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  #751  
Old 07-05-2019, 04:03 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default INDEX...T206 REFERENCE/Reflections...the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-11-2019 at 08:54 PM. Reason: Updated INDEX.
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  #752  
Old 07-06-2019, 07:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,522
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………...


The Elite 11 with EPDG backs are not quite as rare as with the PIEDMONT 350. Nevertheless, the EPDG's are tough.
I acquired 8 of the Elite 11 with the EPDG back. Subsequently, I traded 4 of them. These 4 remain in my collection.
.





TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-08-2019 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #753  
Old 07-08-2019, 12:11 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,522
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………...


Gee guys,

I expected to see some more Elite 11 cards. And especially nicer looking ones than mine. Usually, most of these Elite 11 cards (when found) appear to be Vg (or worse).
Probably, the nicest looking one I've had was this Lindaman, which I acquired at the National in 2008……


. .



Since I had two Lindaman's, I sold this nicer one because I was offered a price for it that I could not refuse.

There appears to be a certain fascination with these Elite 11 T206's....so, why not Show-n-Tell us of your Elite 11 cards ?


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-08-2019 at 01:04 PM.
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  #754  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:45 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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Location: Connecticut
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Here is my group of Elite 11 cards. I didn't realize how many I had graded until I managed to get them all together. Looks like I have a few to upgrade at some point also.




__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 513/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5252
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #755  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,522
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………...



Hi Ron

Now that's a really nice display of your Elite 11 cards. Thanks for posting them.

It is interesting that you are missing Tom Jones and Lundgren with PIEDMONT 350 backs. But, you do have Spencer with the PIEDMONT 350 back.

Experience has shown that these three Elite 11 subjects are considerably tougher to find than the rest of the Eleven with the PIEDMONT 350 back.

Good luck in finding Jones and Lundgren.


TED Z
.
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  #756  
Old 07-10-2019, 08:49 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,522
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



…………….. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………..



Hey Ron

In your scans on Post #754 you included the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, which reminded me that the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 appear to be much more difficult
to find than their PIEDMONT or SWEET CAPORAL counterparts.
I'm curious if your experience finding the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 subjects was similar to mine ?


.
.


.
.



TED Z
.
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  #757  
Old 07-10-2019, 11:51 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post

Hey Ron

In your scans on Post #754 you included the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, which reminded me that the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 appear to be much more difficult
to find than their PIEDMONT or SWEET CAPORAL counterparts.
I'm curious if your experience finding the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 subjects was similar to mine ?

TED Z
.
Hi Ted, I found the Sovereign 150 Elite 11 cards to be more difficult than many of the other Sovereign 150’s. They are much more difficult than the Piedmont 150’s and Sweet Caporal 150’s, but very similar to the EPDG’s as far as difficulty. Dahlen Sovereign 150 seemed to be the most difficult for me which is interesting because Dahlen EPDG is the most difficult EPDG Elite 11. I also feel that Elite 11 Hindu’s are more common than other Brown Hindu’s.

Since we are talking about Sovereign’s and there’s another post about Sovereign’s and the original 150, which I don’t believe there to be any exact numbers, I figured I’d share my Sovereign 150 difficulty breakdown list. It’s in 4 sections from most difficult to easiest. Obviously, this is only my opinion.

These cards are from a group of 150 only cards. No 350 backs were made with any back. These are the most difficult Sovereign 150’s. (11/150)
Ames, Red (Hands At Chest)
Brown, George (Chicago)
Brown, Mordecai (Cubs On Shirt)
Burch, AL (Batting)
Donlin, Mike (Fielding)
Doyle, Larry (Throwing)
Evers, Johnny (Cubs On Shirt - Blue Sky)
Pattee, Harry
Pelty, Barney (Horizontal)
Powers, Mike
Reulbach, Ed (Glove Showing)

These cards are from the Elite 11 card group. These are cards that can only be found with a Sovereign 150 and not Sovereign 350 back. These are the second most difficult Sovereign 150’s.(10/150)
Dahlen, Bill (Boston)
Ewing, Bob
Ganley, Bob
Jones, Tom
Karger, Ed
Lindaman, Vive
Mullin, George (Throwing)
Schaefer, Germany (Detroit)
Shaw, Al
Spencer, Tubby

These are cards that can only be found with a Sovereign 150 and not Sovereign 350 back. These are the third most difficult Sovereign 150’s. (60/150)
Alperman, Whitey
Ball, Neal (New York)
Bates, Johnny
Beaumont, Ginger
Bergen, Bill (Batting)
Bowerman, Frank
Bradley, Bill (Portrait)
Bransfield, Kitty
Chance, Frank (Portrait - Red)
Chase, Hal (Portrait - Pink)
Chase, Hal (White Cap)
Chesbro, Jack
Clarke, Fred (Portrait)
Clarke, J.J.
Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Green)
Conroy, Wid (Fielding)
Covaleski, Harry
Crandall, Doc (Portrait No Cap)
Davis, George
Davis, Harry (H. Davis On Front)
Delehanty, Jim
Doolin, Mickey
Durham, Bull
Evers, Johnny (Portrait)
Gibson, George
Gilbert, Billy
Hahn, Ed
Hemphill, Charlie
Herzog, Buck (New York)
Hinchman, Bill
Jordan, Tim (Portrait)
Keeler, Willie (Portrait)
Killian, Ed (Hands At Chest)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Above Head)
Lajoie, Nap (Throwing)
Lake, Joe (New York)
Leach, Tommy (Portrait)
Lobert, Hans
Lumley, Harry
Magee, Sherry (Portrait)
Marquard, Rube (Hands At Side)
Mathewson, Christy (White Cap)
McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn)
McQuillan, George (Ball In Hand)
Overall, Orval (Portrait)
Owen, Frank
Pastorius, Jim
Powell, Jack
Ritchey, Claude
Rucker, Nap (Portrait)
Schlei, Admiral (Catching)
Schmidt, Boss (Throwing)
Schulte, Wildfire (Front View)
Spade, Bob
Steinfeldt, Harry (Portrait)
Tannehill, Lee (L. Tannehill On Front)
Tinker, Joe (Portrait)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Left Shoulder)
Wilhelm, Kaiser (Hands At Chest)
Williams, Jimmy

These are cards that can be found with a Sovereign 150 and Sovereign 350 back. These are the least difficult Sovereign 150’s. (69/150)
Abbaticchio, Ed (Brown Sleeves)
Ames, Red (Portrait)
Bell, George (Hands Above Head)
Bender, Chief (Portrait)
Birmingham, Joe
Bresnahan, Roger (Portrait)
Bridwell, Al (Portrait - No Cap)
Brown, Mordecai (Portrait)
Camnitz, Howie (Arms Folded)
Cicotte, Ed
Clarke, Fred (Batting)
Cobb, Ty (Bat On Shoulder)
Criger, Lou
Criss, Dode
Devlin, Art
Donlin, Mike (Seated)
Donohue, Jiggs
Donovan, Wild Bill (Portrait)
Dooin, Red
Dougherty, Patsy (Portrait)
Elberfeld, Kid (Portrait - New York)
Ferris, Hobe
Flick, Elmer
Goode, Wilbur
Griffith, Clark (Portrait)
Isbell, Frank
Jacklitsch, Fred
Johnson, Walter (Portrait)
Jones, Fielder (Hands At Hips)
Jones, Fielder (Portrait)
Joss, Addie (Portrait)
Keeler, Willie (With Bat)
Kleinow, Red (New York - With Bat)
Kling, Johnny
Lajoie, Nap (Portrait)
Leifield, Lefty (Pitching)
Liebhardt, Glenn
Manning, Rube (Batting)
Mathewson, Christy (Portrait)
McGraw, John (Finger In Air)
McGraw, John (Portrait - No Cap)
Merkle, Fred (Portrait)
Murphy, Danny (Throwing)
Nicholls, Simon (Hands On Knees)
Niles, Harry
Oldring, Rube (Fielding)
O'Leary, Charley (Portrait)
Parent, Fred
Seymour, Cy (Batting)
Sheckard, Jimmy (No Glove Showing)
Shipke, Bill
Smith, Frank (F. Smith)
Stahl, Jake (No Glove Shows)
Stone, George
Stovall, George (Portrait)
Sullivan, Billy
Tenney, Fred
Tinker, Joe (Hands On Knees)
Turner, Terry
Waddell, Rube (Portrait)
Waddell, Rube (Throwing)
Wallace, Bobby
Walsh, Ed
Weimer, Jake
White, Doc (Portrait)
Willis, Vic (Portrait)
Wiltse, Hooks (Portrait - No Cap)
Young, Cy (Bare Hand)
Young, Cy (Portrait)
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 513/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5252
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

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  #758  
Old 07-11-2019, 07:09 AM
t206kid t206kid is offline
Jay Kaplan
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Posts: 454
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Ron, this is really great work. I strongly agree with the categories, although I think the top group is far more difficult than the Elite 11 group.

While there are a couple outliers from the Sovereign 150 and 350 list (Cobb bat on, Lajoie, Jones standing, Tenney, Criger, Clarke batting to name a few)...this is the best way to break things down imo.
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  #759  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:30 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Posts: 7,522
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Only these five T-brands were printed on the backs of the 150-only T206's


Ron

Thanks for sharing your Sovereign 150 difficulty breakdown information.

When I put together my all - SOVEREIGN set (circa 2007), most of my experience finding the SOVEREIGN 150 cards mirrors your list. The 150-only subjects
were somewhat tougher than the Elite 11 (with SOVEREIGN 150 backs). Especially the Schulte (front view) card. I think he was the last card which completed
my set.
As you probably know, I consider this Schulte card residing in the 150-only group. My theory is.....American Litho replaced Wagner with Schulte to fill out the
vacant slot on the printing plates. Schulte is definitely a short-print with respect to SOVEREIGN 150 cards.


150-only Series subjects





. . > > > >



TED Z
.
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  #760  
Old 07-11-2019, 08:49 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,522
Default T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



…………….. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
…...Sovereign 150 seemed to be the most difficult for me which is interesting because Dahlen EPDG is the most difficult EPDG Elite 11......
Ron

As you well know, Dahlen (Boston) and Spencer are without a doubt the most difficult to find of the Elite 11 group. I post this following timeline of the transitional status
of these 10 players, which was approximately concurrent with American Lithographic's 350 Series start-up. Of which the PIEDMONT 350 backs were printed first. And, it
is my understanding that the EPDG print runs instantly followed.


Bill Dahlen...............Oct 27, 1909....signed by Brooklyn [this may explain why Dahlen (Boston) is really tough (and perhaps short-printed)]

Bob Ewing...............Jan 10, 1910....traded tp the Phillies

Bob Ganley..............May 18, 1909....traded to Philadelphia A's

Tom Jones...............Aug 20, 1909....traded to Detroit

Ed Karger................June 9, 1909.....sold to St. Paul Saints (American Association)
.............................July 26, 1909....traded to Boston (AL)

Vive Lindaman..........July 7, 1909....Major League career ends

Carl Lundgren...........Apr 23, 1909....Major League career ends

Germany Schaefer.....Aug 13, 1909....traded to Washington

Al Shaw..................1910....played with Wichita Jobbers (Western League)

Tubby Spencer.........1910....played with St. Paul Saints (American Association) [this certainly explains why Spencer is a real "toughie"]


TED Z
.
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