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  #651  
Old 03-20-2019, 12:56 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted

Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 708.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 06-06-2019 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Updated.
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  #652  
Old 03-20-2019, 12:56 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Double post.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-20-2019 at 12:58 PM.
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  #653  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:02 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Sean

I understand that the earlier brown LENOX cards were not identified by PSA as brown.

I am visiting my Daughter and Grandson in Maine this week. And, when I return home I will try to contact David Hall and ask him if the brown LENOX card on his list is one which he has in his collection.

Hi Sean

OK, I contacted David today.....he does not have a brown LENOX Merkle. He included it on his list since it exists (namely your card). Sorry, I simply misinterpreted his information
regarding certain brown LENOX cards on his list.

So, your Merkle appears to be unique.


TED Z
.
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  #654  
Old 03-24-2019, 07:08 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out

While were on the subject of brown LENOX cards, here is a refresher course regarding the known T206's with this strange back.

First, let's consider the brown LENOX in the 350/460 series. The 63 subjects in this series are bifurcated. That is, 35 subjects, which I refer to as GROUP A,
will not be found with brown LENOX backs. GROUP B (shown here) comprises of 28 subjects. All 28 of these T206's are possible with the brown LENOX back.
To date, 17 of them have been confirmed. For more info on this bifurcation of the 350/460 series subjects refer to Post #8 in this thread.

350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


350/460 series....Group B





Now, for the 460-only series...…
To date, 6 brown LENOX cards from this series have been confirmed. These 6 subjects appear to be from the same group of 9 subjects which were the only
confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in the 460-only series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)


TED Z
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  #655  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:10 PM
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Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
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So 23 known Brown Lenox front-back combos? Brown Old Mill has 12?
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  #656  
Old 03-25-2019, 04:20 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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What would be interesting to know is how many current collectors are actually actively going after the 5252 or so different cards. It's no secret that I'm trying. Who else is going for the complete master?

I wonder if PSA will ever offer a special T206 discount when submitting 1000+ different cards for the registry set? Or will SGC get their new Registry going and steer many towards their direction? I requested a PSA Registry upgrade or addition to include all 5252 or so cards and a separate 28 card Factory 30 "No Print" set. I was told well over a year ago that it was already in the works for the master set and no response on the "No Prints". I even offered to help in any way, free of charge.
__________________
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T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 513/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5252
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34

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  #657  
Old 03-25-2019, 05:11 PM
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Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
What would be interesting to know is how many current collectors are actually actively going after the 5252 or so different cards. It's no secret that I'm trying. Who else is going for the complete master?

I wonder if PSA will ever offer a special T206 discount when submitting 1000+ different cards for the registry set? Or will SGC get their new Registry going and steer many towards their direction? I requested a PSA Registry upgrade or addition to include all 5252 or so cards and a separate 28 card Factory 30 "No Print" set. I was told well over a year ago that it was already in the works for the master set and no response on the "No Prints". I even offered to help in any way, free of charge.


Let's see: less pay for much more work, huh?
__________________
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Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
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  #658  
Old 03-25-2019, 08:44 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
What would be interesting to know is how many current collectors are actually actively going after the 5252 or so different cards. It's no secret that I'm trying. Who else is going for the complete master?

I wonder if PSA will ever offer a special T206 discount when submitting 1000+ different cards for the registry set? Or will SGC get their new Registry going and steer many towards their direction? I requested a PSA Registry upgrade or addition to include all 5252 or so cards and a separate 28 card Factory 30 "No Print" set. I was told well over a year ago that it was already in the works for the master set and no response on the "No Prints". I even offered to help in any way, free of charge.

A very good question, Ron.

Speaking for myself, I currently have approx. 2600 different front/back permutations.....just 1/2 the way towards a master set. I have no intentions of broadening this T206 collection
to achieve a master set. I leave that task to my Grandson, Ron, who will inherit these cards.

My T206 collection comprises of the following complete (or near complete) sets, or back runs..….

all - PIEDMONT set...….520 cards (includes MAGIE and a "poor man's" JOE DOYLE error card)

all - SOVEREIGN set.....408 cards (complete)

all - SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set.....468 cards ("complete"....only missing Wagner)

hybrid T206 set....514 cards (includes CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE 460, EPDG, brown HINDU, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, SWEET CAP, TOLSTOI)

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run.....72 cards (of 74)

Exclusive 12 run.....128 (of 156 cards)

Various players back runs [blue Chase, Cobb, Frank Delehanty, Donlin (bat), Doolan (fielding), Johnson, Six Super Prints, etc.]…..261 cards

AB 350, BL 350, CY 350, DRUM, red HINDU, LENOX, PIEDMONT 460/42, UZIT, 1910 COUPON, etc......222 cards


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-27-2019 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #659  
Old 03-25-2019, 09:44 PM
t206kid t206kid is offline
Jay Kaplan
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That's sick. What 2 AB460's are you missing Ted?
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  #660  
Old 03-25-2019, 09:54 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out

Hey Jay

Great to hear from you.

Camnitz (arms above head) and Larry Doyle (portrait).

Would you happen to have them ?


TED Z
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  #661  
Old 03-27-2019, 07:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
So 23 known Brown Lenox front-back combos? Brown Old Mill has 12?
Hi Ryan

As of today, 13 brown OLD MILL cards have been confirmed. They are......

Bernhard
Foster
Greminger
Helm
Hooker
Jordan
Kiernan
Mullaney
Paige
Reagan
Revelle
Sid Smith
Thornton






TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-27-2019 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #662  
Old 03-27-2019, 07:35 PM
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Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
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Thanks Ted
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  #663  
Old 03-27-2019, 08:23 PM
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Sean Sean is offline
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Ted, is the OM Brown Mullaney that weird Cy Young multi-strike card that belonged to Leon and now to Jaime? Or has another Mullaney showed up?
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  #664  
Old 03-27-2019, 09:46 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Ted, is the OM Brown Mullaney that weird Cy Young multi-strike card that belonged to Leon and now to Jaime? Or has another Mullaney showed up?
Sean

The only brown OLD MILL Mullaney that I know of is that multi-strike card which you are referring to.


TED Z
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  #665  
Old 04-01-2019, 07:02 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference....Reflections, etc.....Tell us of your experiences upgrading T206's

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards



Certainly, one way of continuing the T206 "hunt" is by upgrading your cards (sets). Especially the tougher T206 backs, because you can usually sell off (or trade)
the replaced card pretty quickly.

Very recently, I upgraded two red HINDU cards in my Exclusive 12 sub-set (McGraw and Hummel). And, my original McGraw & Hummel cards sold very quickly.



.

.





……….





……………..










. .


. .






Show-n-Tell us about your T206 upgrading experiences.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 04-02-2019 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #666  
Old 04-02-2019, 05:33 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference....Reflections, etc.....Tell us of your experiences upgrading T206's

Well, I guess "upgrading T206's" isn't too exciting a subject

Anyhow, here's one for you.…try finding the red Cobb with a SOVEREIGN 460 back. Anyone on this forum who collects SOVEREIGN T206's
will tell you that this card is extremely difficult to find.

I completed my all - SOVEREIGN set in 2007 when I finally added this Cobb to my set. Then it took me 8 years to upgrade this Cobb. And,
although the new card is graded an "A", I am very pleased with it.


2007

.



2015

.



I'm sure some of you have similar stories, how's about sharing them with us.


TED Z
.
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  #667  
Old 04-02-2019, 07:26 PM
cincyredlegs cincyredlegs is offline
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Ted,

This is my favorite thread on Net54. I have learned so much reading this thread.

Part of the allure of this set is the theories and "best guesses" as to why and how these cards were made. What cards came with what backs. What has been confirmed and what hasn't. Nobody has the exact answer and maybe nobody will. All we can do is conduct our best deductive reasoning.

I started the set in 2013 and on Thursday when the next 5 cards arrive, my number will be 395. My plan was to finish the set in 10 years so I am doing pretty well. I thought I would stop when I finished the set but now thinking I may see how many different cards (front/back combos) I can get. This set definitely has a very deep rabbit hole. LOL.

Mark
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  #668  
Old 04-03-2019, 01:12 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki
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I actually haven't intentionally upgraded any of my T206's yet. I still have about 3500 more to go anyways. The very few I have upgraded was just from buying a card lot for one or two cards and then deciding if the others in that lot graded higher than my currently owned ones. Doesn't happen often. I'm 5 Polar Bears away from finishing that subset. Once I do that, there are a handful of Polar Bears I'll like to upgrade to a PSA 4 / SGC 50 type of grade.

As far as a Sovereign 460 Red Ty Cobb? lol, yea, maybe one day. I've been stuck at 50 out of 52 for at least 5 years now.
__________________
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T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 513/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5252
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34


Last edited by Ronnie73; 04-03-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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  #669  
Old 04-03-2019, 07:18 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference....Reflections, etc.....Tell us of your experiences upgrading T206's

Quote:
Originally Posted by cincyredlegs View Post
Ted,

This is my favorite thread on Net54. I have learned so much reading this thread.

Part of the allure of this set is the theories and "best guesses" as to why and how these cards were made. What cards came with what backs. What has been confirmed and what hasn't. Nobody has the exact answer and maybe nobody will. All we can do is conduct our best deductive reasoning.

I started the set in 2013 and on Thursday when the next 5 cards arrive, my number will be 395. My plan was to finish the set in 10 years so I am doing pretty well. I thought I would stop when I finished the set but now thinking I may see how many different cards (front/back combos) I can get. This set definitely has a very deep rabbit hole. LOL.

Mark
Hey Mark

Your set is 77 % complete....I would be willing to bet you'll have a 520-card set by the end of this year.

And then, as those haunting lyrics in the song Hotel California say.... "You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave".

The T206 MONSTER has you !

But, that is not a bad thing. I've been collecting T206's for 40 years now; and, I am still sane. At least my family will attest to that


TED Z
.
.
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  #670  
Old 04-04-2019, 05:35 PM
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frankbmd frankbmd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206fix View Post
Doc, it's actually Lenoxii - where did you get your medical degree?!? By coincidence, it's also the generic drug that cures erectile dysfunction.

Actually, PSA has 9 Black Lenoxii Merkle cards in their pop reports.
And here I always thought that Lenoxii referred to Jay Leno the Twelfth. Pardon my delayed response, but I had to feed my oxii.
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Over*760* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-19.
Over 550 sales with satisfied Board members served.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
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  #671  
Old 04-04-2019, 08:09 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 Reference....Reflections.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


Hey guys, anyone here interested in smoking a 108 year old American Beauty cigarette
.
................. Some of the really difficult to find AB 460 cards in this sub-set .................



I acquired this AB 460 Cobb early in the game of starting an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run.
I was tempted to crack it out and resubmit it to PSA, hoping for a Vg-Ex grade.

When I purchased this Cobb, it's pop report (PSA + SGC) data indicated only 4 examples.
I received a number of calls and emails asking me if I would sell it. I said absolutely not.






Some years later, this AB 460 Cobb (ungraded) was available. I purchased it with the thought in mind
to sell the 1st Cobb (which appeared to me to be a higher grade). So, I sold the 1st Cobb to a friend.


.




And guess what ?
Contrary to my thinking, the 2nd Cobb graded the same as the 1st Cobb. Absolutely amazing !






I'm curious, how many of you consider down-grading some of your T206's ?


TED Z
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  #672  
Old 04-05-2019, 03:15 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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The down grading thought has never crossed my mind. Now if I had some PSA 8's, 9's, or 10's, then I'd more than likely down grade them to 4's. Top pop is less important to me and getting other cards I need is more important.
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T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 513/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5252
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34

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  #673  
Old 04-05-2019, 08:14 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 Reference....Reflections.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 View Post
The down grading thought has never crossed my mind. Now if I had some PSA 8's, 9's, or 10's, then I'd more than likely down grade them to 4's. Top pop is less important to me and getting other cards I need is more important.
Hi Ron

I learned this trick when I broke-up my 2nd T206 set (in order to assemble my all-PIEDMONT set). I had six T206 HOFers in that 2nd set that graded very high (7's and 8's).
By selling those gems, I was able to afford purchasing twenty HOFers and approx. 50 commons for my PIEDMONT set.
Like you, I'm a collector....not an "investor" in cardboard


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 04-05-2019 at 08:48 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #674  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 Reference....Reflections.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

As I have already said, if I am lucky enough to have a T206 which grades a 7, or 8, or 9, I don't hold onto it. Shucks, I cannot discern any difference between these cards, anyway.

My T206 collection ranges from Vg to Ex cards. And, I'm very happy with them. The greater majority of them are un-graded. Here are some examples of my highest graded T206's.


.


.


.


.






TED Z
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  #675  
Old 04-16-2019, 08:49 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE/Reflections....Black LENOX checklist...and show us your LENOX cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


.


LENOX cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #30 in New York. The LENOX brand was mainly distributed in New York, New England, and New Jersey.
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards were the last T206's printed by American Lithographic (circa January/February 1911).
The Exclusive 12 subjects in the 460-only series were NOT printed with LENOX backs.


.

My first LENOX card acquired in Cooperstown in 1991 for $15.





.


.



Black LENOX confirmed list........

To date....a total of 81 subjects have been confirmed (from a possible 96 subjects. The series breakdown is as follows:

350/460 Series......47 confirmed Black LENOX cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Crawford (bat)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)

Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Street (catching)

Tinker (bat off shoulder)
White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series....34 confirmed Black LENOX cards (complete)

Abbaticcio (blue sleeve)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (arms over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms over head)
Camnitz (arms side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Doyle (portrait)
Frill
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands)
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)

Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


OK guys, show us your LENOX cards. Perchance, some one on this forum will post a new LENOX card which can be added to the checklist.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 04-28-2019 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #676  
Old 04-16-2019, 11:08 AM
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Ted, not to interrupt the great posts full of info but wanted to announce that yesterday, with the arrival of Bill Burns, Scoops Carey (Brown Hindu), and Jake Stahl (no glove showing, and from a transaction here on Net54), I have hit 520 and climbed Monster Mountain. Thank you so much for all of the wisdom passed down in this threat and others. What a thrill!

Last edited by KingFisk; 04-17-2019 at 11:07 AM. Reason: Fixed typo
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  #677  
Old 04-16-2019, 04:49 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
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I've owned many Lenox's over the years...here's my current example.
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File Type: jpg Lenox B.jpg (62.0 KB, 423 views)
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  #678  
Old 04-16-2019, 05:33 PM
sb1 sb1 is offline
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Default Johnson Pitching

Thought I posted this before, but don't seem to find it in the thread.
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File Type: jpg T206JohnsonLenox Back.jpg (50.0 KB, 411 views)
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  #679  
Old 04-16-2019, 08:11 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE/Reflections....Black LENOX checklist...and show us your LENOX cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingFisk View Post
Ted, not to interrupt the great posts full of info but wanted to announce that yesterday, with the arrival of Bill Burns, Scoops Carey (Brown Old Mill), and Jake Stahl (no glove showing, and from a transaction here on Net54), I have hit 520 and climbed Monster Mountain. Thank you so much for all of the wisdom passed down in this threat and others. What a thrill!
Hi Carl

Congratulations, you have tamed the Monster.

And, thanks for the kind words.


TED Z
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  #680  
Old 04-16-2019, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Carl



Congratulations, you have tamed the Monster.



And, thanks for the kind words.





TED Z

.
Of course, Ted. And thank you!

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  #681  
Old 04-17-2019, 10:59 AM
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Congrats Carl. You mind posting the brown old mill? I would love to see it.
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  #682  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Congrats Carl. You mind posting the brown old mill? I would love to see it.
Thank you! And I would if I had one... I meant to write "Brown Hindu" I will edit...
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  #683  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:43 AM
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Ahhh. That makes sense! Congrats on 520
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  #684  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:46 PM
iowadoc77 iowadoc77 is offline
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Part of my McGraw back run...

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
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  #685  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Ahhh. That makes sense! Congrats on 520
Thank you very much!

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  #686  
Old 04-17-2019, 03:43 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is online now
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Hey Carl- I'm sending my congrats too. Job well done. And I was also impressed when you said Brown OM. Time to get the gang together for another Net54 dinner.

Last edited by barrysloate; 04-17-2019 at 03:43 PM.
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  #687  
Old 04-17-2019, 03:51 PM
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Thanks Barry! Leave it to me to disappoint the smartest guys in the hobby with my dumb typo... Would love to see you and the other fellows at another dinner this summer!

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  #688  
Old 04-17-2019, 04:18 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is online now
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I'll be available any time in June, but I am going to let somebody else put it together.
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  #689  
Old 04-22-2019, 06:47 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE/Reflections....Black LENOX checklist...and show us your LENOX cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


.


A Net54er emailed me asking how did I know when the end of the T206 print runs occurred. Years ago, an American Litho (ALC) ledger dated Feb 1911 was discovered
which instructed Factory #30 employees to insert a T206 card and a T80 card in a LENOX cigarette pack. Early in 1911, ALC started printing their Gold-Bordered series
of cards (T43, T57, T80, T99, T205, etc.). Therefore, it's fair to conclude that the T206 era ended then with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT print runs.

At the beginning of 1911, ALC launched their Gold-Border series of cards. The T80 cards depicting worldwide Military subjects was one of the 1st issues. The artwork of
the T80 set (50 cards) is very distinctive and their gold borders are quite ornate. The T80 cards were printed with 5 different backs, 4 of which are shown here (missing
is the very rare OLD MILL).


T80 cards




WOW ! If we only had a "time-machine" that would revert us back to the Spring of 1911 (just for a day), so we can open up a LENOX pack and experience the thrill of
finding a T80 U.S. Brigadier General and a T206 Ty Cobb in the same pack of cigarettes


TED Z
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  #690  
Old 04-23-2019, 07:02 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE/Reflections....Black LENOX checklist...and show us your LENOX cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


.


Some nice LENOX cards, guys. Especially, Scott's Walter Johnson. Thanks for posting all of them.

I'm still searching for the following 350/460 series subjects, which have yet to be confirmed with the Black LENOX back. I expect that most of them (if not all of them)
will eventually be discovered. Although, I have my reservations regarding the LaJoie card.

OK, show them if you have them.....especially if you have any one of these 18 which are "missing-in-action"..... Thanks.






Series 350/460 subjects which are NOT CONFIRMED with a black LENOX back (so far).

Conroy (bat) **
Doolan (bat)
Evers (with bat-Chicago)
Jennings (two hands)
Lajoie (bat) **
Mathewson (dark cap)
Mullin (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky) **
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing) **
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Jeff Sweeney (catching)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder) **
Wilhelm (bat)

** Note Confirmed with the Brown LENOX back.


TED Z
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  #691  
Old 04-29-2019, 06:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE/Reflections....Black LENOX checklist...and show us your LENOX cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


.


Just another day to play and display some LENOX cards. Ungraded Vg cards, or perhaps a PSA 8 card.....all are appreciated. Condition is not a factor.
Looking forward to seeing some more of your LENOX gems.

The LENOX and UZIT cards are like 1952 TOPPS Hi # cards....printed last and printed least.
But, certainly much more rare than 1952 TOPPS Hi # cards.


.


TED Z
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  #692  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:58 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
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Ted, someone made me an offer on my Griffith, so I moved the card along...and quickly filled the gap with this great example. Thanks to Michael H (don't think he's a member here).
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  #693  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:53 AM
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i saw the Mullaney Brown old mill mentioned in the thread.. thought i would post a clear picture of the card... been a while since i posted it on the board..

forgive me for the extra large pic... but its required to see the Brown OM portion of the card.. which is the most significant part about the card...


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  #694  
Old 05-01-2019, 10:35 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Lenox

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
Ted, someone made me an offer on my Griffith, so I moved the card along...and quickly filled the gap with this great example. Thanks to Michael H (don't think he's a member here).

Mike

A great looking Bell....thanks for posting it.


TEDZ
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  #695  
Old 05-01-2019, 10:36 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, etc......Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206

[quote=Blunder19;1874137]i saw the Mullaney Brown old mill mentioned in the thread.. thought i would post a clear picture of the card... been a while since i posted it on the board..

forgive me for the extra large pic... but its required to see the Brown OM portion of the card.. which is the most significant part about the card...





Hi Jamie

Thanks for posting an enlarged image of this great T206. It provides us a clearer view of the multiple brands on the back of this "crazy" T206.

Hope to see you at the National in Chicago in August.


TEDZ
.
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Last edited by Leon; 06-06-2019 at 08:19 AM.
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  #696  
Old 05-02-2019, 11:24 PM
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Hey Ted.. yes i will be at the national.. from Wednesday to Saturday... i will come find your table on Wednesday.. have the rare back T206s ready for me
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  #697  
Old 05-09-2019, 06:11 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, etc......Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunder19 View Post
Hey Ted.. yes i will be at the national.. from Wednesday to Saturday... i will come find your table on Wednesday.. have the rare back T206s ready for me
Hi Jamie

Fair warning, find me early....because the rare ones sell quickly. Our booth is usually set-up near the entrance.

Question for you regarding this amazing T206. Given the way you have displayed the back of this card, can I assume that the Mullaney image on the front of this card is inverted ?
Which would be consistent with the inverted Brown OLD MILL printed on it.



TED Z
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  #698  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:03 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE/Reflections, Theories, etc........revisting the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Nine years ago, Jon Canfield posted this Ty Cobb/TY COBB thread: What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back . It sparked some spirited discussion,
including information revealing that the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco was introduced in November 1909.

Only eight red portrait Cobb cards with the Ty Cobb back were known 9 years ago. Since then 14 more have been discovered. Most of them have been from collections in the
greater Atlanta area.







Factory #33...... manufacturer of the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco





With all that we have learned on this forum about this mysterious card....Is this, or isn't this card part of the T206 family ? Let's hear your input ? ?

This is not meant to be a "poll"......just, a friendly and meaningful discussion.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 06-07-2019 at 08:04 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #699  
Old 06-05-2019, 08:04 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is online now
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We've had this discussion before, but let's give it another shot. With regard to its design, it is an exact match to other T206's. But in terms of its distribution, it is entirely different. All the other 15 brands issued hundreds of different players and poses, as an incentive for consumers to purchase more packs. Ty Cobb tobacco, on the other hand, issued only a single pose. And that is not consistent with T206's as we know them. I say it's not part of the set, but have no problem if the hobby wishes to include it.
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  #700  
Old 06-05-2019, 08:26 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE/Reflections...Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
We've had this discussion before, but let's give it another shot. With regard to its design, it is an exact match to other T206's. But in terms of its distribution, it is entirely different. All the other 15 brands issued hundreds of different players and poses, as an incentive for consumers to purchase more packs. Ty Cobb tobacco, on the other hand, issued only a single pose. And that is not consistent with T206's as we know them. I say it's not part of the set, but have no problem if the hobby wishes to include it.

Hi Barry

Yes, we've had this conversation several times before. And yes this card is very unique in the vast population of white-bordered tobacco cards printed and issued from 1909 - 1919.

Newspaper clippings tell us ATC introduced the Ty Cobb tobacco Tin in late 1909. The graphic on this Tin pictures the Ty Cobb (bat on shoulder) pose.....from the 150 Series T206's.

The card, however, is that of the red portrait pose of Cobb. This is consistent with my research that indicates that this pose of Cobb was printed by American Lithographic when they
first started issuing their 350 Series cards (circa....early 1910). Anyhow, this Ty Cobb card was a promotional premium. While some were handed out to customers, other cards were
most likely inserted in the Tin. In any event, my guess is that very few of them were printed (perhaps a single sheet of approx. 100 cards).

So, should this Ty Cobb card be included in the T206 set...I tend to think so. But, I do understand why other collectors would disagree. If I could afford this card, I would put it in my
T206 all - SOVEREIGN set, since it has a green colored back


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 06-06-2019 at 06:50 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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