented people in any profession or occupation is just a given. Doctors, lawyers, actors, musicians, etc. If it were not that way, why would anyone ever try to strive at excelling at whatever they do?

I get it that the players are now rich too. At least some of them have now become exactly what I hate, albeit on a somewhat lesser level. In any event, suffice it to say that while my heart does not go out to the players' complaints anymore, I am still far more tone deaf to the owners' pleas for sympathy for their allegedly sad plight. Having a billionaire explain why he has to raise ticket prices again in order to maintain his standard of living is, IMO, the epitome of bullsh-t.

Along with Jackie Robinson, Marvin Miller was, IMO, probably one of THE TWO most influential people in baseball since at least the beginning of the 20th century. He will probably never be elected to the HOF because the owners all hate him (and because he asked for that not to happen posthumously), but that certainly doesn't change his impact on the game.
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:30 AM
bxb bxb is offline
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So to get back to Ken's opening comment, no one knows of any Marvin Miller cards issued during his active years, right?
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:14 AM
George George is offline
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Default The Great Marvin Miller

Marvin Miller took over as the Executive Director of the MLPBA in 1966. Prior to this time, as far as I am aware, there had been only one strike in the history of major league baseball. That occurred on May 18, 1912, when the Detroit Tigers refused to take the field to protest the suspension of Ty Cobb, who had gone into the stands to attack an abusive fan. Miller, a professional labor union activist, soon put an end to this long reign of peace by engineering his first strike during the season of 1972, in which 86 games were canceled. This worked so well that he tried another one in 1981, which was even more successful, with 713 games not played. By 1994 Marvin Miller had retired, and his protege, Donald Fehr, was in charge. Fehr gave us the greatest strike of all time, running from August of 1994 until April of 1995, including the 1994 World Series, which was canceled. To make it even better, many people believe that a direct result of this action was the demise of the Montreal Expos franchise, which had been leading the National League at the time that the 1994 season was suspended, leaving their fans so disappointed and disillusioned that they never recovered. Fehr, of course, could not take full credit for this glorious victory, since he could not have done it without the trailblazing leadership of the great Marvin Miller. The net result of these successful machinations was an enormous increase in the salaries of the players, to levels that were previously unimaginable.

I think that baseball fans like to see competition on the field, between the best players in the world. And it goes without saying (or, at least, it used to go without saying), that they like to do this at an affordable cost. If Marvin Miller contributed in any way to these admirable goals, I must be missing something.
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:28 AM
George George is offline
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Default Marvin Miller Card

I am trying to visualize a 10 year old kid in 1982, buying a pack of baseball cards and opening it, hoping that it will contain a Marvin Miller card.

I wonder what the stats on the back would include.

I remember, in 1956, getting the cards of William Harridge and Warren Giles. That was bad enough.
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:55 AM
scott6649 scott6649 is offline
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What I gather is that you're saying a ticket to a ballgame should cost 5 dollars and a hot dog should cost 50 cents. The reserve clause should still exist and players should play for whatever the owners see fit to pay them. Am I close?
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2017, 11:40 AM
Huysmans Huysmans is offline
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Originally Posted by scott6649 View Post


What I gather is that you're saying a ticket to a ballgame should cost 5 dollars and a hot dog should cost 50 cents. The reserve clause should still exist and players should play for whatever the owners see fit to pay them. Am I close?
AND THE WINNER FOR THE MOST RIDICULOUS NET54 HYPERBOLE IS...

You forgot to mention that the players should all be tethered together at all times, with express written permission from the owners needed to go to the washroom or to breathe.
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2017, 11:49 AM
George George is offline
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Default Not Close

No. Some people, including Bud Selig, advocate electing Marvin Miller to the Baseball Hall of Fame because he "had an impact." I am trying to understand why anyone, particularly a baseball fan, would like to honor an individual whose activities were totally counterproductive to their best interests.

Instead of simply "having an impact," I think the criteria for election should include something like "having a helpful impact," or "having a desireable impact." If having an impact is the only thing that matters, why not elect Tony Bosch from Biogenesis?

Did you enjoy the strike in 1994? As I recall, most of the players did not even know what the goal was. Thanks again, Marvin Miller.
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  #20  
Old 11-30-2017, 12:13 PM
scott6649 scott6649 is offline
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Are you a fan of the current state of the NFL, where the players get very little guaranteed money and receive less than 50% of the total revenue? I don't see where anybody could be upset by a concept in which the people who make the head guy extraordinarily rich are compensated in a proportional manner. Especially in such a specialized business as baseball where top flight ballplayers don't grow on trees.
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