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  #21  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:43 PM
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I deliberately framed the question as one of ethics not legality because, with due respect, there are few things less productive than a lot of non-lawyers giving opinions about what the law should be. See Kevin Quinn pontificating on class actions for example.

I think my feelings about it would be the same whether or not it's illegal. To me, it's artificially and intentionally driving up prices. And it's happening every day, which means it can have an enormous impact.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 06:51 PM.
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  #22  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:50 PM
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Default Mine was

an attempt to state what i feel the law should be and hell I'm in court enough i might as well be a lawyer. unfortunate nature of my business. Lol

Last edited by glynparson; 06-24-2016 at 06:50 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:53 PM
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I don't see it as unethical if the bidder is willing and able to buy the card for his bid. I would have a problem with someone bidding it up over another bidder's max and then retracting, or with two more more people colluding to artificially inflate prices.
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Last edited by pokerplyr80; 06-24-2016 at 06:55 PM.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
an attempt to state what i feel the law should be and hell I'm in court enough i might as well be a lawyer. unfortunate nature of my business. Lol
LOL. That came out harsher than I intended, my point more broadly is that I don't see whether or not this practice is illegal as being the issue. Let's assume for the sake of argument it is legal, although I am not saying it is -- that doesn't make it ethical.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 06:54 PM.
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:55 PM
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Default I agree

I agree i think it is unethical or immoral behavior.
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  #26  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:12 PM
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I think it's unethical but marginally so in any one instance. Frequency and volume can exacerbate it into more.
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Last edited by Shoebox; 06-24-2016 at 07:18 PM.
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  #27  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:12 PM
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There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.

But, if your intention is to "protect your investment", then it also won't work. If prices of "your card" that you are trying to protect have gone up, you won't have bid enough and it doesn't matter since it is up. If it has gone down, all you will do it buy another card at a price higher than anyone else which means that if you were to sell it immediately you will lose money.

On a similar note, I was in a situation several years ago where I was bidding strong on cards from 4-5 different 1880's non-sports sets. I was consistently losing to the same collector - someone with loads of cash. It got to the point where I knew that if I bid $50, he would win it for $51. But if I didn't bid he would win it for $20. I wouldn't bid for a week, see how low they went for, think they went low and try again to win a few but then lose anyway. Frustrating. Wrote about it on the Net54 Non-Sports Card Forum. Someone finally responded that I controlled the market for these sets. Interesting thought.
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  #28  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:13 PM
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I believe it is very unethical and immoral when done to card(s) I am looking to buy. Now if I am selling it is perfectly fine.
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  #29  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egbeachley View Post
There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.

But, if your intention is to "protect your investment", then it also won't work. If prices of "your card" that you are trying to protect have gone up, you won't have bid enough and it doesn't matter since it is up. If it has gone down, all you will do it buy another card at a price higher than anyone else which means that if you were to sell it immediately you will lose money.

On a similar note, I was in a situation several years ago where I was bidding strong on cards from 4-5 different 1880's non-sports sets. I was consistently losing to the same collector - someone with loads of cash. It got to the point where I knew that if I bid $50, he would win it for $51. But if I didn't bid he would win it for $20. I wouldn't bid for a week, see how low they went for, think they went low and try again to win a few but then lose anyway. Frustrating. Wrote about it on the Net54 Non-Sports Card Forum. Someone finally responded that I controlled the market for these sets. Interesting thought.
Much of what the government considered shill bidding in Mastro was NOT done with any knowledge of the high bids. Read the court papers. It was people bidding on their own lots trying to push up prices but willing to buy them back if they won.
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  #30  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:28 PM
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It just feels wrong .when something feels wrong the chances are you shouldn't be involed with it .

The other hand : if it just happened to a card you listed , no doubt you would be happy. I don't think anyone would say no sorry you should have payed this much and give money back to someone .

The only real problem I have is that when whatever is going on stops . I don't think after that there is anywhere to go but down. Looks like a vintage baseball card bubble .......
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Last edited by Rookiemonster; 06-24-2016 at 07:30 PM.
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