NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #951  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:43 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE...Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


....Sweet Caporal ...... Sovereign ......... Piedmont_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____ Sovereign…. American Beauty .…. UZIT


[/B]This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 821.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?

Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run

Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's

Posts #1035 >> 1040.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 02-06-2021 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Updated INDEX.
Reply With Quote
  #952  
Old 03-10-2020, 06:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


Here we have two NY Highlanders. A rookie, Russ Ford, who compiled an unprecedented pitching record of 48 wins in his first two seasons (1910 and 1911).
And, the enigmatic Hal Chase......who (imo) should be in the HOF.


Russ Ford is a member of the 12 guys in the Exclusive 12 club. My Red Ink Twins with this group of T206's is complete.

460-only Series

.








The guys in the 350/460 Series group (35 subjects) are considerably tougher to find with the Red Ink Twins cards.
This project is a long-term work in progress. I have a few from this Series. This Hal Chase "twin" pair is my favorite.

.

.



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-20-2020 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Added information.
Reply With Quote
  #953  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




Chick Gandil is quite tough to find Red Ink Twins member of the Exclusive 12 group. The reason for this is his connection to the "Black Sox" scandal of 1919......


. . . .

. .



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-20-2020 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Added information.
Reply With Quote
  #954  
Old 03-12-2020, 06:08 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Red Ink Twins...... Two more members of the Exclusive 12 club. HOFer's Zach Wheat and Hugh Duffy......


.


.




TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #955  
Old 03-13-2020, 05:37 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


Well, I guess I'm the only one that collects these Red Ink Twins. Anyway, I will continue to Show-n-Tell of some more of my cards.

James Otis "Doc" Crandall was McGraw's ace relief Pitcher (1908 - 1913). He was also a pretty good hitter. McGraw would often send him to bat as a pinch-hitter.
And yes, these two guys are also members of the Exclusive 12 club.


.



.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #956  
Old 03-14-2020, 05:37 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


OK, here we have two Pennsylvanians. I am quite sure that Pennsylvania is the birthplace of most of the BaseBall players pictured in the T206 set. Do check-this-out.

Quite a number of years ago, this "Twins" premise was a consequence of my theory regarding the Exclusive 12 group in the 460-only series. Furthermore, I found that
"Twins" extended into the 350/460 series cards which were printed with the red HINDU backs. It's stuff like this that fascinates me regarding the T206 set. For it gives
us valuable insight into how these cards were printed, and when they were issued. Thus, it enables us to gain a better understanding of "The Monster".



----

. . ----------



----


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #957  
Old 03-14-2020, 09:21 PM
OldOriole OldOriole is offline
D@ve Se@born
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 262
Default Pennsylvanians on T206s

Hi Ted,

I was intrigued by your last post about Pennsylvania being the most common birthplace of T206 players. I had an hour or two to kill and took a look at the birthplaces of all of them (save the couple which are unkown). Turns out you are correct!! Here are the numbers for the most common birthplaces (I'll spare you the whole list):

1) Pennsylvania - 70 individuals
2) Ohio - 46
3) New York - 44
4) Illinois - 27
5) Massachusetts - 18
6) Missouri - 15
7) Michigan - 13
8) California - 11
8 tie) Wisconsin - 11
10) Indiana - 10
11) Texas - 9
12) Canada! - 8 (along with Maryland and Iowa)
Reply With Quote
  #958  
Old 03-15-2020, 09:33 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOriole View Post
Hi Ted,

I was intrigued by your last post about Pennsylvania being the most common birthplace of T206 players. I had an hour or two to kill and took a look at the birthplaces of all of them (save the couple which are unkown). Turns out you are correct!! Here are the numbers for the most common birthplaces (I'll spare you the whole list):

1) Pennsylvania - 70 individuals
2) Ohio - 46
3) New York - 44
4) Illinois - 27
5) Massachusetts - 18
6) Missouri - 15
7) Michigan - 13
8) California - 11
8 tie) Wisconsin - 11
10) Indiana - 10
11) Texas - 9
12) Canada! - 8 (along with Maryland and Iowa)

Hi Dave

I really appreciate your research. I was making an educated guess in the above post, based on my knowledge of most of the 388 different ballplayers in the T206 set.

Included in those 70 Pensylvanians are Matty, Plank, and Wagner. I would attribute this large representation to the coal mining regions in Pennsylvania which had well
developed semi-pro baseball.

It was great seeing you and your four daughters at the Philly Show, recently. We had a lot of fun.....and, I was surprised that two of your daughters are Yankees fans.

Take care,


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #959  
Old 03-16-2020, 06:10 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


Continuing from Post #955 with NY Giants players....here are two more Red Ink Twins guys. The Donlin (with bat) pose is one of my favorite T206's.
This red HINDU card of his is my 1st red HINDU, which I acquired many, many moons ago.
"Turkey Mike's" story as a BB player and a Show Biz Actor is fascinating. Had he taken his BB career more seriously, though, he would be in the HOF (career BA = .333).


350/460 Series subject

------




Exclusive 12 subject

------
. .



TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #960  
Old 03-17-2020, 07:09 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.
.........Six members of the Red Ink Twins club.…..…


John Hummel, I'm proud to say he is a Pennsylvanian (like other players shown here). He had a long career with Brooklyn (1905 - 1915). John was a "Jack of all fields".
He played every position on the field (except for Catcher). His ML career ended in 1918 with the Yankees.


----




There were two "Jeff" Pfeffer (brothers) in the ML in the deadball era. This T206 card features Francis X. "Big Jeff" Pfeffer (1905 - 1911, Outfielder & Pitcher W-L 31-39).
His younger brother is Edward "Jeff" Pfeffer (1911 - 1924, Pitcher W-L 158 - 112).


------




TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-18-2020 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #961  
Old 03-19-2020, 07:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


.........Six members of the Red Ink Twins club.…..…


LAST CALL......for your T206 Red Ink Twins cards. If you have them, then why not show them......Thanks.


------


I have posted all twelve Red Ink Twins in the Exclusive 12 group (Posts #948, 952-956, 958-960) with their HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 backs.
Plus Twins of Hal Chase and "Turkey Mike" Donlin from the 350/460 Series. There are 33 more subjects remaining in this Series. Refer to the Checklist in Post #945
for the guys in this Series. And, you may be surprised to find in your T206 collection that you have a Twin (or two).


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-19-2020 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #962  
Old 04-23-2020, 07:24 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




I recently received a couple of emails from Net54 "readers" (I hate the term "lurker") regarding my theory for why a fair number of the Wagner cards have originated from
the Long Island, NY area. Post #824 here speculates that Joseph Knapp, the founder of the American Lithographic Company (ALC), who had a Summer home in Suffolk Co.
Long Island may have been the source of Wagner cards from that area. What I am suggesting is that when ATC was forced to discontinue printing Wagner's image on T206
cards, ALC had by that time printed up many 1st Series cards which included Wagner (and Plank). Visits to his Summer home, Mr. Knapp would take a number of discarded
Wagner cards with him and handed them out to his children, their friends, and neighbors. If so, these Wagner's eventually found their way into NY residents' collections.

I am sure that some of you may think this theory is a far-fetched result of my "wild" imagination. Whatever, I base this theory on three experiences which I was fortunate to
have in the early 1980's. I'll present the most significant one first in this post. And the other two experiences in a forthcoming post. So bear with me, as you'll find this story
quite interesting.

I was doing research in 1981 regarding a BOWMAN article I was writing for Bob Lemke's BaseBall Cards magazine. The real genius of the BOWMAN Gum Co. was George Moll.
George and Warren Bowman were close business associates. The Moll Advertising Agency in Abington, PA created in 1938 the Horrors of War cards, 1939 - 1941 PLAY BALL
cards, War Gum (1941 - 1943) cards, and 1948 - 1955 BOWMAN Sportscards & Non-Sportscards. Originally, these cards were marketed as GUM, Inc. (1939 - 1943). After
WWII as the BOWMAN Gum Co.
I was invited to George Moll's home to interview him. It was a very informative 2 - 3 hour discussion on how the BOWMAN cards were produced. The artwork, how they were
printed, etc. Afterward, George took me upstairs to his display room where he showed me his awesome collection of uncut sheets of Sports & Non-Sports cards. Albums with
cards from 1938 - 1955 in unbelievable Mint condition. Artwork created by the artists employed at his Advertising Agency. Plus, a good number of BB cards which BOWMAN
never issued. The entire day was an absolutely surreal experience.


Let's have a discussion of your thoughts, personal experiences, etc. regarding the provenance of T206 Wagner cards ?






TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #963  
Old 04-24-2020, 08:31 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





My 2nd experience, which was a factor in forming my Wagner card source theory, occurred in May 1985. An old friend and Show promoter, Bob Bartosz, called me
from his BB card shop in Cherry Hill, NJ. He was very excited as he said.... "Ted, you have to see what just came into my shop, it's really awesome". I told Bob I'd
be there within an hour. An elderly gentleman with 8 original metal printing plates was at Bob's shop. Bob and I were astonished as we realized the significance of
these plates. Each plate (approx. 22" x 17") had 32 images on it. The total number of images on 7 of the 8 plates comprised of the 224-card 1954 BOWMAN set.
The duplicate plate had images of cards #65 - 96. YES, believe it or not, there were 2 plates with the #66 Ted Williams image on them. I emphasize this since you
old-timers may recall that back in the 1970's - 1980's that the explanation for the Ted Williams card being scarce was...… "the printing plate was broken".
Well, that "myth" was certainly dispelled that day in May.
The gentleman was a former BOWMAN employee, who was not in any hurry to part with these 8 plates. Stay tuned for the rest of this story. It has a happy ending.

Plus, there is a 3rd experience which I will post so you can see where I'm coming from regarding my theory.

Meanwhile, you guys who are fortunate to own (or have owned) the T206 Wagner card please share with us your inputs on this subject.





TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 04-25-2020 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #964  
Old 04-24-2020, 07:19 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




My 3rd experience, which factors into forming my Wagner card theory occurred in 1982. I was set-up at a BB card Show at a Mall in Media, PA. Across from my table was
a Hobby Shop. I was curious as to what kind of goodies they were selling. Boy, I was in for a real surprise. Displayed on the wall of the shop as you entered were 5 uncut
BOWMAN sheets. I asked the Mgr. if they were for sale and what was the price ? The Mgr. replied that a former employee of Zabel Bros. Printers (BOWMAN's printer) had
brought the BB card sheets into the shop just day before, and he would have to do some homework. The following day he came over to my table, looked over my display
of cards and asked me if I would be interested in a cash/trade deal ? I said it sounds good to me. I had a Mantle (1951) rookie which he wanted and 1950's Phillies cards.
So, he got the Mantle and the Phillies cards and some $$, and I took all 5 sheets.

Stay tuned for more info.

I thought you may like to see these sheets (I sold the 1953 BOWMAN sheet, so here are the other four)......












Large card version





TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #965  
Old 04-26-2020, 07:09 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




OK getting back to the subject matter here, the most significant original sheet which has surfaced these past 35 years is the one that the Gretzky T206 Honus Wagner card
was hand-cut from. It's a shame that this sheet was not left un-cut for at least a picture of it.
The closest I ever got to a Wagner card was in 1985 at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania. Friday afternoon, before the Show opened, Bill Mastro was shopping around
this famous Wagner card (before it was famous). He was going from room to room at the Lodge, and he came to our room where 4 of us dealers were trading cards. We all
examined this card very closely and were very impressed with it. Bill was asking $30K for it (an unprecedented amount at that time for a BB card).
Besides, after Bill left the room the consensus of our opinions were that it had been hand-cut. The PIEDMONT 150 back intrigued me since 95% of the Wagner cards known
back then had SWEET CAPORAL backs.

Needless to say, this card was the "talk of the Show" all weekend in Willow Grove. Furthermore it was rumored that an Eddie Plank card was Wagner's "sheet-mate". Mastro
did not show it, though (at least not to us guys). Many years later we did get to see this Plank card. It was in Charlie Conlon's collection. And, here it is.......





Hey guys, I would appreciate some responses to what I have presented here. If you think my theory regarding the possibility of Mr. Knapp taking home some Wagner cards
hot off the presses at American Lithographic is sort of "kooky", then I will listen to your story why a fair number of Wagner cards have originated from the NYC area.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #966  
Old 04-26-2020, 08:38 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened.

It's also possible that some had been shipped to the cigarette factory for packaging and that a distributor who serviced the Long Island area just happened to have their order filled from packs that had already been packed with the Wagner before it was pulled.

I know I took home a few things from the place I worked. Flourescent orange sticker material trimmed from the sheet of some sticker we printed. A "Danger active class 4 laser range" sign. Some maps of a sewage and drainage system and an airbase.. Interesting stuff. If we had done cards of any kind I would have asked for whatever I could get, and they probably would have let me have most of the production materials as long as the client didn't want them. The only stuff that got saved was the masks an color separations in case of a reorder.
Reply With Quote
  #967  
Old 04-27-2020, 07:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened.

It's also possible that some had been shipped to the cigarette factory for packaging and that a distributor who serviced the Long Island area just happened to have their order filled from packs that had already been packed with the Wagner before it was pulled.

I know I took home a few things from the place I worked. Flourescent orange sticker material trimmed from the sheet of some sticker we printed. A "Danger active class 4 laser range" sign. Some maps of a sewage and drainage system and an airbase.. Interesting stuff. If we had done cards of any kind I would have asked for whatever I could get, and they probably would have let me have most of the production materials as long as the client didn't want them. The only stuff that got saved was the masks an color separations in case of a reorder.

Hi Steve
I appreciate your response....."Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened."

Yes most of us take home "goodies" from our work places. I used to take home Electronic power units, Transistors, and a Magnetron (transmitter unit of a 10-Gigahertz Radar set).

Your 2nd paragraph is not really possible in this situation. The Wagner (Plank, etc.) are PIEDMONT Factory #25 cards that were shipped to the Richmond, Virginia ATC factory #25.
PIEDMONT F#25 cards were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in the Southern states & Pennsylvania.
Factory #30 cards (LENOX, SWEET CAP, TOLSTOI, UZIT) were marketed in New York, New Jersey and New England.
Any way, that's my understanding how ATC distributed their various brands.

Take care, Steve


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #968  
Old 04-29-2020, 07:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Steve B

When you worked in a Print shop, did you guys trash all mis-prints, errors, etc....or, take some with you ?

I had a part-time job in a Print shop during my High School days. Being the "pack-rat" that I am, I would
take home some of the printing rejects. At that age, I was really fascinated by the printing business.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #969  
Old 04-29-2020, 08:46 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Steve B

When you worked in a Print shop, did you guys trash all mis-prints, errors, etc....or, take some with you ?

I had a part-time job in a Print shop during my High School days. Being the "pack-rat" that I am, I would
take home some of the printing rejects. At that age, I was really fascinated by the printing business.


TED Z
.
It was also my HS job, part time during school, and full time in the summer. The place cross trained us, and most of the full time guys were able to handle other jobs in the place. Some had started as sweepers.
I eventually worked a bit of time in every department except the front office. I also didn't get to run the paper cutter, but was around them every day.


The other guys as far as I know didn't take any misprints home. A lot of them got turned over and used as make-ready sheets. I took home a few finished things that may have been misprints or may have been just overruns. (Everyone starts printing something like 125 sheets if the order is for 100 ) but no misprints. If they were misprints, the problems were very minor. We were a fairly high quality low production shop. Many jobs were under 10,000 finished pieces.

None of the other guys were at all interested in problems. They knew what caused them, avoided it if possible, and didn't let the bad stuff get delivered.
There was that one time a couple of them made fake concert tickets and sold them to a scalper... I only knew because I found one of the plates when I grabbed it out of the scrap stack to use as a dustpan. But that wasn't defective stuff, just highly irregular.

They were very tolerant of me bringing in a messed up card a couple times and asking " How did this happen?" Although they did think it was weird that I collected cards with printing errors.

If we had printed any sort of cards, or something interesting like that as much of the scrap/plates etc as I could carry/ask for/sneak out would have come home with me.
Reply With Quote
  #970  
Old 04-29-2020, 08:59 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Steve
I appreciate your response....."Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened."


Your 2nd paragraph is not really possible in this situation. The Wagner (Plank, etc.) are PIEDMONT Factory #25 cards that were shipped to the Richmond, Virginia ATC factory #25.
PIEDMONT F#25 cards were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in the Southern states & Pennsylvania.
Factory #30 cards (LENOX, SWEET CAP, TOLSTOI, UZIT) were marketed in New York, New Jersey and New England.
Any way, that's my understanding how ATC distributed their various brands.

Take care, Steve


TED Z
.
I've never really tried to find out how many of the SC Wagners are factory 30. Just a quick google search found at least two, and a couple SC25s.

The split between factory 30 and 25 and where each was discovered would be really interesting, as the distribution you talk about sounds right.
If there are a lot of 25s coming from long Island or New England, that would be a big point for someone taking sheets or cards home with them.
I think factory 25 must have had some distribution in that area though, when I started being interested, piedmonts were of course common, and made up the bulk of the collections that came in to the local dealer.
Reply With Quote
  #971  
Old 04-30-2020, 07:40 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I've never really tried to find out how many of the SC Wagners are factory 30. Just a quick google search found at least two, and a couple SC25s.

The split between factory 30 and 25 and where each was discovered would be really interesting, as the distribution you talk about sounds right.
If there are a lot of 25s coming from long Island or New England, that would be a big point for someone taking sheets or cards home with them.
I think factory 25 must have had some distribution in that area though, when I started being interested, piedmonts were of course common, and made up the bulk of the collections that came in to the local dealer.

Steve

My theory regarding the distribution is based on several original "finds" that I have been fortunate to acquire, and other "finds" that I was told of by collectors/dealers in the country.
Two of my major PIEDMONT (Factory #25) finds were from South Carolina and Georgia. And, a significant SOVEREIGN (Factory #25) find was from Erie, Pennsylvania.

It would be nice to know the Factory (#25 or #30) breakdown of all the known T206 Wagner cards; and, see how that relates to their place of origin.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #972  
Old 04-30-2020, 07:47 PM
RCMcKenzie's Avatar
RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
Rob
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 3,023
Default

Ted, here's an article I read that suggests that there are 57 known, and most of them are SC 150/25. I don't know as I've never really studied this card. I've thought of owning a 52 Mantle or a 33 Lajoie, but never thought I'd own a T206 Wagner...Rob

http://www.cardboardconnection.com/c...6-honus-wagner
__________________
Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades)
Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc
Reply With Quote
  #973  
Old 05-02-2020, 07:43 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
Ted, here's an article I read that suggests that there are 57 known, and most of them are SC 150/25. I don't know as I've never really studied this card. I've thought of owning a 52 Mantle or a 33 Lajoie, but never thought I'd own a T206 Wagner...Rob

http://www.cardboardconnection.com/c...6-honus-wagner

Hi Rob

Thanks for the link to that article. However, what is the numerical breakdown between SC 150/25 and SC 150/30 ? His "most of them are SC 150/25" doesn't really tell us this.
I'm not trying to be "difficult"....it's just that I have seen this breakdown regarding the Plank SC 150 cards and if I recall correctly there are a fair number of Factory #30 backs
in that population.
We do know that Wagner and Plank were on the same sheet when the 150 Series cards were printed and issued. Therefore, I would expect a corresponding breakdown with the
Wagner and Plank cards.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #974  
Old 05-02-2020, 10:27 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Rob

Thanks for the link to that article. However, what is the numerical breakdown between SC 150/25 and SC 150/30 ? His "most of them are SC 150/25" doesn't really tell us this.
I'm not trying to be "difficult"....it's just that I have seen this breakdown regarding the Plank SC 150 cards and if I recall correctly there are a fair number of Factory #30 backs
in that population.
We do know that Wagner and Plank were on the same sheet when the 150 Series cards were printed and issued. Therefore, I would expect a corresponding breakdown with the
Wagner and Plank cards.


TED Z
.
Which makes another puzzle. If they really were on the same sheet, Plank and Wagner should be roughly equally uncommon. Yet there are about double the number of Planks. (75 to 35 for PSA, and the grade distribution is also different. )

Call me contrary, but I think they were on different sheets, both sheets being subject to some misfortune in having to be pulled from production.
Considering how there are small differences between series, and even occasionally within a series, I suspect there are "commons" with specific identifiers that are just as uncommon as a Wagner or Plank.
Reply With Quote
  #975  
Old 05-02-2020, 11:06 PM
ctownboy ctownboy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 972
Default

Steve,

According to Ted's theory, not only should there be about the same number of Wagner's as there are Plank's, but if the gentleman DID take home sheets then there should ALSO be a number of Planks coming from the same location as the Wagners, shouldn't there?

David
Reply With Quote
  #976  
Old 05-02-2020, 11:07 PM
RCMcKenzie's Avatar
RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
Rob
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 3,023
Default

Steve, Plank is also found with a 350 back from what I've read. I've seen estimates that there are about twice as many known Planks, counting all the backs.

Ted, I thought I had seen a site that breaks down all of the known backs, but there is not one that I could find. There's a site that lists the fairly recent sales with nicknames for the cards and grades, like Chesapeake Wagner, Oceanside Wagner, Nun's Wagner, etc.

PSA's pop is not very helpful. They show zero Piedmonts graded, 15 SC, but only 6 cards are broken down as 4 SC 150/25 and 2 SC 150/30. I'm surprised to learn that the back breakdowns are not publicly known. Rob
__________________
Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades)
Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc
Reply With Quote
  #977  
Old 05-02-2020, 11:24 PM
RCMcKenzie's Avatar
RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
Rob
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 3,023
Default

Here are the PSA pops from PSA for Plank.. 1 Piedmont 150 graded "A" presumably handcut like the Piedmont Wagner's. SC 150/25 none graded. SC 150/30 3 graded. SC 350/30 13 graded.

I think the assumption is that the production numbers for sc 150 Wagners and Planks are about the same. Again, I'm surprised all of this data is not already widely known. Maybe people that own these cards can chime in with their backs and factory numbers. Rob
__________________
Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades)
Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc
Reply With Quote
  #978  
Old 05-03-2020, 10:05 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
Steve, Plank is also found with a 350 back from what I've read. I've seen estimates that there are about twice as many known Planks, counting all the backs.

Ted, I thought I had seen a site that breaks down all of the known backs, but there is not one that I could find. There's a site that lists the fairly recent sales with nicknames for the cards and grades, like Chesapeake Wagner, Oceanside Wagner, Nun's Wagner, etc.

PSA's pop is not very helpful. They show zero Piedmonts graded, 15 SC, but only 6 cards are broken down as 4 SC 150/25 and 2 SC 150/30. I'm surprised to learn that the back breakdowns are not publicly known. Rob

Rob

It's really strange that the most heralded card in the hobby doesn't have an accurate accounting of it. And, you are correct, the PSA pop report does not even have the famous
PIEDMONT 150 Wagner PSA 8 listed. In fact, they have No PIEDMONT 150 Wagner's listed. Not in the pop report that I have a link of. And, I know of at least two additional
Wagner cards with PIEDMONT 150 backs.

Every single Wagner card in the hobby (both PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL) should be well documented.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #979  
Old 05-03-2020, 10:26 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctownboy View Post
Steve,

According to Ted's theory, not only should there be about the same number of Wagner's as there are Plank's, but if the gentleman DID take home sheets then there should ALSO be a number of Planks coming from the same location as the Wagners, shouldn't there?

David

David

There are about the same number of PIEDMONT 150 Plank's as there are PIEDMONT 150 Wagner's. But, we only know of the origin of the Gretzky Wagner and the Conlon Plank.

PSA = 1 Plank.....No Wagner's (why NO famous PSA 8, and why NO one (or 2) "A" graded cards in PSA's pop report ? ?
SGC = 2 Plank's.....No Wagner's


And, who knows....only the MONSTER knows
Perhaps, more of these PIEDMONT 150 Wagner's and Plank's will eventually be discovered.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #980  
Old 05-05-2020, 06:50 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




Rob

Your observation is accurate regarding the Wagner SWEET CAP Factory #25 (and the Plank) cards are indeed more available than their SWEET CAP Factory #30 cards.
I should know this because it took me many years to find this SWEET CAP 150 Factory #30 card of Plank to complete my all - SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set.

A fair number of SWEET CAP 350, Factory #30 cards were available, but those cards have a "washed-out" appearance. Besides, I have arranged the cards in my T206
sets with respect to the Series they are in (150, 350, 460, etc.); therefore, Plank is placed in the 150 Series. Furthermore, this card was certainly more affordable.


.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #981  
Old 05-06-2020, 03:58 PM
RCMcKenzie's Avatar
RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
Rob
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 3,023
Default

Great Plank, Ted. The Monster can be confounding at times. Although it is generally thought that the SC150/25 back is more difficult across the board, in the case of Wagner and Plank, it is the SC150/30 that is relatively difficult to find.

On a side note, I've been looking at the T206 Magie portrait. Although the error is only found with a Piedmont 150 back, the correct version Magee actually has a lower PSA pop number with the Piedmont 150 back, (Magie 82 graded, Magee 69 graded) I may try to get the Magee Piedmont 150 first, and next I'll try and tackle the Magie...Rob
__________________
Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades)
Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc
Reply With Quote
  #982  
Old 05-06-2020, 05:09 PM
brass_rat's Avatar
brass_rat brass_rat is offline
Steve
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 986
Default

Someone check me on this count, but looking at these examples of Plank:

http://t206resource.com/Plank-Gallery.html

SC 150/25: 2
SC 150/30: 7
SC 150/can't read scan: 4
SC 350/30: 35
Pied: 4

A couple of the 150 examples are scrap/missing color.

Last edited by brass_rat; 05-06-2020 at 05:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #983  
Old 05-06-2020, 06:17 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,315
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brass_rat View Post
Someone check me on this count, but looking at these examples of Plank:

http://t206resource.com/Plank-Gallery.html

SC 150/25: 2
SC 150/30: 7
SC 150/can't read scan: 4
SC 350/30: 35
Pied: 4

A couple of the 150 examples are scrap/missing color.
Plank

SC 150/25: 1
SC 150/30: 9
PD 150: 5
SC 350/30: 35

Wagner

SC 150/25: 16
SC 150/30: 4
PD 150: 2
Reply With Quote
  #984  
Old 05-06-2020, 07:19 PM
RCMcKenzie's Avatar
RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
Rob
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 3,023
Default

Steve and Patrick, thanks for chiming in with those numbers. I am not drawing any conclusions, just speculating. There is really not enough data to conclude a lot, other than Plank is easier to find with a 350 back.

The numbers y'all are presenting do line up more with the sc150/25 to sc150/30 general ratios I've seen. I still think the evidence we have to present is more anecdotal than scientific, but I enjoy the debate. Rob
__________________
Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades)
Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc
Reply With Quote
  #985  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:05 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


In 2007, I posted a thread on this "printer's mark" on the T206 Joe Doyle N.Y. card. I like to refer to this version of the Joe Doyle card as the "poor-man's"
substitute for the Joe Doyle Nat'L card


Regarding the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card, to date there are 9 (or 10) confirmed. The first one was actually in Senator Richard Russell's T-card collection
from his youth. However, it was unknown until his collection was placed on display at the Univ. of Georgia. The 2nd one was discovered by Larry Fritsch in
the early 1980's. The 3rd one was discovered by Bill Huggins in the mid-1980's. The rest is history.

In the scans here, seen in the middle Joe Doyle card is a printer's mark just to the right of the dot following the "Y". However minor this mark may appear,
it exactly lines up with the start of the "N" in the very scarce "Nat'L" variation. And it very slightly drops below the line of the Doyle, N.Y. lettering, as does
the leading serif of the letter "N" in the word "Nat'L" in the actual variation.

Since 2007, I've run a Survey measuring the availability of Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark. The results (shown below) indicate that on the average
of 1 out of 16 cards have this mark.

So guys, how about a Show-n-Tell of your T206 Joe Doyle cards. Let's continue this Survey by posting a few more "printer's mark" Joe Doyle cards.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)



Here's the results of my 12-year survey on this Joe Doyle "printer's mark". Last UPDATE in late 2019 (351 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........10..........136

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........134

Polar Bear..............4............29

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........15

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 22 ........ 329


22 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark = 22/351 = 6.3 %


Thanks for your interest, and let's hear your responses.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-18-2020 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #986  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:50 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *




Since no one has posted their Joe Doyle cards, here are mine from my PIEDMONT and SOVERIGN sets. Obviously, these guys do not have the "printer's mark".
I can say for certain that the SOVEREIGN Joe Doyle cards will never be found with this tiny "printer's mark". I am certain about this because of its apple green
back, which is indicative of a later print run than the OLD MILL, PIEDMONT, POLAR BEAR, and SWEET CAPORAL print runs.


. .


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #987  
Old 05-12-2020, 09:24 PM
Bpm0014's Avatar
Bpm0014 Bpm0014 is offline
Brendan Mullen
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,846
Default

I have one Ted. I’ll post a pic shortly.
Reply With Quote
  #988  
Old 05-13-2020, 01:06 AM
Sean's Avatar
Sean Sean is offline
Sean Costello
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Woodland, California
Posts: 3,814
Default

IMG_1408.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #989  
Old 05-13-2020, 09:12 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post

Hi Sean

I can add another "printer's mark" Doyle to the Survey. Thanks for posting your "poor man's" substitute for the Joe Doyle Nat'L.






UPDATED May 13, 2020 (352 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........11..........136

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........134

Polar Bear..............4............29

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........15

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 23 ........ 329


23 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 23/352 = 6.5 %



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-18-2020 at 06:32 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #990  
Old 05-14-2020, 07:02 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Six new inputs to this Joe Doyle survey....two via emails, and four Joe Doyle cards that I checked-out.
None of these 6 inputs have the "printer's mark" in their caption.

Hey guys, show us your T206 Joe Doyle cards. Let's see if we can find a few more with this "printer's mark".







UPDATED May 14, 2020 (358 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........11..........138

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........135

Polar Bear..............4............31

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........16

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 23 ........ 335


23 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 23/358 = 6.4 %



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-25-2020 at 08:35 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #991  
Old 05-15-2020, 07:15 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Four more new inputs to this Joe Doyle survey. None of these 4 inputs have the "printer's mark" in their caption.

Hey guys, show us your T206 Joe Doyle cards. Let's see if we can find a few more with this "printer's mark".







UPDATED May 15, 2020 (362 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........11..........141

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........136

Polar Bear..............4............31

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........16

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 23 ........ 339


23 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 23/362 = 6.3 %



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-25-2020 at 08:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #992  
Old 05-18-2020, 06:10 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


Since last week, 6 more Joe Doyle inputs. But still no additional "printer's marks". Sean posted his "printer's mark" Doyle a week ago, and Sean's card is the only one of the
17 new inputs (so far). My 13-year Survey suggests that on an average, 1 out of 16 cards are found with this "printer's mark". Perhaps, the more samples we get, the more
rare these Joe Doyle cards with this "mark" become. Hey guys, how about playing in this game by posting your Joe Doyle's here to continue this survey.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)


UPDATED May 17, 2020 (368 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........11..........144

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........138

Polar Bear..............4............31

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........17

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________
x
Totals.................. 23 ........ 345


23 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 23/368 = 6.2 %


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-26-2020 at 07:23 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #993  
Old 05-19-2020, 12:28 PM
t206fanatic's Avatar
t206fanatic t206fanatic is offline
Jeff Willi@ms
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 297
Default

Ted,

My Doyle is attached, no printer's mark.

Reply With Quote
  #994  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

T206fanatic....Fantastic Joe Doyle card. It's one of the nicest I've ever seen.

Thanks for posting it here, Jeff.


UPDATED May 19, 2020 (369 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........11..........144

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........139

Polar Bear..............4............31

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........17

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________
x
Totals.................. 23 ........ 346


23 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 23/369 = 6.2 %


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-25-2020 at 08:37 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #995  
Old 05-19-2020, 09:36 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki - Uncle Nacki
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,002
Default

I thought I had more but I only have this one card. It doesn't have the extra mark. The previous post with the super nice high grade perfectly centered card reminded me of this card. I bought it for the centering on the front. Edited to add: What a difference the right scanner makes. I've always used scanners that were transparency negatives compatible since the mid 1990's.


__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11


Last edited by Ronnie73; 05-19-2020 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Scanner Thoughts Added.
Reply With Quote
  #996  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:05 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


Hey Ron

Thanks for your POLAR BEAR Joe Doyle input. Did you know that PSA graded an obvious fake Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'L card that has a POLAR BEAR back ?


UPDATED May 20, 2020 (370 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........11..........144

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........139

Polar Bear..............4............32

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........17

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________
x
Totals.................. 23 ........ 347


23 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 23/370 = 6.2 %


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-25-2020 at 08:38 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #997  
Old 05-21-2020, 02:51 AM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki - Uncle Nacki
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,002
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post

Hey Ron

Thanks for your POLAR BEAR Joe Doyle input. Did you know that PSA graded an obvious fake Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'L card that has a POLAR BEAR back ?


TED Z
Hi Ted, I wasn't aware of that. Have you seen the card? Is it super obvious?
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

Reply With Quote
  #998  
Old 05-21-2020, 06:25 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
Hi Ted, I wasn't aware of that. Have you seen the card? Is it super obvious?
Hi Ron

It was on display at the Cleveland National several years ago. The fake "Nat'L" lettering
in it's caption looked pretty good.
What was "super obvious" that it was a fake was it's POLAR BEAR back.

All 9 authentic Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'L cards exist ONLY with the PIEDMONT 350 back.


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #999  
Old 05-23-2020, 06:59 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


It appears that this subject matter here is reaching an end. A friendly bump to give this topic one more try by posting the regular Joe Doyle cards
in my PIEDMONT - - - - SOVEREIGN - - - - SWEET CAPORAL sets.





TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
  #1000  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:02 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Well, I have 2 more new inputs to this Joe Doyle survey. Neither of these 2 inputs have this "printer's mark" in their caption. This 13-year Survey suggests to us that we can
expect to find the this "printer's mark" on a Joe Doyle card the average of only ONE out of every 16 cards.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's mark - -^



UPDATED May 26, 2020 (372 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........13..........146

Sweet Cap 350.......7...........139

Polar Bear..............4............32

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........17

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 23 ........ 349

23 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 23/372 = 6.18%


TED Z
.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Consolidated access to the 15 - T206 T-brand (front/back) surveys....UPDATED tedzan Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 58 03-13-2015 02:44 PM
Red Cobb survey of all its 30 backs....post your inputs ? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 176 07-13-2009 03:17 PM
A survey about more surveys Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 22 05-13-2007 02:50 PM
POLAR BEAR subset....need your Inputs ? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 50 04-06-2007 07:11 PM
T206 Wagner-Theory Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 24 03-20-2007 08:33 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:41 AM.


ebay GSB