1952 Mantle VS PSA 10 Munson

[Donscards]

I have a SGC 35 1952 Topps Mantle up for sale on ebay (11K) I have been offered a psa 10 1970 Thurman Munson Rookie for the Mantle (Only 2 in Population report) this card is from The Dimitri Young auction---it sold for $13k 5/20/12----I feel I will refuse the offer---it is hard to give up a Mantle for Munson (and I know it is a 10)----just wondering what other guys would do. thanks, Don

[Econteachert205]

The mantle has a wider audience of interest and greater investment potential.

[MikeGarcia]

The fear is that more of these will turn up and the pop will be eventually 4 or 5 instead of 2....if the right people consign enough PSA 9's to the right consignors and ...well , remember that Art Shell thread......great reading for a rainy Saturday...you're wise to decline the offer...IMHO

[SMPEP]

I assume this is a joke.

No one in their right mind should trade a 52 Mantle in ANY condition for a Munson RC in ANY condition (I don't care if it's a PSA 11). You can pick up a nice Munson RC for under $25 (not pristine, but nice enough for 99% of America's population). You can't pick up a rag of a 52 Mantle for less than $1,500.

The fact that some even think this is a serious question ... just shows how silly this hobby is about condition. (And "silly" is as generous as I can get.)

Got to give PSA credit though. They created a serious delusion by convincing collectors that they need PSA 7, 8, 9, 10 cards ... when if there had never been any grading company at all ... no collector would have EVER paid over $200 for a Munson rookie in any condition.

But the speculators out there always figure there is a greater fool out there to take the PSA 10 card off their hands. And the PSA cards are the only way card dealers can make a profit. So both groups pimp this delusion. Sadly, when that market busts (and it will), it will bust HUGE. And the collectors (not dealers or speculators) will be out 90% or more.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I assume this is a joke.

No one in their right mind should trade a 52 Mantle in ANY condition for a Munson RC in ANY condition (I don't care if it's a PSA 11). You can pick up a nice Munson RC for under $25 (not pristine, but nice enough for 99% of America's population). You can't pick up a rag of a 52 Mantle for less than $1,500.

The fact that some even think this is a serious question ... just shows how silly this hobby is about condition. (And "silly" is as generous as I can get.)

Got to give PSA credit though. They created a serious delusion by convincing collectors that they need PSA 7, 8, 9, 10 cards ... when if there had never been any grading company at all ... no collector would have EVER paid over $200 for a Munson rookie in any condition.

But the speculators out there always figure there is a greater fool out there to take the PSA 10 card off their hands. And the PSA cards are the only way card dealers can make a profit. So both groups pimp this delusion. Sadly, when that market busts (and it will), it will bust HUGE. And the collectors (not dealers or speculators) will be out 90% or more.

This post up here is dropping science. That post is worth emblazoning on shirts and mugs.

The Munson 10 is just a condition rarity. Take that 10 off the sticker and what's the card worth? Take your 1952 Mantle out of its holder and what's it still worth? That tells you a ton about the intrinsic value of the two cards.

The 1952 Mickey Mantle is still a 5-7k card in "1" condition. What's the Munson worth in that same condition? Maybe a dollar or five.

I would take your Mantle all day. The demand for it is much broader. It's perhaps the most widely pursued card in the entire hobby. Just having one distinguishes a collection. The same simply cannot be said for a Munson RC, even in 10 grade-- assuming the card truly merits the 10 distinction.

[ALR-bishop]

But,what about a 1959 Topps PSA 10 Curt Raydon

[1963Topps Set]

I have to agree. If I gave you a choice between the two which one would you pick? I know which one I would pick.....Mantle.....

[JollyElm]

This is precisely why I hate graded cards. That exact same raw Munson card (and believe me, I LOVED Thurman Munson, so it has nothing to do with him personally), before it was forced into its plastic tomb, would have garnered some interest from people. No doubt about it, but it would've been mild interest. If a person decided to sell it, he would've gotten a relatively decent premium for it, but that's it. Nothing crazy. Now it rests inside a slab with someone opining it's a 10 out of 10 and all of a sudden people are selling their cars to go buy it???????

[autograf]

Starts and stops with Mantle......

[SMPEP]

Wait, wait , wait .... did you say Curt Raydon? The Legendary Curt Raydon? Well that changes everything!

[glynparson]

out like candy on halloween to the big submitters there would be far more 10s available than there are. This argument is laughable. The shell was believed to have been enhanced by many in the thread. I have submitted on my own and through one of the hobbys leading dealers and submitters and I saw no favors when submitting through the larger dealer. Because Joe got a card that may or may not have been enhanced bumped two grades shows no favoritism. Joe sells cards that are not always maxed out in grade. I can assure you people have bought cards from him and gotten bumps. Just like he did in the Probstein auction. It is the nature of the Beast when subjective grading holds so much weight. If the Market would mature long enough every card would eventually end up maxed out in a holder probably one grade higher or two then it should be. Just the nature of subjective grading. Not sure if I would or would not do the trade but I would look into it, and see what kind of Market there currently is for the Munson. Love it or hate it the market is what it is.

[ALR-bishop]

....one could consider trading a lesser condition 52 Mantle for the Munson card in the first post of the Topps 1970 Rookie Artist Proof thread

[brob28]

I agree with all those who said keep your Mantle. As if you need more ammunition for your decision - from my experience most collectors prefer Munson's '71 card to the '70, rookie anyway.

[brian1961]

Don---

Hang on to your 1952 Topps Mantle, and hold out for the best cash offer. If he was offering a PSA 10 1971 Topps Munson, that would be different, but he's not. Those dual, triple, and quadruple-player Topps rookie cards are all eyesores, in my opinion anyway.

The market for the '52 Topps Mantle is red-hot, as you know. This indeed might be a good time to sell it, as you already are. ---Brian Powell

[ALR-bishop]

wrong thread---sorry

[Bigdaddy]

There is certainly a bigger market for the Mantle than the Munson. Think of it this way; if you had both cards on your table at a show and told everyone who came up that they could pick one of the two as a birthday present, which one would get the most takers?

With that being said, you have already made the decision to sell the Mantle. Then just look at the numbers - which one would bring a bigger price at an auction? Do you plan to sell the Munson?

[Eric72]

I suggest not trading away the Mantle. I don't think the person offering the trade could sell the Munson for $13,000, or even very close to that number. If he could, then he would be able to purchase the Mantle from you AND have the rest as profit.

Just my two cents...

Best regards,

Eric

[Donscards]

Quick update I passed on the Munson psa 10---I am now offered from the same person a PSA 10 Jerry Rice RC and a PSA 10 Joe Montana RC--both of these have sold for 10-12K each---I know it is crazy--but the trade now has me thinking--if I can get 10 on each, hard to decline. Don

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Quick update I passed on the Munson psa 10---I am not offered from the same person a PSA 10 Jerry Rice RC and a PSA 10 Joe Montana RC--both of these have sold for 10-12K each---I know it is crazy--but the trade now has me thinking--if I can get 10 on each, hard to decline. Don

Hi Don,

I imagine you meant to type, "now" offered instead of, "not" offered.

Please be careful. If someone is offering cards that can be liquidated fairly easily - for a significant amount more than your asking price - they may be trying to scam you.

I do not personally know any of the parties involved. Just pointing out that I am seeing a red flag here.

Best regards,

Eric

[pawpawdiv9]

oh boy football fav's....not so much on a Rice...but see if he has/throws in a Walter Payton 10.
I definetly passed on the Muson every day. Not worth it. When i was able to obtain my Mantle..it is the most coveted card i'll ever own and I am proud to have ever own one.
The 52 is so iconic and if you have kids...save it, if not for them.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Quick update I passed on the Munson psa 10---I am now offered from the same person a PSA 10 Jerry Rice RC and a PSA 10 Joe Montana RC--both of these have sold for 10-12K each---I know it is crazy--but the trade now has me thinking--if I can get 10 on each, hard to decline. Don

You're right Don, this is crazy!

[the 'stache]

Wow, this guy really wants that Mantle.

Now that he's throwing in PSA 10 Montana and Rice cards, I have to admit, I'm a little leery. Something seems...off.

I would keep the Mantle. It is the iconic post war baseball card, and as great as those other cards might be, it doesn't make sense to me why he wouldn't just sell the Montana and Rice cards, and buy himself a Mantle with the cash he gets.

Am I the only one that feels something doesn't smell right here?

[Econteachert205]

As has already been mentioned, this does now seem a bit fishy. If I have two cards I can sell for minimum of 15k then why do I trade them instead for a card I can buy for 12-13 k?

[Donscards]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

As has already been mentioned, this does now seem a bit fishy. If I have two cards I can sell for minimum of 15k then why do I trade them instead for a card I can buy for 12-13 k?

Dennis I know it sounds fishy to me also First I would have him mail me the cards first and then check with psa on the serial numbers etc (to make sure the right card is in the case)---Time will tell, I will be talking to him on the phone today. It is crazy but 20K plus is better than 11-12K----I love the Mantle, but again big difference in the money. Don

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Dennis I know it sounds fishy to me also First I would have him mail me the cards first and then check with psa on the serial numbers etc (to make sure the right card is in the case)---Time will tell, I will be talking to him on the phone today. It is crazy but 20K plus is better than 11-12K----I love the Mantle, but again big difference in the money. Don

The difference may be money, but that's assuming that someone will buy those cards at those prices if you are looking to sell. That Mantle will always be in play if you need to sell it. If I EVER want a Rice or Montana rookie card, and if I want a graded example, I'll find an 8 or 8.5. Otherwise, I'll look for an ungraded card that looks just as nice for a fraction of the price. Maybe it's me, but I don't see the dilemma here. Everyone of us that has posted a comment has said keep the Mantle. Don, do you run a card business or are you a collector? If you run a sports card business, I hope you have buyers for the football cards if you make the trade. Otherwise, you may sit on those cards a while. We're all going to have an opinion Don, but you need to do what works best for you. Do you see the next offer coming? It will be PSA 10 basketball cards.......

[hcv123]

1) I agree - something doesn't seem "right" about offer #2 - Be REALLY careful - If something sounds too good to be true - 99 times out of one hundred, it is! I would state the obvious to the guy and ask him what his motivation to do the deal is?

2) In terms of many responders to this thread going "Mantle crazy" - I disagree and agree and it all comes down to timing. I agree for the long run I would hands down rather have the Mantle - much greater likelihood over time to sustain its value due to the many factors mentioned here. IF which appears to be the case here, you don't want to keep the card, but turn it into cash TODAY, then it becomes a question of which card(s) today will net you the most. As mentioned the likelihood of the Munson fetching 13k again is small to none (imo) -knock about 25-35% off and maybe your in the ballpark. I don't know enough about the market for those football cards to have an opinion - but do your homework and if you determine you are likely to sell them for more than your bottom line on the Mantle.........well to do anything else would be leaving money on the table.

[hangman62]

Yes,
I think you should do it..go ahead and trade the 52 T Mantle for the PSA 10 Munson

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Dennis I know it sounds fishy to me also First I would have him mail me the cards first and then check with psa on the serial numbers etc (to make sure the right card is in the case)---Time will tell, I will be talking to him on the phone today. It is crazy but 20K plus is better than 11-12K----I love the Mantle, but again big difference in the money. Don

I would send both (or any cards) to PSA for verification BEFORE sending anything back to this guy. Here is a link to another poster's (from a different forum) experience in a similiar situation:

http://community.ebay.com/t5/Sports-.../td-p/22985341

[7nohitter]

Months ago, I sent Don a PM about a Henry Owens autographed baseball....never heard back. Hm.

Andrew M_I^^L#Le%%R

[the 'stache]

Wow, there's just a lot of bad voodoo going on. Warning, danger, Will Robinson!

First of all, the guy trying to acquire the Mantle sounds desperate, and that sends off all kinds of red flags.

"PSA 10 Munson rookie!"
Ok, add in
"PSA 10 Rice rookie!"
"PSA 10 Montana rookie!"

Soon to be followed by

"PSA 10 Walter Payton rookie!"

Before I proceed at all with a guy like this, I'm telling him "I need a day or two to think about it."

Then, I'm running as fast as my 43 year old, crippled white ass can move me to my desktop computer. I'm firing that baby up, and subscribing to VCP. If there are only 2 PSA 10 Munson rookies, the complete history of those card sales, unless one has been buried in a private collection for quite some time, should be easy enough to find.

Ok, card #1 has PSA cert # ______. Card #2 has PSA cert # _______.

Where does VCP show these two last being sold? #1 was sold at an auction? #2 on EBay? Ok, so, depending on which one the seller claims to have, ask them for some provenance. If they bought a $10,000 card at auction, they're going to be able to show a bank statement with a $10,000 wire, or bank draft, payable to the auction house. They can make a copy of the receipt, and black out portions of the bank account #s, but they should be able to offer you some sort of solid provenance that they are the actual owner of said card.

Short of that, Mr. Mantle would be safely residing in my safe deposit box with my other valuable cards.

You can protect yourself if you are proactive.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Quick update I passed on the Munson psa 10---I am now offered from the same person a PSA 10 Jerry Rice RC and a PSA 10 Joe Montana RC--both of these have sold for 10-12K each---I know it is crazy--but the trade now has me thinking--if I can get 10 on each, hard to decline. Don

Don what are the average sales prices for these cards in PSA 10? Do you have scans?

[Donscards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Don what are the average sales prices for these cards in PSA 10? Do you have scans?

Peter all 3 of those cards went over $10-12K in recent auctions---update is I talked to him on the phone and after asking numious questions, I scared him off---I wanted scans and was going to check with PSA etc---He talked a good game but never sent me scans---Also I checked with another dealer who had problems with trades on ebay, and he told me this guy was a scammer who has ripped off many guys. I was hoping to get the cards to sent to PSA but again, he backed off. It was crazy what he was offering me in trade---I also asked why he didnt sell his cards on ebay, he stated he had a max limit in his selling. Anyway like everyone said, Trader Beware.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Peter all 3 of those cards went over $10-12K in recent auctions---update is I talked to him on the phone and after asking numious questions, I scared him off---I wanted scans and was going to check with PSA etc---He talked a good game but never sent me scans---Also I checked with another dealer who had problems with trades on ebay, and he told me this guy was a scammer who has ripped off many guys. I was hoping to get the cards to sent to PSA but again, he backed off. It was crazy what he was offering me in trade---I also asked why he didnt sell his cards on ebay, he stated he had a max limit in his selling. Anyway like everyone said, Trader Beware.

haha max limit on selling..i cant believe you even talked to that guy after that...

[1963Topps Set]

Max limit on selling???? Did I miss something??

[CW]

I can only speak from personal experience, but if you, as a new seller, go to list too many high dollar cards, the eBay system will give you a warning message stating that you can only sell $X amount per month as a newer seller. After a certain amount of time and enough successful transactions, they may increase your selling limits.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Peter all 3 of those cards went over $10-12K in recent auctions---update is I talked to him on the phone and after asking numious questions, I scared him off---I wanted scans and was going to check with PSA etc---He talked a good game but never sent me scans---Also I checked with another dealer who had problems with trades on ebay, and he told me this guy was a scammer who has ripped off many guys. I was hoping to get the cards to sent to PSA but again, he backed off. It was crazy what he was offering me in trade---I also asked why he didnt sell his cards on ebay, he stated he had a max limit in his selling. Anyway like everyone said, Trader Beware.

Yah if it's too good to be true, it almost always is.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Peter all 3 of those cards went over $10-12K in recent auctions---update is I talked to him on the phone and after asking numious questions, I scared him off---I wanted scans and was going to check with PSA etc---He talked a good game but never sent me scans---Also I checked with another dealer who had problems with trades on ebay, and he told me this guy was a scammer who has ripped off many guys. I was hoping to get the cards to sent to PSA but again, he backed off. It was crazy what he was offering me in trade---I also asked why he didnt sell his cards on ebay, he stated he had a max limit in his selling. Anyway like everyone said, Trader Beware.

Don would you be able to share with us who this guy is so others can avoid?