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  #141  
Old 07-02-2017, 07:12 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

With all due respect....where are you getting your numbers ?

There is absolutely no comparison with 350-only series PB pop #'s vs 350/460 series PB pop #'s.
For example......

DEMMITT.....230 (approx.)

O'HARA........255 (approx.)

350/460 series

COBB red.....232

COBB bat.....141


350-only series

Speaker.........78

Beckley..........54

Bresnahan......51

McGinnity.......46


Furthermore, information from Scot's 100,000+ survey support what I have stated regarding
the differences in printing quantities of PB cards vs 350-only, 350/360. and 460-only series.


TED Z
.
Ted, I agree that the pop #'s are definitely higher in the 350/460 series
compared to the 350 series Polar Bears.

The numbers I provided were from the PSA Polar Bear pop reports comparing the Demmitt and O'Hara to Fred Beck who is also from the 350 series,

Here are the combined PSA and SGC #'s

Demmitt 231 total with 93 lower than a grade of 2 (A , 1 or 1.5) = 1 out of 2.4 below a 2

O'Hara 217 total 80 below a 2 = 1 out of 2.7 below a 2

Beck 56 total 7 below a 2 = 1 out of 8 below a 2

To me this is in line with what I would expect considering how many Demmitt
and O'Hara's would be graded compared to Beck.

Wouldn't you agree that Demmitt and O'Hara would be 3 or 4 times more
likely to be graded than a Fred Beck Polar Bear?
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  #142  
Old 07-02-2017, 07:21 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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I figured that I would post population totals of Polar Bears for HOF's graded by PSA and SGC combined, broken down in print groups. Now I already know that these are just numbers and who knows what has been broken out and re-graded, or what backs are on the graded cards before PSA cared to identify them, or that quantities of cards are not counted from SGC because it was before they were keeping track of player pose. The purpose of this is to show a current average of cards across the print groups at this time.

I chose HOF's because they are more likely to be graded than a common player.

PRINT GROUP 2 (350 SERIES)
BECKLEY - 55
BRESNAHAN - BATTING - 49
COLLINS, JIMMY - 58
KELLEY - 60
MCGINNITY - 47
SPEAKER - 69

PRINT GROUP 3 (350-460 SERIES)
BAKER - 133
BENDER - NO TREES - 87
BROWN - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 141
COBB - BAT OFF - 141
CRAWFORD - WITH BAT - 81
GRIFFITH - BATTING - 108
JENNINGS - ONE HAND - 92
JENNINGS - TWO HANDS - 50
JOHNSON - GLOVE AT CHEST - 155
JOSS - HANDS AT CHEST - 170
LAJOIE - WITH BAT - 125
TINKER - BAT OFF - 67
WILLIS - BATTING - 61
WILLIS - THROWING - 97
YOUNG - WITH GLOVE - 149

PRINT GROUP 4 (460 SERIES)
CHANCE - BATTING - 24
DUFFY - 38
MARQUARD - PITCHING - 78
MCGRAW - GLOVE AT HIP - 37
MCGRAW - PORTRAIT WIT CAP - 34
TINKER - BAT ON - 29
WHEAT - 39

PRINT GROUP 5 (SUPER PRINTS)
CHANCE - YELLOW PORTRAIT - 155
COBB - RED PORTRAIT - 272
EVERS - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 132
MATHEWSON - DARK CAP - 188
__________________
Ron

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 513/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5252
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34


Last edited by Ronnie73; 07-02-2017 at 07:24 PM.
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  #143  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is online now
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Demmitt (St Louis)

Hey T206 set collectors,

Searching for an affordable Demmitt (St Louis) card ?

You might consider a T213-2 Demmitt....the image is exactly the same....if you don't mind the blue caption and it's different team name

There is usually one for sale on ebay for about $100 - 200. Just think of the $$$$ you save....you can spend it on more T206's.


.



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 12-26-2017 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Added scan.
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  #144  
Old 07-05-2017, 08:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is online now
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *






Pardon me for starting this OLD MILL post by first showing you my very first T206 card which I acquired in 1981 at the famous Willow Grove (PA) Show......but, I'm proud of it.

...besides Walter Johnson, Chase is my favorite player from the deadball era.


OLD MILL backs are tricky. They are tough to find on certain 150/350 series subjects. For example....


OLD MILL's are more available on subjects in the 350-only series. And, OLD MILL's are most available on subjects in the 350/460 series. OLD MILL'S get somewhat tougher
to find on subjects in the 460-only series.

Furthermore, the Exclusive 12 subjects in this latter series are very, very difficult to find with OLD MILL backs......






I do not recall of any major finds of T206 OLD MILL (Major Leaguer) cards. Does any one on this forum know of any ? If so, please chime in and tell us of them.
In recent years, Mark Macrae acquired an original T206 collection located in the Northwest. It included a fairly large number of OLD MILL cards. If I recall these
cards were all from the 350/460 series, and 460-only series.



.



To date....309 black OLD MILL Major League subjects have been confirmed.
They are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.


150/350 Series..................123 subjects

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Alperman
Ames (portrait)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bell (hands over head)
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bransfield
Bridwell (portrait-no cap)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro

Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Cobb (green)
Cobb (bat on shoulder)
Conroy (fielding)
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)
Crawford (throwing)
Criss
George Davis (Chicago)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Doolin
Dougherty (portrait)
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ferris

Flick
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Goode
Griffith (portrait)
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)
F. Jones (portrait)
F. Jones (hands at hips)
Jordan (portrait)
Joss (portrait)
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)

Killian (pitching)
Kleinow (bat)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lake (New York)
Leach (portrait)
Leifield (pitching)
Liebhardt
Lobert
Lumley
Magee (portrait)
Manning (bat)
Marquard (hands at side)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
McGraw (portrait-no cap)
McGraw (pointing)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)

McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (portrait)
Murphy (throwing)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schlei (catching)
Schmidt (throwing)
Sheckard (no glove)
Shipke
F. Smith (Chicago)
Spade

Stahl (no glove)
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Sullivan
L Tannehill (Chicago)
Tenney
Tinker (portrait)
Tinker (hands on knees)
Turner
Waddell (portrait)
Waddell (throwing)
Wagner (bat on left)
Wallace
Walsh
Weimer
Doc White (portrait)
Wilhelm (hands at chest)
Williams
Willis (portrait)

Wiltse (portrait-no cap)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)


350-only Series..................76 subjects

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brown (Washington)
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Clark
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree

Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)

Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lavender
Livingstone
McCormick
Milligan
Oakes
Oberlin
Parent
Pfeister (seated)
Purtell

Quillen
Rhoades (arm extended)
Scott
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (white cap)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Wilson
Wright
Zimmerman



350/460 series..................58 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)

Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series..................46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


This survey is a work in progress....any new OLD MILL inputs are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-08-2017 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Added scan.
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  #145  
Old 07-06-2017, 12:01 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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The Old Mill subset is a serious task. I haven't officially focused on the subset yet, even though my Old Mill count is currently at 151. My first Old Mill purchase was a Heinie Zimmermann. My second was a Hal Chase Blue Portrait. My Old Mill SL is complete. Just doing a search on Ebay for T206 Old Mill's will show that not many non SL's are available. I will most likely focus on the Old Mill's a bit more after my Polar Bear subset is down to single digits. It should be interesting to see if a few more Old Mill's get confirmed.
__________________
Ron

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 513/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5252
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34

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  #146  
Old 07-07-2017, 05:15 PM
tedzan tedzan is online now
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





TheT206 set includes exactly 48 Southern League (SL) subjects....34 of which were printed with 3 different backs (brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350).
And, the other 14 of these cards were printed with just OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs.


Checklist of the 48 subjects in the SL series is broken down with respect to the cards with HINDU vs. the no HINDU cards........

34 subjects with brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350 backs

Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard (Savannah)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Sid Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton
Violat


14 subjects with only OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs

Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Westlake
White (Houston)


Stay tuned....additional info regarding these Southern Leaguer's will follow. Including the Brown OLD MILL backs of some of the SL cards.
And, collecting the "Quadruplicate" sub-set of the twenty Southern Association cards.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-10-2017 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #147  
Old 07-07-2017, 05:55 PM
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Sean Sean is offline
Sean Costello
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Interesting Ted. I'm looking forward to reading your theory about why some SL were not printed with a Hindu back.
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  #148  
Old 07-07-2017, 11:22 PM
tedzan tedzan is online now
Ted Zanidakis
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Hi Sean

The timeline of the print runs of the 48 subjects in the Southern League (SL) series tells us the story.

Circa..Summer > Fall 1909, the 1st press run of the SLer's (34 subjects) were printed with HINDU backs.

Circa..late 1909 > early 1910, the OLD MILL press runs started and the following 14 subjects were added
to the SL series (total = 48 subjects)......

Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King (Danville)
Lentz (Little Rock)
Orth (Lynchburg)
Rockenfeld (Montgomery)
Seitz (Norfolk)
Westlake (Danville)

Texas League

Bastian (San Antonio)
Molly Miller (Dallas)
Carlos Smith (Shreveport)
Stark (San Antonio)
Thebo (Waco)
Foley White (Houston)

Circa..Spring 1910, the PIEDMONT 350 cards were printed on all 48 - SL. Surveys indicate that these 14
additional SL subjects were were printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs in greater quantity than those of the
original 34 subjects were.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 07-11-2017 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Modified statement.
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  #149  
Old 07-08-2017, 11:07 AM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
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Hi Ted,

I have always thought that the print run of the latter 14 SLers started/ended at the same time. Two groups: 34 150/350s and 14 350-onlys. What is your reason for parsing out the 6 Texas Leaguers?

Scot
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  #150  
Old 07-08-2017, 12:24 PM
tedzan tedzan is online now
Ted Zanidakis
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Hi Scot

My recollection is, that years ago, you and I came up with 3 print runs on the So. Lgrs.

I've searched for this info in the Net54 archives, but I haven't any luck finding our discussion.

Am I imagining this, or did we arrive at such a timeline in the printing of these 48 cards ?


TED Z
.
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