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  #1301  
Old 09-23-2021, 07:12 AM
53toppscollector's Avatar
53toppscollector 53toppscollector is offline
James M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Hi James, I have 254 Tolstoi's confirmed the same list as t206resource I think it's actually 253 (I believe Bender with trees is a PSA flip error) which
one do you have confirmed that's not confirmed on this list?

https://www.t206resource.com/Tolstoi%20Checklist.html
I took that checklist total (314) and subtracted all the blueish green shaded entries which are "should exist" and I got to 255, but I counted it by hand obviously. Ted noted that he thinks it is 255 as well, but I am honestly not sure.
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My T205 Census thread
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  #1302  
Old 09-23-2021, 07:30 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default TOLSTOI cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Hi James, I have 254 Tolstoi's confirmed the same list as t206resource I think it's actually 253 (I believe Bender with trees is a PSA flip error) which
one do you have confirmed that's not confirmed on this list?

Hi James (53toppscollector)

However, I have never seen the Bender (trees) with a TOLSTOI back, So, I am inclined to agree with Pat R, that it is possibly a grading labelling error.
I have annotated this entry on my list with a ?

TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.
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  #1303  
Old 09-23-2021, 08:40 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.
.... Sweet Caporal ...... Sovereign ......... Piedmont___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___American Beauty ... COUPON ...…...... UZIT


This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 823.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?

Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run

Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's

Posts #1035 >> 1050.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1051 >> 1066.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1068 >> 1070.....Imagine the T206 guys come alive, great read about the 1904 season

Posts #1071 >> 1086....."pet peeves" regarding certain T206's...and tell us of your's ?

Posts #1087 >> 1100.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1101 >> 1150.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1151 >> 1160.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1161 >> 1193.....ATC's "signature" white-border T-card. Post your favorite Red Cobb

Posts #1194 >> 1198.....Questionable action poses on certain T206's. Show us a questionable pose

Posts #1199 >> 1200....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Posts #1201 >> 1207....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Posts #1208 >> 1213.....Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards

Posts #1214 >> 1225.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card survey (Updated)

Posts #1226 >> 1237.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects

Posts #1238 >> 1250....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them

Posts #1251 >> 1262....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them

Posts #1263 >> 1281.....T206-like T209 (CONTENTNEA) 1st series....show us your T209 cards

Posts #1283 >> 1294.....TRIVIA....Iffy call cost Team the Pennant. Who's the T206 player involved ?

Posts #1295 >> 1300.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Posts #1301 >> 1302.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Post #1303....................INDEX

Posts #1305 >> 1310.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Posts #1311 >> 1314.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....

Posts #1316 >> 1318.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....

Posts #1328 >> 1332.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....

Posts #1335 >> 1341.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....

Posts #1342 >> 1350.....Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do

Posts #1351 >> 1376.....Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do

Posts #1377 >> 1383.....Fun run....PIEDMONT 350-460 Fact 25....Give it the old college try


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me with your question.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Last edited by tedzan; 01-12-2022 at 06:55 PM. Reason: Updated INDEX.
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  #1304  
Old 09-23-2021, 12:04 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 53toppscollector View Post
I took that checklist total (314) and subtracted all the blueish green shaded entries which are "should exist" and I got to 255, but I counted it by hand obviously. Ted noted that he thinks it is 255 as well, but I am honestly not sure.

t206resource has 60 unconfirmed Tolstoi's out of the 314 on the list. I have seen at least one example of all the confirmed Tolstoi's except Bender with trees.

From Teds list I've never seen the Following Tolstoi's and they're not in any of the pop reports

Bliss
Casey
Knight (bat)
Knight (portrait)
Merritt
O'Neill
Pfeister (seated)


I have seen these that are not confirmed on Ted's list

Beckley
Donovan (throwing)
Fromme
Knabe
Street (portrait)
Sweeney, Bill

Last edited by Pat R; 09-24-2021 at 04:40 AM.
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  #1305  
Old 09-23-2021, 07:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty


OK guys....switching back to the main track regarding the subject matter....Joe Doyle. Here's a story which you may find interesting.

Imagine pulling a Joe Doyle Nat'L card from a Piedmont pack when you were a teenager. Or, your Dad's visit to Atlanta in 1910 acquiring a Ty Cobb/TY COBB card for you ? ?

One of the most unique T206 collections in the hobby is on display at the University of Georgia (Athens). Former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's collection of approx. 1000
tobacco cards were donated to Georgia U. in 1983 (along with Russell's historical papers).
Russell was an avid BB fan as a teenager. At the age of 13 (1910), he started smoking cigarettes (Piedmont was the available brand in his area of Georgia). He pulled 1000's
of T206 cards from the packs he purchased. His T206 set has 497 different cards. However, no Wagner or Plank in his collection. Not unusual, since these two gems were not
marketed with Piedmont backs.

His teenage smoking habits came to an abrupt end in Fall of 1911, when his parents enrolled him into Gordon Military Institute. It is my impression that his BB card collecting
also ended at that point (judging from the few number of T205 cards in his collection).

P.S.
In 2008, I became quite interested in this story regarding Richard Russell's collection, since I acquired a number of cards (duplicates) from his original collection. A relative of
his had consigned approx. 200 cards (mostly T206's) to a dealer in Atlanta (who listed the cards on ebay). He was selling many of his duplicates which were found in a box in
a desk drawer from Russell's estate. The group of T206's which I acquired were all Piedmont 350 backs, including 7 of the the rare "Elite 11" cards.

So, the point of this story is....before Larry Fritsch discovered the Joe Doyle Nat'L card, it was an unknown rarity, just waiting to be discovered.



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.
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  #1306  
Old 09-28-2021, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *




When American Lithographic started printing the 350 Series T206's, they introduced new T-brands: AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and TOLSTOI .

TOLSTOI print runs started circa early 1910. Continued to the end of the T206 press runs (Spring 1911). To date, 255 subjects have been confirmed. Most TOLSTOI cards
are not tough to find. However, certain 350-only subjects printed early in 1910 must have been short-printed, as they are very tough to find.



TOLSTOI checklist (255 subjects) confirmed. They are listed here according to their respective T206 series.

350-only Series...................146 subjects

Abstein
Anderson
Arellanes
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Bender (trees)............. ?
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burns
Bush
Byrne
Campbell
Carrigan

Casey
Chappelle
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Milwaukee)
Collins (A's)
Cree
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dineen
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Joe Doyle (NY)
Dubuc
Jack Dunn

Joe Dunn
Dygert
Easterly
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (throwing)
Fletcher
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hartsell
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis AL)

Hofman
Howard (Chicago NL)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox

Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinnity
McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago NL)

Mowrey
Murray (bat)
Myers (batting)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Nichols (bat)
Oakes
O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhoades (hands at chest)

Rhodes
Ritter
Rossman
Rudolph
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Slagle
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Starr
Stanage
Stephens
Strang
Summers
Taylor

Thomas
Unglaub
Warhop
Willett
Wilson
Zimmerman


350/460 series...................57 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series......…..........46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)



This is a work is stillin progress.


TED Z
.

Ted do you have scans or know who confirmed these Tolstoi's

Bliss
Casey
Knight (bat)
Knight (portrait)
Merritt
O'niell
Pfeister (seated)
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  #1307  
Old 09-30-2021, 02:32 PM
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Ted for accuracy on the Tolstoi list I would appreciate if you would respond to my question.

These are confirmed and they were on your old list and Scot readers Tolstoi survey but you don't have them on your new list.

Beckley
Donovan (throwing)
Knabe
Bill Sweeney


These are not on your list and I have them confirmed

Street (portrait)
Fromme


Street Portrait.jpg

Fromme Tolstoi.jpg

These are on your new list but weren't on your original list so they are recently confirmed or mistakes

Bliss
Casey
Knight (bat)
Knight (portrait)
O'neill
Pfeister (Seated)

I haven't seen or found any records of these Tolstoi's do you have scans or a record of who confirmed these recently?

I did find where you confirmed the Merritt in Scot's survey do you have a scan of that card?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archive View Post
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SCOT

I found 5 more Tolstoi's........

Campbell

Cree

Downs

Lattimore

Merritt


TED Z

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  #1308  
Old 09-30-2021, 04:10 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Pat R

I've been away since last Friday. I was set-up at the Philly Show (3 days). Visiting friends this week. When I return home,
I'll try to sort thru my records to see what I come up with.


Meanwhile, when are you going to correct your "buddies" (or whoever) at T206Resource regarding these 5 cards:

Ames (Hands Above Head) listed as "confirmed" with an AB460 back. This is absolutely a NO-PRINT.

Furthermore, the T206Resource checklist regarding PIEDMONT 350-460/42 includes these 4 subjects listed as "confirmed":

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Wiltse (Portrait - With Cap)

These 4 cards are absolutely NO-PRINTS with PIEDMONT 350-460/42 backs.

For over 15 years, there are three of us, who individually, put together our P42 runs. And we have compared our experiences
collecting this sub-set. We are convinced that T206Resource is inaccurate, listing these 4 cards as "confirmed" with this back.


TED Z
.
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  #1309  
Old 10-01-2021, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat R

I've been away since last Friday. I was set-up at the Philly Show (3 days). Visiting friends this week. When I return home,
I'll try to sort thru my records to see what I come up with.


Meanwhile, when are you going to correct your "buddies" (or whoever) at T206Resource regarding these 5 cards:

Ames (Hands Above Head) listed as "confirmed" with an AB460 back. This is absolutely a NO-PRINT.

Furthermore, the T206Resource checklist regarding PIEDMONT 350-460/42 includes these 4 subjects listed as "confirmed":

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Wiltse (Portrait - With Cap)

These 4 cards are absolutely NO-PRINTS with PIEDMONT 350-460/42 backs.

For over 15 years, there are three of us, who individually, put together our P42 runs. And we have compared our experiences
collecting this sub-set. We are convinced that T206Resource is inaccurate, listing these 4 cards as "confirmed" with this back.


TED Z
.

Here's the Wiltse Ted

Wiltse PD42.jpg
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  #1310  
Old 10-01-2021, 06:22 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Here's the Wiltse Ted

Attachment 481065
I included Wiltse by mistake. My bad. Sorry about that, as I listed it off the top of my head (since I'm not at home).

The 4th inaccuracy in T206Resource 's PIEDMONT #42 checklist is Overall (Hands at waist level).

The PIEDMONT #42 sub-set is complete with exactly 72 subjects....63 from the 350/460 Series and 9 from the 460-only Series.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 10-01-2021 at 06:48 AM. Reason: Added information.
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  #1311  
Old 10-01-2021, 12:19 PM
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Ted I'm not sure why you're asking me about someone else's list but some research indicates the following cards in question were at some point confirmed by the following people....

Bergen (catching) Piedmont factory 42
Anonymous
Ted Z
Brian W


Murry (portrait) Piedmont factory 42
Dave Wipple
Ted Z
Scot R


Overall (hands at waist) Piedmont factory 42
Ted Z
Scot R

Chance (batting) Piedmont factory 42
Had your initials on Bill Browns super set spreadsheet
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  #1312  
Old 10-01-2021, 04:30 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Why do we have to repeat the same old stuff, over and over again ?

What you have posted are 15-year old data when Bill Brown first posted his T206 super-set spreadsheet in 2006. For the most part Bill's Excel sheet is accurate.
However, a number of wrong inputs did get reported.

Subsequently, as new information regarding T206 front/back patterns as a result of my theories (and other's theories), I contacted Net54er's who had inputted
questionable front/back combos on the spreadsheet. Starting with Ames (hands over head) / AB460. The guy who inputted this admitted he made a mistake.

I contacted the person who provided the Overall (hands at waist level). He realized he had made a mistake, since his card was the Overall (hand at face level).

Regarding Bergen.....here is my post on a thread regarding P42 cards dated: 3-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
I have removed Bergen from the confirmed list, as I can't find whatever evidence I had that it was confirmed.
And like you, I have never seen one.
Regarding Chance.....here is my post on a thread regarding P42 cards dated: 3-17- 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
I must say....that surprised me. I cannot find any evidence of Chance (batting) with a PIEDMONT 460/42 back.
I will look into why my initials are in that slot on the super-set.
TED Z

Furthermore, Adam Goldenberg, Craig Wright, and I were working on PIEDMONT #42 runs. The 3 of us kept in touch, trading and selling P42s to each other;
and, comparing notes. I think Adam completed his run. I am not certain if Craig did. All three of us agreed that only 9 subjects in the 460-only Series were
printed with P42. Several years have past since then, and NO additional new P42's have been discovered.

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z
.
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  #1313  
Old 10-01-2021, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Why do we have to repeat the same old stuff, over and over again ?

What you have posted are 15-year old data when Bill Brown first posted his T206 super-set spreadsheet in 2006. For the most part Bill's Excel sheet is accurate.
However, a number of wrong inputs did get reported.

Subsequently, as new information regarding T206 front/back patterns as a result of my theories (and other's theories), I contacted Net54er's who had inputted
questionable front/back combos on the spreadsheet. Starting with Ames (hands over head) / AB460. The guy who inputted this admitted he made a mistake.

I contacted the person who provided the Overall (hands at waist level). He realized he had made a mistake, since his card was the Overall (hand at face level).

Regarding Bergen.....here is my post on a thread regarding P42 cards dated: 3-16-2010


Regarding Chance.....here is my post on a thread regarding P42 cards dated: 3-17- 2010



Furthermore, Adam Goldenberg, Craig Wright, and I were working on PIEDMONT #42 runs. The 3 of us kept in touch, trading and selling P42s to each other;
and, comparing notes. I think Adam completed his run. I am not certain if Craig did. All three of us agreed that only 9 subjects in the 460-only Series were
printed with P42. Several years have past since then, and NO additional new P42's have been discovered.

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z
.

I asked you about the Tolstoi list you brought up the Ames and the Piedmont 42's.

I saw your post on the Bergen from 3-16-10 but you then re-confirmed
Bergen on 8-22-10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The Bergen (catching) PIEDMONT factory 42 card has been confirmed.

The grand total is now 75 (out of 109) cards with PIEDMONT factory 42 backs that have been confirmed.
[linked image]
PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list............

350/460 Series......63 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series......12 cards

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


This 460-only Series card has been reported but not 100% confirmed......

Chance (bat)


Any new PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 inputs are greatly appreciated.


Thanks to all who have contributed to this T206 survey.

TED Z
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  #1314  
Old 10-01-2021, 06:02 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE.....interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

This ends my discussion with you. Once again, for the umpteenth time, you have "side-tracked" the Topic of this thread.
Go play your "negative games" with some one else. This ends any further discussion with you....PERIOD !


Dated 7-9-2015.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
With the recent discovery of Tinker (bat off shoulder) the confirmed total now is 72 subjects with the PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 back.






PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list............

350/460 Series......63 subjects (complete)

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series......9 subjects

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Other Net54 sources claim that the following 4 subjects are confirmed.

Chance (batting)
Bergen (catching)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

My research indicates that these 4 subjects are PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 No-Prints.



TED Z
.
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  #1315  
Old 10-01-2021, 06:17 PM
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Ted,

How have you been? Thanks for this massive contribution that you've consolidated and curated.
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  #1316  
Old 10-01-2021, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat R

I've been away since last Friday. I was set-up at the Philly Show (3 days). Visiting friends this week. When I return home,
I'll try to sort thru my records to see what I come up with.


Meanwhile, when are you going to correct your "buddies" (or whoever) at T206Resource regarding these 5 cards:

Ames (Hands Above Head) listed as "confirmed" with an AB460 back. This is absolutely a NO-PRINT.

Furthermore, the T206Resource checklist regarding PIEDMONT 350-460/42 includes these 4 subjects listed as "confirmed":

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Wiltse (Portrait - With Cap)

These 4 cards are absolutely NO-PRINTS with PIEDMONT 350-460/42 backs.

For over 15 years, there are three of us, who individually, put together our P42 runs. And we have compared our experiences
collecting this sub-set. We are convinced that T206Resource is inaccurate, listing these 4 cards as "confirmed" with this back.


TED Z
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
This ends my discussion with you. Once again, for the umpteenth time, you have "side-tracked" the Topic of this thread.
Go play your "negative games" with some one else. This ends any further discussion with you....PERIOD !


Dated 7-9-2015.....

Really Ted? Maybe you should pay more attention to what you post. You made the sarcastic comment. If you have a problem with the t206resource
list why don't you contact Tim he's the one that makes the changes to their lists.
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  #1317  
Old 10-01-2021, 07:10 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Adam Goldenberg and Craig Wright have contacted t206resource regarding P42 cards.

Jonathan Weil has contacted T206Resource regarding SOVEREIGN cards.

Others have in recent years contacted T206Resource regarding adding new inputs, or correcting Checklist info.

All of which to no avail (or response.)


TED Z
.
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  #1318  
Old 10-02-2021, 06:09 AM
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Well I don't know what to tell you Ted they are not my lists. What's wrong with the Sovereign lists?

For what it's worth there is a Piedmont factory 42 Murray in the PSA pop reports.
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  #1319  
Old 10-02-2021, 06:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE.....interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty


OK guys....we are switching this "train" back onto the main track. Let's hear and see some more stuff regarding Joe Doyle and/or Chet Hoff....cards, stories, etc.

They started pitching for the NY Highlanders. Both 5' 9" and both had short ML careers (approx. 5-years). Doyle a right-handed pitcher. Hoff a Southpaw pitcher.
Here's their major difference....Joe Doyle lived to age 66. Chet Hoff lived to the grand old age of 107.

Regarding their BB cards......
The Joe Doyle Nat'L is the scarcest T206 subject in this 524-subject card set, with only 9 of them (or perhaps 10) that are known, as of this date.
The Chet Hoff's card is by no means a rare card; however, it is one of the tougher cards to find in the T207 set.

Your stories and/or your questions are very appreciated.


----


I will continue their stories with these two very similar events with Doyle and Hoff when their Major League careers started......

August 1906, Doyle in his rookie start hurled a six-hit shutout vs Lajoie's Cleveland Naps at the Highlander's Hilltop Park. Doyle's variety of pitches bewildered the Naps,
including striking-out Lajoie.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Chet Hoff Hoff made his big league debut in September 1911, the Highlanders were playing at Hilltop Park in the Washington Heights section of Manhattan. In his second major
league game, Hoff, a 20-year-old left-hander fresh off the Westchester County sandlots was summoned in relief against the Detroit Tigers. Chet recalled it 80 years later....."the
batter fouled off two -- the first two strikes were fastballs. The 3rd strike I threw him was a fast curve. It was a perfect strike over the plate and he looked at it. But at that time
I didn't know who he was, no more than the man in the moon, until the next morning I picked up The New York Journal. The big red headlines in the paper says Hoff Strikes Out
Ty Cobb. I couldn't believe it at first. It was the biggest thrill of my Baseball career."

TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
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  #1320  
Old 10-03-2021, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Well I don't know what to tell you Ted they are not my lists. What's wrong with the Sovereign lists?

For what it's worth there is a Piedmont factory 42 Murray in the PSA pop reports.



I found it and it turns out it's another PSA label error.

Murray mis-labeled PD factory 42.jpg
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  #1321  
Old 10-03-2021, 05:35 PM
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I know PSA won't do it, but Nat Turner, if you are reading this thread, you should offer anyone who holds a PSA T206 that isn't labeled properly, either with a mislabel like that, or the generic "Sovereign" instead of Sovereign 150/350/460 etc to re-submit the slab and have it re-holdered and re-labeled correctly, with the pop count updated accordingly, for free.
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  #1322  
Old 10-04-2021, 08:26 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
[/B]


I found it and it turns out it's another PSA label error.

Attachment 481423

Excellent research.

No further comment, necessary.


TED Z

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  #1323  
Old 10-04-2021, 06:02 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty



The Joe Doyle card was printed with 7 different T-brands (listed below). Displayed here are the Joe Doyle cards from my three T206 sets.


------------


The Joe Doyle card is most available with the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL brands. Followed, by these brands....listed in order of availability......

POLAR BEAR
SOVEREIGN
OLD MILL
TOLSTOI
EL PRINCIPE de GALES


TED Z

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  #1324  
Old 10-04-2021, 07:29 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Ted I'm not sure why you're asking me about someone else's list but some research indicates the following cards in question were at some point confirmed by the following people....

Bergen (catching) Piedmont factory 42
Anonymous
Ted Z
Brian W


Murry (portrait) Piedmont factory 42
Dave Wipple
Ted Z
Scot R


Overall (hands at waist) Piedmont factory 42
Ted Z
Scot R

Chance (batting) Piedmont factory 42
Had your initials on Bill Browns super set spreadsheet
Well since my name was mentioned I might as well respond. While I did conduct large surveys back in the day, it is possible that whatever Murray and/or Overall P42 “confirmation” data I may have published came from reports by advanced collectors with whom I was in touch. It is also possible that these data points resulted from ebay listings with incorrect PSA flips or back scans, which happened from time to time.
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  #1325  
Old 10-05-2021, 12:17 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreader3 View Post
Well since my name was mentioned I might as well respond. While I did conduct large surveys back in the day, it is possible that whatever Murray and/or Overall P42 “confirmation” data I may have published came from reports by advanced collectors with whom I was in touch. It is also possible that these data points resulted from ebay listings with incorrect PSA flips or back scans, which happened from time to time.

Hi Scot

The Murray and the Overall mistakes are not your fault. One of the first threads regarding PIEDMONT #42 cards dates back to December 2006.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...3456&highlight

Brian Weisner posted this list of his P#42 cards.....

Hi Ted,
Here is the list of my 42's:

BAKERTHROW
COBBBAT OFF
COBBBAT OFF
CRAWFORDBAT
KLEINOWBOSTON
KONETCHYGL LOW
LATHAMPOR
LATHAMNY NAT
MANNINGPITCH
MATHEWSONDARK
MATHEWSONDCAP
MCINTYREBR&CH
OVERALLTHROW
PELTYVERT
SWEENEYTHROW
SEYMOURTHROW
SMITHCHI&BOS
SNODGRASSCATCH
WAGNERRIGHT
WHITECHI

However, this Overall card was inputted into the Super-Set spreadsheet as the 460-only series version of Overall (Hands at Waist).
It should have been entered in as the "Hand at Face" (350/460 series) version.

Your 2005 - 2006 publication of "Inside T206" inspired many of us Net54ers to seriously explore the complexities of the T206 set.
Resulting in discoveries, such, as the...Elite 11.....Exclusive 12.....Mutually-Exclusive 350/460 Series.....Red-Ink Twins....etc., etc.
Which provided us clearer understanding of how these cards were printed. Thereby informing us of valid T206 front/back combos.


Take care my good friend,

TED Z
.
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  #1326  
Old 10-05-2021, 08:13 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Scot

The Murray and the Overall mistakes are not your fault. One of the first threads regarding PIEDMONT #42 cards dates back to December 2006.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...3456&highlight

Brian Weisner posted this list of his P#42 cards.....

Hi Ted,
Here is the list of my 42's:

BAKERTHROW
COBBBAT OFF
COBBBAT OFF
CRAWFORDBAT
KLEINOWBOSTON
KONETCHYGL LOW
LATHAMPOR
LATHAMNY NAT
MANNINGPITCH
MATHEWSONDARK
MATHEWSONDCAP
MCINTYREBR&CH
OVERALLTHROW
PELTYVERT
SWEENEYTHROW
SEYMOURTHROW
SMITHCHI&BOS
SNODGRASSCATCH
WAGNERRIGHT
WHITECHI

However, this Overall card was inputted into the Super-Set spreadsheet as the 460-only series version of Overall (Hands at Waist).
It should have been entered in as the "Hand at Face" (350/460 series) version.

Your 2005 - 2006 publication of "Inside T206" inspired many of us Net54ers to seriously explore the complexities of the T206 set.
Resulting in discoveries, such, as the...Elite 11.....Exclusive 12.....Mutually-Exclusive 350/460 Series.....Red-Ink Twins....etc., etc.
Which provided us clearer understanding of how these cards were printed. Thereby informing us of valid T206 front/back combos.


Take care my good friend,

TED Z
.
Hi Ted. Thanks for your kind words. You and I know better than anyone that 2006 was the Dark Ages of T206. The best one can hope for is to advance a project striving for perfection but knowing he (or she) will fall short. Take care my friend.
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  #1327  
Old 10-05-2021, 08:54 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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If anyone cares to understand the T206 landscape as of 2009, which is not all that dissimilar from today's landscape, see:

https://oldcardboard.com/t/t206/Insi...al-edition.pdf

Some fun history, anecdotes and theories.
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  #1328  
Old 10-06-2021, 02:19 PM
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My post wasn't a criticism towards Scot or anyone else, I was just pointing out that Bergen, Murray, and Overall hands at waist were previously confirmed on other lists too and they were still on Ted's list until Adam questioned them in 2016.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The Bergen (catching) PIEDMONT factory 42 card has been confirmed.

The grand total is now 75 (out of 109) cards with PIEDMONT factory 42 backs that have been confirmed.
[linked image]
PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list............

350/460 Series......63 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series......12 cards

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


This 460-only Series card has been reported but not 100% confirmed......

Chance (bat)


Any new PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 inputs are greatly appreciated.


Thanks to all who have contributed to this T206 survey.

TED Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradedcardman View Post
Ted,

I would like to see scans of the following confirmed Piedmont 42's:

Bergen Catching
Murray Portrait
Overall Yellow Sky

I have been researching and looking for proof of these cards existing and have had no luck. With them confirmed via both yourself and T206 resource I would have to believe their are scans somewhere.

If so then I need to add these to my needed for completion list.

Thanks in advance !!!
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  #1329  
Old 10-06-2021, 04:06 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
My post wasn't a criticism towards Scot or anyone else, I was just pointing out that Bergen, Murray, and Overall hands at waist were previously confirmed on other lists too and they were still on Ted's list until Adam questioned them in 2016.

Hey Pat

You are constantly "obsessed" with trying to prove me wrong. And, once again you have failed.

I shared P#42 cards (trading and/or selling them to Adam), and knowledge of them with Adam Goldenberg circa 2014 - 2017....in order to help him put his P#42 run together.

So, what the hell are you talking about ! ?


Here is one of my posts which contradicts your "bull-crap". Note the DATE.

Posted 7-9-2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
With the recent discovery of Tinker (bat off shoulder) the confirmed total now is 72 subjects with the PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 back.




PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list............

350/460 Series......63 subjects (complete)

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series......9 subjects

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Other Net54 sources claim that the following 4 subjects are confirmed.

Chance (batting)
Bergen (catching)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

My research indicates that these 4 subjects are PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 No-Prints.



TED Z
.
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  #1330  
Old 10-06-2021, 04:36 PM
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Ted 7-9-2015 is when you posted the original list but you edited it several times until 9-21-2017. If you click on the blue arrow in Adams post that I quoted in my post you will see that his post was on 4-9-2016
asking about those three that were on your list.

Last edited by Pat R; 10-06-2021 at 04:36 PM.
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  #1331  
Old 10-06-2021, 05:52 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Yes, I edited my 7-9-15 post to include Tinker.....

Last edited by tedzan; 09-21-2017 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Added Tinker in 350/460 series.


What really annoys me about your "bull-crap", Pat, is that your nasty comments are suggesting that Adam and I were having a dispute over these cards. Which is a blatant LIE !

Hey Net54ers....let me tell you this.....
I helped Adam Goldenberg with his PIEDMONT #42 collection and his AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 collection in recent years. He and I have met at the National several times, and we
have had some great conversations in person (and via email, or over the telephone).

For this man (Pat) to engage in his constant meaningless attacks towards me on Net54 is reprehensible. This forum is not intended to operate like the various toxic social media.


TED Z
.
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  #1332  
Old 10-06-2021, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Yes, I edited my 7-9-15 post to include Tinker.....

Last edited by tedzan; 09-21-2017 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Added Tinker in 350/460 series.


What really annoys me about your "bull-crap", Pat, is that your nasty comments are suggesting that Adam and I were having a dispute over these cards. Which is a blatant LIE !

Hey Net54ers....let me tell you this.....
I helped Adam Goldenberg with his PIEDMONT #42 collection and his AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 collection in recent years. He and I have met at the National several times, and we
have had some great conversations in person (and via email, or over the telephone).

For this man (Pat) to engage in his constant meaningless attacks towards me on Net54 is reprehensible. This forum is not intended to operate like the various toxic social media.


TED Z
.
Please show me where you are getting this from!!!!
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  #1333  
Old 10-08-2021, 02:35 PM
parkerj33 parkerj33 is offline
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Hey Ted, great work!....i assume you saw this?

jennings (hands over head) brown lenox found

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...5R5K9n_Mykih-A

Just referred back to your post 171, and you of course predicted this gem would be found one day....and today is the day!

Last edited by parkerj33; 10-08-2021 at 02:42 PM.
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  #1334  
Old 10-08-2021, 04:21 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by parkerj33 View Post
Hey Ted, great work!....i assume you saw this?

jennings (hands over head) brown lenox found

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...5R5K9n_Mykih-A

Just referred back to your post 171, and you of course predicted this gem would be found one day....and today is the day!

Hi Jim

Thanks for posting this information. Yes, it's a great feeling when you predict something in the T206 set, and it becomes true.

Here is my current checklist regarding the confirmed brown LENOX cards......

350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder).......... ?
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

I still expect these 7 subjects from the 350/460 series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Berger
Mullin (bat)
Pelty (vertical)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I still expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.
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  #1335  
Old 10-08-2021, 05:46 PM
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Ted before you accuse me of attacking you here you know I sent you a private email over a year ago about using information I posted about the Brown Lenox as your own.

I posted this thread on 5-9-15 with no responses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
They're so scarce it could just be a coincidence but all 22 confirmed Brown
Lenox subjects are among the 75 AB 460 subjects.
I then posted on 10-20-2015 about them in an American Beauty thread you started

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
I have mentioned this once before but it didn't receive any opinions either
way so I thought I would try it here.

All of the confirmed Brown Lenox subjects are also AB 460 subjects so I was
thinking it might be possible that some(or all) of the sheets used for the
AB 460's were also used for the Brown Lenox.

While the Brown Lenox is an extremely rare back (22 different subjects confirmed so far) it seems odd that none of the possible 34 non AB 460
subjects has been confirmed with a Brown Lenox. So could it be that not all Black Lenox subjects are possible with Brown Lenox and only AB 460 subjects are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Very interesting observation, Pat.

We do know that some of the sheets used to print the AB 460 backs were also used to print the UZIT backs.

But it remains to be seen if this is also true for the AB 460 cards and the brown LENOX cards, since (to date)
there are only 22 examples of the brown LENOX cards.

Furthermore, it is quite puzzling that 4 subjects (Lajoie, Overall, Pfeister, Wagner) of these 22 brown LENOX
cards have yet to be confirmed with black LENOX backs ? ? ? ?


Incidentally, there are 35 subjects that are AB 460 No-Prints (not 34).



TED Z
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
I agree with you Ted, it's not much to gauge off with only 22 confirmed subjects but with 32% of the subjects being AB 460 no prints you would think at least a couple of the Confirmed Brown Lenox would be from this group if they are a possible front back combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
In any event, I think this connection is worth tracking....who knows where it will lead us.

Only The Monster knows !


TED Z
.
You then started this thread a few months later on 1-16 2016 where you did give me credit for the 28 AB350/460 subjects

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
American Lithographic (ALC) printed the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, PIEDMONT 460 (Factory 42), LENOX, and UZIT cards circa...Feb 1911. Concurrently, ALC started producing
their Gold-bordered cards, beginning with their T80 (Military Series) which were printed with T206-type backs (LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, UZIT) and CAIRO MONOPOL.
The latter T-brand back was printed using BROWN ink.

I contend that the T206 brown LENOX cards are simply the result an ALC printer who had just completed a press run of T80 cards with CAIRO MONOPOL backs, then failed to
switch to Black ink in order to proceed with the following press run of T206 black LENOX cards.

In time, if my theory proves to be true, we could discover as many as 75 subjects with brown LENOX backs. My 75 number tracks with the PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 number.
Which comprises of 63 subjects from the 350/460 series plus 12 subjects from the 460-only series.

Also, it has been suggested by Pat R in another thread, that brown LENOX cards track with the 350/460 series subjects in the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 press run (28 subjects).

In any event, we all know how extremely rare these brown LENOX cards are. And, this fact is consistent with the T80 CAIRO MONOPOL cards, which are very difficult to find.
I don't think that this is just a mere coincidence.


.
.

.



Currently, there are only 23 confirmed T206 subjects with brown LENOX backs......

350/460 series

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


460-only series

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Show us your brown LENOX cards....and, any responses to this thread will be greatly appreciated.


TED Z
.
Then you abandoned that thread and started this one about those 28 subjects and claimed the theory as yours

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240525

Incidentally I told Art Martineau about the Jennings 3 weeks ago but I was waiting for the auction to end before posting about it.
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  #1336  
Old 10-08-2021, 08:44 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Theory......350/460 series Mutually-Exclusive cards

Hey guys,

Once again Pat R has "shot himself in the foot" !

I presented my theory about the Mutually-Exclusive printing of the 350/460 series cards on this forum on April 7, 2010. Pat's above post (#1336) is full of fabrications.
And it has become very tiresome.

Here are several excerpts from my Net54 thread on April 7-8th, 2010. Take the time to read them, then tell us: does this sound like I stole this theory from someone else ?


Here is my original presentation......
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post

4-7-2010

Regarding your..........

"I'm glad Jim R asked first because I respect his knowledge when it
comes to the tougher backs so the answer must not be obvious.
Why are they no-prints?"


It gets somewhat complicated; however, here's my answer to you..........

My observations of of several surveys of BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards......combined with my research
while putting together my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set has resulted in what appears to be a well-defined pattern.

My theory is......American Lithographic (ALC) printed simultaneous press runs of BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU cards
with fronts common to both (Winter of 1910). In the Spring of 1911, ALC printed simultaneous press runs of AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (with fronts common to both).

Furthermore, because of the timeline difference (4 months) the BL 460 / Red HINDU pairs are mutually exclusive with the
AB 460 / UZIT pairs. Therefore, assuming my theory is true, this pattern allows us to predict which front/back combos
were printed, As a consequence, we are also have the ability to determine which front/back combos are NO-PRINTS.

The three lists of BROAD LEAF 460 that I have posted in this thread are the results of this research. I have a very high
confidence factor that these lists are an accurate representation of "The Monster" with respect to not only the BL 460
cards; but also, the AB 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards.

Thanks for your excellent question,

TED Z
Art Martineau responded 4-8-2010.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelsart View Post
Hello Ted,
Always enjoy reading your postings on the T206 back breakdowns.

I am confused by your BL460/Hindu red and AB460/Uzit patterns.

I show some cards in the 350/460 series that have been confirmed with multiples of these backs. For example:

Burch, fielding confirmed with BL460, Hindu Red, Lenox, Uzit.
Mullin, batting - my list shows I have seen this one with BL460, and have a Uzit.
Cobb, red - confirmed with BL460, Lenox, Uzit, and a PSA graded Hindu red.
Downey, batting - confirmed with BL460, Hindu Red, Lenox, Uzit.

Since we have no recorded front/back information until Bill Heitman began in 1980 we are still searching to confirm many of these possiblities. Every year we find some "new" combinations and add to these lists.
Art
I responded to Art Martineau 4-8-2010.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Here is what my research indicates......

Cobb (red portrait)......
Indeed, I have listed this card with a BL 460 back......but, I have to disagree with you that it exists with either a Red HINDU
back or, a UZIT back. The PSA graded Red HINDU (the only one ever seen), that was in last year's auction, is very suspect.
And, none of the Six Super Prints (of which this Cobb is one) were printed with the UZIT back.

Downey (batting)......
Do you have this card with a UZIT back ? I've never seen this card with a UZIT back.

Mullin (batting)......
I have this card with AB 460 and UZIT backs. I've never seen this card with a BL460 back.

Burch (fielding)......
The only one of these 4 backs I have of this card is an AB 460. I know that the Super-Set indicates that BL 460, Red HINDU,
and UZIT have been seen. But, neither of these 3 backs have been confirmed by anyone.

The approx. 4800 inputs on the Super-Set (S-S) are 99.5 % accurate. However, I have been suspect of some of this data.
So, I have contacted about a dozen people who have inputted such data to the S-S; and, it turned out in 6 cases that their
inputs were mistaken.
I tell you this because I'm skeptical about the BL 460 and/or the Red HINDU backs regarding Burch. Can you positively verify
if Burch exists with a BL 460 and/or a Red HINDU ?

Perhaps, Burch is the one anomaly to my AB 460 / UZIT or BL 460 / Red HINDU pattern theory. At this point, I cannot tell from
the data that exists. I'm hoping you can clarify this subject ?

Best regards,

TED Z

This story continues. If it is of any interest to any of you guys, click on this link: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122474

Meanwhile, let's hope Pat R is eventually cured of his "Ted derangement syndrome" that constantly attacks me with his fabricated "bull-s**t" posts,
that "hi-jacks" that given thread's meaningful conversation on said Topic.


TED Z
.
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  #1337  
Old 10-08-2021, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hey guys,

Once again Pat R has "shot himself in the foot" !

I presented my theory about the Mutually-Exclusive printing of the 350/460 series cards on this forum on April 7, 2010. Pat's above post (#1336) is full of fabrications.
And it has become very tiresome.

Here are several excerpts from my Net54 thread on April 7-8th, 2010. Take the time to read them, then tell us: does this sound like I stole this theory from someone else ?


Here is my original presentation......


Art Martineau responded 4-8-2010.....


I responded to Art Martineau 4-8-2010.....



This story continues. If it is of any interest to any of you guys, click on this link: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122474

Meanwhile, let's hope Pat R is eventually cured of his "Ted derangement syndrome" that constantly attacks me with his fabricated "bull-s**t" posts,
that "hi-jacks" that given thread's meaningful conversation on said Topic.


TED Z
.
And I'm the one that attacks you?

This post has nothing to do with the Brown Lenox and you know it.

At least I show you enough respect to answer your questions. In the thread you posted a link to why did you go back and "correct a typo" on 1-14-2021 in all the posts that have your list in them in a thread that was last posted in on 4-24-2010?
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  #1338  
Old 10-08-2021, 10:21 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
And I'm the one that attacks you?

This post has nothing to do with the Brown Lenox and you know it.

At least I show you enough respect to answer your questions. In the thread you posted a link to why did you go back and "correct a typo" on 1-14-2021 in all the posts that have your list in them in a thread that was last posted in on 4-24-2010?
Hey guy,
I am not the one who starts these negative, meaningless diatribes. There are very few threads in which I have posted in recent years in which you have had anything positive or
meaningful in your responses to my posts. You are constantly "hi-jacking" an interesting (or meaningful) discussion to insert your "negativism".

To be honest with you, yes I the react to your horse-crap. But, seriously speaking, I feel sorry for you. You have a certain talent in doing research in this hobby that is good. But,
you negate all that with your constant meaningless attacks.

I try to avoid such attacks....but, when you accuse me of "stealing" my theory from some one else, I am not going to allow you to get away with such a dishonest accusation.

As they say, if you have nothing good to say about some one, then don't say it at all. This forum was not intended to operate like the toxic social media ones do.

Finally, I have never initiated a negative comment on you. So, why do you persist to attack me ? ?


TED Z
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  #1339  
Old 10-09-2021, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hey guy,
I am not the one who starts these negative, meaningless diatribes. There are very few threads in which I have posted in recent years in which you have had anything positive or
meaningful in your responses to my posts. You are constantly "hi-jacking" an interesting (or meaningful) discussion to insert your "negativism".

To be honest with you, yes I the react to your horse-crap. But, seriously speaking, I feel sorry for you. You have a certain talent in doing research in this hobby that is good. But,
you negate all that with your constant meaningless attacks.

I try to avoid such attacks....but, when you accuse me of "stealing" my theory from some one else, I am not going to allow you to get away with such a dishonest accusation.

As they say, if you have nothing good to say about some one, then don't say it at all. This forum was not intended to operate like the toxic social media ones do.

Finally, I have never initiated a negative comment on you. So, why do you persist to attack me ? ?


TED Z
.

Once again you throw up a smoke screen to avoid answering a question that makes you look sneaky. Why would you edit several posts in a thread 10 years after it was last active I can't think of many reasons why someone would do this.
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  #1340  
Old 10-09-2021, 05:24 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Once again you throw up a smoke screen to avoid answering a question that makes you look sneaky. Why would you edit several posts in a thread 10 years after it was last active I can't think of many reasons why someone would do this.
To UPDATE information....or is that to complicated for your "obsessive mind" to comprehend !

Now, do you mind if the rest of us return to the main Topic on this thread ! ?


TED Z

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.
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  #1341  
Old 10-09-2021, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
To UPDATE information....or is that to complicated for your "obsessive mind" to comprehend !

Now, do you mind if the rest of us return to the main Topic on this thread ! ?


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

No Ted it's not to complicated I know exactly what you changed and I knew you wouldn't admit it. You removed Ames from one list and added him to another and put corrected typo as a reason for editing it.


In your edited post there are 9 cards that you expect to be found with a BL460 back but in Johns unedited post he asks you about the 8 cards you listed and you forgot to change the exclusive 8 to 9 in your own post when you edited it 10 years later to add Ames to the list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
I really appreciate all your complimentary words here. They have engendered a great feeling in me. Some folks try to dazzle
you with their PSA8 graded cards....I'd rather dazzle you with some high-level research into the mystery's of BB card issues.

John W
I am upping the ante on this REWARD to $20 for CONFIRMED info on the 28 cards that I claim are BL 460 "NO-PRINTS". I am
quite confident that these 28 cards wont be found with BL 460 backs (simply because my research suggests that they were
never printed).

Hey guys, I may be proven wrong on this......and, I welcome that. However, I do not expect to go broke paying out Andrew
Jackson greenbacks.


Please note....I still think that there is a good probability that any (or all) of the following cards will eventually be found with
BL 460 backs....and, my offer stands to pay anyone $20 for the verification of any of these....."Elusive Eight".

[B]1 Ames (hands over head)
2 Bender (no trees)
3 Chance (portrait-yellow)
4 Chase (portrait-blue)
5 Chase (dark cap)
6 Cobb (bat off shoulder)
7 Donlin (bat)
8 Doyle (bat)
9 Magee (bat)[/B]


Best regards to all of you,

TED Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Regarding your......

" I understand that you know which 26 different BL460s exist, and which 8 are likely to exist, but do you have any population
numbers (total graded and/or non-graded) on any of the known cards? "

I do not do POP reports, so I can't provide you any population #'s. Anyhow PSA #'s, for the most part, would be unrepresent-
ative. In 30 years of collecting T206's, I've seen at least one example of 20 of the 26 listed BL 460 cards.

In a about 5 cases, I have seen 2 examples. Perhaps, I might just start a survey here to see what kind of population exists
among the BL 460 cards.



TED Z
And speaking of obsessed you have called out t206resource on a number of occasions and even offered a $500 reward twice for an Ames AB460 they have on their list.

Funny thing is you said you owned one and had it on your AB460 list for years and went back and edited all of your lists that had him on it.

But you couldn't edit this one where you claim to own it in your complete AB460 subset because it's on the old board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archive View Post
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

There are 103 possible T206's that could have been printed with the American Beauty 460 back. But,
there are always those "nasty" No-Prints that keep you guessing. After 4 years of hunting for AB 460
cards, it appears that 33 Subjects are No-Prints. This of course is subject to revision, if additional AB
460's are found.

So, it's taken me 4 years to acquire 70 cards. It took me only 11 months to put together a 521 card
T206 Piedmont set. So, that gives you an idea how tough these AB 460 cards are.

Since the AB 460 back has a Factory 42 (North Carolina) identification, we can presume these cards
were issued at the very end of the T206 production run (circa 1911). So, I thought it would be cool
to collect this final T206 issue.


[linked image]
[linked image]

[linked image]


Listed here are the 70 cards in my set. The 350/460 Series is first and the 460-only Series follows.....

350/460 Series......30 cards

Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two habds)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (throwing)

460-only Series......40 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait w/cap)

I'd very much appreciate any additions to this sub-set....as I said, I am not 100% certain that these
70 cards complete this run. Actually, I would have expected more of them from the 460-only Series.

So, once more I'm asking you T206 collectors to check-out you sets and see if you have any AB 460
cards that are not on my list ?

Thanks,

TED Z


Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
T206Resource (and other sources on Net54) continue the myth that Ames (hands over head) is "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) back.
Furthermore, these sources also claim that this same Ames card has been confirmed with the UZIT back.

These are IMPOSSIBLE front/back combos !

I'm so certain that the above front/back combos do NOT exist, that I am willing to offer a $500 reward to anyone here who can show me a legitimate card
of Ames with an AB 460 or UZIT back.....thereby disproving my theory.


> > > > > >


. . > > > > > > > > > >


A year ago I offered a $500 reward....check-out this thread > http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240984. Obviously, no such Ames card(s) showed up.
One enduring quality of most National's is that you can find virtually every BB card ever issued. So, I figured I would give this experiment one more try.

The Ames (hands over head) is a 350/460 series subject. My research indicates American Lithographic printed the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 backs and
the Red HINDU backs simultaneously......"matched pairs".

Ames has been confirmed with the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 back. It has not yet been confirmed with the Red HINDU back. But, it's just a matter of time
that this Ames card with a Red HINDU back will be discovered.


. . . .



Furthermore, Ames card is not the only incorrect info in T206Resource....4 subjects in T206Resource's PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 listing are identified as "confirmed".

These 4 cards, which T206Resource claims to be confirmed, have never been seen ** with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 backs......

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

For the most part, T206Resource is a dependable site to rely on.....but, they are absolutely mis-informing T206 collectors on these 6 cards noted in this thread.

You can contact me via email.... tedzan11@comcast.net. Or, look for me at the National. I'll be wandering about with $1000 burning a hole in my pocket.
So, if you have either one of these Ames cards to show me, and the card is authentic, then the $500 reward is yours....payable on the spot with cash.


** Note.... In the following post here these facts presented here will be reinforced.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

You accuse me of attacking you but find it okay to attack t206resource for the same mistake that you made for years.
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  #1342  
Old 10-20-2021, 07:50 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Posts: 10,053
Default Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty


Hey guys.....I'm just trying to interject some humor here, and as LEON has suggested....each post should display some BB cards.

Anyhow.....1000's of T206 collectors would love to have what I refer to as the "orange Wagner".....but, there are less than 100 of them available. And, at ridiculous prices.
So we have to be content with another fine-fielding Shortstop by the same name who I refer to as the "blue Wagner". Cards of Charles "Heinie" Wagner are very available.
The "Bat on Right" pose is in the 350/460 series in print Group B. Comprising of 16 (or 17) different T206 backs. The toughest being....AB 460....DRUM....LENOX....UZIT.
I have the AB 460. The DRUM, LENOX, and UZIT will be a quite a challenge to find.

I've always liked the two T206 poses of this Wagner that essentially complement each another. I cannot recall of any other T206 images of the same player similar to this
where the pose of one card is essentially the inverse of the other one. I thought this may indicate that he batted both ways. Not so, he was strictly a Right-handed batter.
Of course, there are 2 identical action poses of Chase and Matty with different colored caps. And Tinker with bat off & on. However, I do not see these pairs as equivalent
to the blue Wagners' uniquely related images.
Having said all that, it's time to display some blue Wagner cards. I have a lot of these to display, but Net54 limits us to 18 images/post. I will show more in my next post.


------------
.




.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 10-22-2021 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #1343  
Old 10-20-2021, 10:18 PM
stutor stutor is offline
Sonny Tutor
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Location: Mississippi
Posts: 265
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Great cards (as always) Ted. The Jennings 350/460 poses come to mind. They obviously aren’t as close as the Wagner cards you posted, but they are similar. I’ll add a Wagner pic so I’m not getting off track too badly.
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  #1344  
Old 10-21-2021, 07:05 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Posts: 10,053
Default Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do

Quote:
Originally Posted by stutor View Post
Great cards (as always) Ted. The Jennings 350/460 poses come to mind. They obviously aren’t as close as the Wagner cards you posted, but they are similar. I’ll add a Wagner pic so I’m not getting off track too badly.

Good morning, Sonny

You're "not getting off track"....the two Jennings (350/460 series) cards are somewhat similar. But, not the identical inverse images as the two Wagner cards are.

Anyhow, thanks for posting, and your Wagner proof card is really cool.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Last edited by tedzan; 10-21-2021 at 07:29 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #1345  
Old 10-21-2021, 08:46 AM
jggames jggames is offline
Jason
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Hey Ted, Here’s the Uzit from my binder.
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  #1346  
Old 10-21-2021, 07:09 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do

Quote:
Originally Posted by jggames View Post
Hey Ted, Here’s the Uzit from my binder.

Hi Jason

Thanks for posting your UZIT card of Wagner. It's not often that you see one of these gems.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.
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  #1347  
Old 10-21-2021, 07:48 PM
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Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
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I used to have this Wagner. It was almost enough to start me on a backrun; I am thankful I did not undertake that frolic

Nice cards Sonny!
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  #1348  
Old 10-21-2021, 08:33 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
I used to have this Wagner. It was almost enough to start me on a backrun; I am thankful I did not undertake that frolic

Nice cards Sonny!
Marvelous, Ryan......thanks for posting your Pirate Wagner.


And, here's a pack for it......

. .



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.
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  #1349  
Old 10-21-2021, 08:38 PM
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Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
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Hi Ted!

My current t215 Pirate - an upgrade from the “other Wagner”
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  #1350  
Old 10-22-2021, 06:20 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Deleted.

Double post.

Last edited by tedzan; 10-22-2021 at 06:42 AM.
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