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  #11  
Old 11-27-2017, 12:14 PM
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He was certainly good, but 6500 at bats isn't much for a hall of famer. The HOFers with that few at bats are mostly guys with other things going for them: Jackie Robinson, Ross Youngs (who probably doesn't belong anyway), guys like that. Joe Gordon had fewer, but at his best he was better than Doyle, and he also missed time in the war. Doyle's MVP probably also wasn't deserved. WAR likes Wagner's season, I think I'd give it to Heine Zimmerman. Triple crown winner who also led the league in hits, doubles, slugging percentage, and total bases.
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  #12  
Old 11-27-2017, 01:56 PM
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I know WAR and other advanced stats are supposed to eliminate the discussions of "in their day" but that discussion is no more apt than when discussing Doyle. Can anyone name one NL second baseman who had a better career than Larry Doyle at the time that his career was complete? I don't think you can. So while Doyle might have stats comparable to Travis Jackson, no one had stats comparable to Doyle while he was on the field. That says something to me.
Sure...in the AL. Nap Lajoie and Eddie Collins both had careers that overlapped the majority of Doyle's. While Doyle had a very nice career, his numbers were not on the same level as these two HOFers. Their stats were more than comparable to Doyle's, they were superior. I still think Doyle was a heck of a ballplayer though.

Your point about the NL is a good one. I'm not sure there was anyone as good as him at 2B in the NL at the time he played. However, I think there were some who played 2B in the NL before his time that were as good as Doyle. This include Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson, and Bobby Lowe.

Last edited by OldOriole; 11-27-2017 at 01:59 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2017, 02:15 PM
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Curious as to what metric you're using for Bobby Lowe being better than Larry Doyle. Lowe never led a single offensive category int he leagues he played in. His WAR is also half of Doyle's. I'm also not seeing Hardy Richardson being better than Doyle either. Doyle played more than three times as many games at second base than Richardson did.

Bid McPhee would be the closest but he spent 8 season in the American Association and his stats are a combination of a career spent in 2 leagues. It has always irked me that McPhee was able to get inducted but Stovey has not been able to, with the chief knock on Stovey being that he played in the AA.

Last edited by packs; 11-27-2017 at 02:21 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2017, 03:21 PM
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I've always thought he was a HOFer. He was the best second basemen in his league for pretty much his entire career. When you're the best player at your position for your generation, I don't see why that wouldn't merit a HOF induction.
No, you could argue he was the best at his position from 1909-1915, maybe. From 1916 on Rogers Hornsby was the best. In the other league Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie were the best and all 3 are light years ahead of Doyle. Even Johnny Evers has a higher WAR and WAR7 and many don't think he belongs in the HOF. In 3 Hof ballots he received 4, 2 and 1 vote. Hall of Good not Hall of Fame.
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2017, 03:58 PM
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Larry Doyle keeps me active because he signed so many pre-war cards. I'd vote for him for this reason alone!

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  #16  
Old 11-27-2017, 04:11 PM
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Surprised nobody mentioned his awesome nickname "Laughing" Larry Doyle. Apparently he had so much fun and was so good-natured that he got that nickname. Again I'm not saying he belongs, but a guy like him was often put in by his peers on an Old-Timer ballot because he was so popular.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2017, 04:45 PM
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No, you could argue he was the best at his position from 1909-1915, maybe. From 1916 on Rogers Hornsby was the best. In the other league Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie were the best and all 3 are light years ahead of Doyle. Even Johnny Evers has a higher WAR and WAR7 and many don't think he belongs in the HOF. In 3 Hof ballots he received 4, 2 and 1 vote. Hall of Good not Hall of Fame.
I have no explanation for Evers' WAR but he was not a better player than Doyle. Doyle's OPS is 765, Evers is 690. Pretty big drop. Batting average for Doyle is much higher at 290 than Evers at 270. Doyle has more hits and better power numbers overall too in less seasons. Doyle slugs 70 points higher too.

I absolutely think Hornsby was infinitely better than Doyle, but I don't see how you can discount Doyle's entire career when he and Hornsby overlap for only 4 or so seasons.

Last edited by packs; 11-27-2017 at 04:45 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2017, 04:55 PM
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I have no explanation for Evers' WAR but he was not a better player than Doyle. Doyle's OPS is 765, Evers is 690. Pretty big drop. Batting average for Doyle is much higher at 290 than Evers at 270. Doyle has more hits and better power numbers overall too in less seasons. Doyle slugs 70 points higher too.

I absolutely think Hornsby was infinitely better than Doyle, but I don't see how you can discount Doyle's entire career when he and Hornsby overlap for only 4 or so seasons.
It is called defense. Evers was the best defensive 2nd baseman of the dead ball era. Doyle was bad, had a negative dWAR. I guess the only thing you care about is offense. I think defense is very important, especially for a middle infielder. Evers was better, in my opinion.
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2017, 05:10 PM
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It is called defense. Evers was the best defensive 2nd baseman of the dead ball era. Doyle was bad, had a negative dWAR. I guess the only thing you care about is offense. I think defense is very important, especially for a middle infielder. Evers was better, in my opinion.
dWAR isn't really a useful stat. It's not that I don't care about defense, it's that I don't care about dWAR. Mattingly's dWAR is -6.8 for his career. He won 9 Gold Gloves.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2017, 06:39 PM
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Default Objective vs. Subjective

Gold glove awards are extremely subjective. Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 when he only played 28 games at first base and DH'ed the rest. Much like the MVP and All-Star voting, these results are often based on reputation and popularity rather than objective data.
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