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  #21  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bbcard1 View Post
I am not implying Traynor is an egregious selection for the hall...he's not at all. Best of all time, even in 1976? That's probably a stretch. He may not make the top ten now, certainly not the top 5 which is something no other player on that 1976 Topps All Time team would say (you can argue Cochrane, but he is one of a cluster of catchers, though Bench or Campy would be my pick). We have had a good run of quality third basemen in the last 40 or so years and are in the midst of quite probably the best crop of third sackers ever top to bottom (Bryant, Arenado, Donaldson, Machado, Beltre, Seager, Turner, Ramirez, Rendon, plus others like Longoria, Lamb, Bregman, Castellanos, Frazier etc.). Interesting times.
It was Sporting News list. Even in 1999, they still had Traynor highly rated. #70 all time (Cochrane was #65) and the 4th best 3rd baseman behind Schmidt, Brett and Mathews with Brooks and Boggs below, but ranked.
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  #22  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
I recently sold a Pie Traynor side written game used bat. This is all the more rare because Traynor is infamous for never ordering bats of his own, instead he constantly "borrowed" bats from others. He bragged about never placing a bat order of his own over like the last 15 years of his career or something like that. So a sidewritten bat with his name is one of the only ones that can 100% be linked to him.

Also, and I say this as a lifetime Pittsburgh Pirates fan, Traynor is one of the least Hall Of Fame worthy players enshrined in Cooperstown.

Tom C
I agree that the best bat is the side-written bat. Nothing like it. I have also heard that Pie didn't order bats for himself, but that claim is belied by the shipping records. He ordered at least 14 shipments, up to his later playing years. So, I must disagree with the claim that side-written bats are the ONLY bats that you can associate with old Pie. If you have a Traynor bat that matches his orders, then you have a pretty cool bat. (I'm keeping mine).

Also, you are wrong about Traynor not deserving his place in the Hall. In the pre-war era, clubs considered third base to be a key defensive position. It wasn't far behind ss. Traynor was one of the few who were good enough to excel at third AND to hit in the top of the order. As has been said here, the people who knew baseball during Pie Traynor's era considered him to be a great fielder and a great hitter for his position. He was considered to be the best third baseman ever. That counts for something.

I had the pleasure of talking to him 3 or 4 times when I was a little kid. I sat in the same row with him at the last game at Forbes and at game 3 of th 71 WS. He was a very genial and dignified man. He was the kind of man who makes you proud to be a Pirates fan.
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  #23  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:12 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
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An outstanding argument can be made the Traynor wasn't even the best Pittsburgh Pirates third baseman of all time by the time of his retirement. Let alone of all 16 teams.

See also: Leach, Tommy.

Tom C
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  #24  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
An outstanding argument can be made the Traynor wasn't even the best Pittsburgh Pirates third baseman of all time by the time of his retirement. Let alone of all 16 teams.

See also: Leach, Tommy.

Tom C
Lol. Leach was such a great 3rd baseman that is why he played most of his games in the outfield.
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  #25  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:42 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Hof voters are more qualified than you, lol. They saw Traynor, Baker and Collins play and they overwhelmingly believed that Pie was the best. All you care about is one offensive stat, OPS+, and ignore the rest. Most importantly, you completely ignore defense at a time when the position was primarily a defensive one. Pie was a better all around player than either Baker or Collins and it isn't close, just ask John McGraw who also played the position.

Graig Nettles, Ken Boyer, Buddy Bell, Sal Bando, Darrell Evens, Ron Cey and Toby Harrah all had a higher OPS+ than Brooks Robinson. Why aren't they all in the HoF? Your simplistic argument is that if a player has a higher OPS, we should ignore all other batting stats and defense. Sorry, that is ridiculous. Players aren't elected to the HoF strictly on offense.
Players on your list:

Graig Nettles
Ken Boyer
Buddy Bell
Sal Bando
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey
Toby Harrah

Players on your list who were better 3B than Pie Traynor:

Graig Nettles (insanely better 3B than Traynor)
Ken Boyer (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Buddy Bell (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Sal Bando (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey

Do they belong in the HOF? Not saying that. Just that they are all (minus Toby Harrah) better than Pie Traynor.

I would also add the following non-HOF 3B as easily better than Pie Traynor:

Scott Rolen
Robin Ventura
Stan Hack
Bob Elliot
Heinie Groh
Matt Williams

Others who a good argument could be made that they are better than Traynor:

Tommy Leach
Troy Glaus
Tim Wallach
Gary Gaetti
Ken Caminiti

So, by the time of Traynor's retirement, the following players were better or a good argument could be made that they were better, than Pie Traynor:

Frank Baker
Jimmy Collins
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach

Your statement that Traynor is "better all around" than Baker and Jimmy Collins is laughably inaccurate. Collins was at least as good a hitter and far better defensively. Baker was a far better hitter and at least Traynor's equal defensively, if not slightly better.

Tom C
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  #26  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:47 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Lol. Leach was such a great 3rd baseman that is why he played most of his games in the outfield.
He played almost 1000 games at third base. Granted, that is half of what Traynor played at the position. But if you take the totality of his career versus Traynor's, or if you extrapolate Leach's 3B numbers to a 154 game schedule and do the same for Traynor, Leach is the better player.

I will grant you that he was not a 3B his entire career (basically half of his career) and that perhaps that should take him out of the discussion. But Leach was a better player at 3B for the Pirates than was Traynor, and he did so over a fairly large number of years.

Tom C

Edit:

Also, total games played by position for Leach as a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates:

3B 850
OF 630

Last edited by btcarfagno; 10-24-2017 at 10:05 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-24-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
Players on your list:

Graig Nettles
Ken Boyer
Buddy Bell
Sal Bando
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey
Toby Harrah

Players on your list who were better 3B than Pie Traynor:

Graig Nettles (insanely better 3B than Traynor)
Ken Boyer (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Buddy Bell (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Sal Bando (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey

Do they belong in the HOF? Not saying that. Just that they are all (minus Toby Harrah) better than Pie Traynor.

I would also add the following non-HOF 3B as easily better than Pie Traynor:

Scott Rolen
Robin Ventura
Stan Hack
Bob Elliot
Heinie Groh
Matt Williams

Others who a good argument could be made that they are better than Traynor:

Tommy Leach
Troy Glaus
Tim Wallach
Gary Gaetti
Ken Caminiti

So, by the time of Traynor's retirement, the following players were better or a good argument could be made that they were better, than Pie Traynor:

Frank Baker
Jimmy Collins
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach

Your statement that Traynor is "better all around" than Baker and Jimmy Collins is laughably inaccurate. Collins was at least as good a hitter and far better defensively. Baker was a far better hitter and at least Traynor's equal defensively, if not slightly better.

Tom C
None of those players were better than Traynor. There is absolutely no evidence provided, although I would guess you would provide the extremely flawed OPS+. Neither Baker or Collins were in Traynor's class defensively. It is a shame that we have very incomplete data, as Traynor's greatness will be lost as more and more skeptics refuse to believe eyewitness testimony and put their faith in unscientific statistical analysis by those uneducated in the subject.

Hitting data is also incomplete, but from partial data, we know Pie was very good in clutch situations, but NO data on Baker or Collins. Pie also had a longer peak which resulted in higher counting stats as well as have a much higher BA, but you only consider that for Brooks to hate on Pie. It is truly sad that people now completely disregard the opinions of experts for opinions of the uneducated misusing statistics and analytical methods. Pie was the best 3rd baseman of the first 80-90 years of MLB and no one is close. Having a website on the internet and post contrasting opinions will never change that fact.

Last edited by rats60; 10-24-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-24-2017, 11:40 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
None of those players were better than Traynor. There is absolutely no evidence provided, although I would guess you would provide the extremely flawed OPS+. Neither Baker or Collins were in Traynor's class defensively. It is a shame that we have very incomplete data, as Traynor's greatness will be lost as more and more skeptics refuse to believe eyewitness testimony and put their faith in unscientific statistical analysis by those uneducated in the subject.

Hitting data is also incomplete, but from partial data, we know Pie was very good in clutch situations, but NO data on Baker or Collins. Pie also had a longer peak which resulted in higher counting stats as well as have a much higher BA, but you only consider that for Brooks to hate on Pie. It is truly sad that people now completely disregard the opinions of experts for opinions of the uneducated misusing statistics and analytical methods. Pie was the best 3rd baseman of the first 80-90 years of MLB and no one is close. Having a website on the internet and post contrasting opinions will never change that fact.
Some light reading for the obviously misinformed:


http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...on/pie_traynor

http://www.hallofstats.com/player/traynpi01

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/exam...me-selections/

https://books.google.com/books?id=Xy...20fame&f=false

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...-third-basemen
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  #29  
Old 10-24-2017, 12:11 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
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Dick Bartell on Pie Traynor:

“He had some deficiencies that you weren’t aware of unless you played next to him. When making a throw to second base he would lob the ball like a shot put instead of throwing it.”

Tom C
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  #30  
Old 10-24-2017, 12:27 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
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Additional reading for the misinformed. I particularly like the following:

"That leaves three players in the conversation with Traynor. They were Home Run Baker, Heinie Groh, and Larry Gardner. I prefer Gardner, though reasonable people could disagree with me. I also prefer Groh, and it would take a less reasonable person or less thoughtful analysis to select Traynor over Groh. And Baker? There’s no way a reasonable person could find Traynor and Baker even comparable. Baker was far and away better. To help you make up your mind, I created the below chart of guys ranked by my eqWAR at the same level at their positions as Baker and Traynor at 3B.

3B Home Run Baker Pie Traynor
C Gabby Hartnett Rick Ferrell
1B Pete Rose Harry Stovey
2B Bobby Grich Del Pratt
SS Luke Appling Dick Bartell
LF Goose Goslin Mike Smith
CF Richie Ashburn George Van Haltren
RF Reggie Jackson Brian Giles

To understand and agree with my point, you need not agree that the players above are ranked where I have them. Hell, I don’t know if I agree with my rankings. You only need to believe the player on the left is better than the player on the right."

https://homemlb.wordpress.com/2013/1...d-pie-traynor/

Tom C
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