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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

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  #1  
Old 01-24-2013, 06:39 PM
robsbessette robsbessette is offline
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Default 1952 Topps complete set

Does anyone on here actually have a complete set? If so, are the high numbers just complete beaters? Or actually decent? How long did it take you to complete the set? How much money or cards in trade did it cost you? What was the hardest card to obtain? Is it a set you'll hold onto forever? Or do you think you'll eventually sell it?

Just playing 20 questions here since I'm pretty sure I'll never even try to complete the set, but it's always left me fascinated.

If there are any scans of some nice cards out there, I wouldn't be against seeing them either!

Thanks guys!!!
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  #2  
Old 01-24-2013, 08:54 PM
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Default NO

No, i started a beater set but never finished. Being that there are about 100 high #'s you figure those in ok vg shape would be around $100 x 90 = 9K. That's too rich for my blood.
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  #3  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:04 PM
Bestdj777 Bestdj777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robsbessette View Post
Does anyone on here actually have a complete set? If so, are the high numbers just complete beaters? Or actually decent? How long did it take you to complete the set? How much money or cards in trade did it cost you? What was the hardest card to obtain? Is it a set you'll hold onto forever? Or do you think you'll eventually sell it?

Just playing 20 questions here since I'm pretty sure I'll never even try to complete the set, but it's always left me fascinated.

If there are any scans of some nice cards out there, I wouldn't be against seeing them either!

Thanks guys!!!
It is a beautiful set, and I would love to complete it. Just a little too rich for my blood. What card are you missing for your 53 Bowman set?
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  #4  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:23 PM
robsbessette robsbessette is offline
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#133 Willie Jones. Looking for G/VG condition. Had plenty of opportunities to get it, but not at the right price. You have one?

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It is a beautiful set, and I would love to complete it. Just a little too rich for my blood. What card are you missing for your 53 Bowman set?
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  #5  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:32 PM
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I wish I did so I could help you complete the set. Beautiful set. Congrats on the progress so far!
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  #6  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:12 PM
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Default 1952

I have the set, including the red and black backs of the first series, the various Sain and Pages, the 3 Campos and both Mantles, Thompsons and Robinsons, plus the House yellow Tiger and Woodling/ Schieb border breaks. Plus the 3 Boones, the 2 Kretlows and 2 Fellers. Still looking for the 2nd Crandall. There are also other minor front color differences

To the extent a master set includes the Canadian gray backs I don't think I will ever get there. I have only 10 of them and they usually sell for more than the high number cards now.

I put the basic set together years ago. In 1967 The Card Collectors Company of NY was selling the Mantle for $25 and the high number series for $ 90. Each of the high numbers in decent condition today will cost 3 x that now.

As iconic as the set is, it is full of minor league guys, coaches and no name players due to the competition with Bowman for players
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  #7  
Old 01-25-2013, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
I have the set, including the red and black backs of the first series, the various Sain and Pages, the 3 Campos and both Mantles, Thompsons and Robinsons, plus the House yellow Tiger and Woodling/ Schieb border breaks. Plus the 3 Boones, the 2 Kretlows and 2 Fellers. Still looking for the 2nd Crandall. There are also other minor front color differences

To the extent a master set includes the Canadian gray backs I don't think I will ever get there. I have only 10 of them and they usually sell for more than the high number cards now.

I put the basic set together years ago. In 1967 The Card Collectors Company of NY was selling the Mantle for $25 and the high number series for $ 90. Each of the high numbers in decent condition today will cost 3 x that now.

As iconic as the set is, it is full of minor league guys, coaches and no name players due to the competition with Bowman for players
That is extremely impressive. How do you have them stored? Do you view them often? I would probably look at that set every day...
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  #8  
Old 01-25-2013, 02:49 AM
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I'm a bit behind Al with my set, I have the entire low number set, including the red and black backs of the first series, the various Sain and Pages, only 1 Campos and both Thompsons plus the House yellow Tiger and Woodling/ Schieb border breaks. Plus the 3 Boones and the 2 Kretlows..

I need both Mantles, both Jackies, Campy & Eddie Mathews.

At that point, I will probably be done.

I have no grey backs, and don't know if I will start.

I need the Campos variations, the House yellow tiger and one each of the Fellers and Crandalls, but I'm not putting much effort into them.

I didn't start on mine until about 10 years ago, but I'm a raw guy, and in no hurry, so because I'm not rich that helped and I feel like I got some pretty good deals.

It's a fun one to do, that's for sure.

Last edited by doug.goodman; 01-25-2013 at 03:20 AM.
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  #9  
Old 01-25-2013, 05:46 AM
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I have moved on to almost exclusively collecting Pre-War stuff. I made major dents (85-99%) on every Topps and Bowman set from 1951 to 1969 EXCEPT for 1952 Topps and 1953 Bowman. 48/49/50 Bowmans are still shy of that percentage range but present nicely. The 53 Bowman, at least was startable. I looked at the '52 Topps and said "No freakin' way!" I have a grand total of 3 cards, count'em, three. I only have them because they were mixed in a lot I snagged a while back. I doubt that I ever will go back and work on it. It shall remain the gaping hole in my collection. I can live with that.

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  #10  
Old 01-25-2013, 07:57 AM
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it's just incredible that you have the set, Al. Do you have it scanned and online anywhere? I'd love to look at it.
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  #11  
Old 01-25-2013, 08:32 AM
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Default 1952

I do not have my set scanned. Here are a couple of pieces. On CU a group of folks did a joint set where we posted all the cards in order







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  #12  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:52 AM
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Al,
If you are looking to adopt a son, I'm interested! WOW
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  #13  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:40 AM
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I collected the set as a kid (I'm 67 now) and had it about 80-90% complete but it was pretty rough. In 1980 I purchased a complete set which was for the most part really nice especially the semi's and high numbers. Paid 10K and my collecting buddies thought I was crazy. Over the past 8 years I have had the set completely graded by PSA and it's #18 on the Basic Registry. I have had to upgrade at least half the set and have probably spent another 20K over and above all the grading fees doing so. Just about 2 months ago I finally was able to find a PSA 7 Karl Olson #72 for the last card I needed. Had to pay over $1000 for this common but it is a card that never shows up in high grade. Trying now to get everything PSA 6 or 7. Really admire Al for his Master Set. I have not concentrated on those. Keep mine in the largest safe deposit box available and can barely lift it off the ground!! Really a fun set but definitely a challenge in all respects.
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  #14  
Old 01-25-2013, 01:07 PM
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I got a little over halfway several years ago, but those high number commons were budget killers. The Mantle, Mathews, Robinson, Campanella and Reese are bad enough, but trying to find the rest of the high numbers in decent shape without spending a fortune is a tough task.
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  #15  
Old 01-25-2013, 01:53 PM
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The one set from my childhood I did not complete in the 1980's. Got about halfway into it when the Mantle skyrocketed in price, and that was it for me. Had I been a single guy back then, would probably have spent the five grand or so to complete the set, but had bills to pay so gave it up in disgust. Al's dedication is way beyond my comprehension - I would have been happy with the basic 411 in nice condition.
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  #16  
Old 01-25-2013, 02:15 PM
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Thumbs up 1952

Ed--great story. Congrats on a great set and your persistence and patience over a long time. I started collecting Topps baseball in 1957 and have a full Topps set and pack run, 1948 and 1951 to 2012. Never really quit.
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  #17  
Old 01-25-2013, 03:25 PM
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Default 1952

Here is the 1967 Card Collector's Catalog with prices you can dream about for the 52 high numbers:

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  #18  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:27 PM
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Default Almost there

I'm almost there but stuck on 5 grey backs. If anyone has:

150 Beard, 159 Rogovin, 161 Byerly, 180 Maxwell, 189 Reiser

Let me know. I have many extra grey backs I can trade.

Cheers,
Patrick
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  #19  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:55 PM
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i'm working on the complete set with black/red backs. About half way there on 1-310 after 3-4 years of upgrading and buying lots looking for perfect centering grades vg+. Also, I am working on the autographed set, and at about 200/310 with 15 hi's. One of my goals is to open a nickel
pack of 52's
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  #20  
Old 01-25-2013, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
i'm working on the complete set with black/red backs. About half way there on 1-310 after 3-4 years of upgrading and buying lots looking for perfect centering grades vg+. Also, I am working on the autographed set, and at about 200/310 with 15 hi's. One of my goals is to open a nickel
pack of 52's
Very nice! Especially impressive with how far you have gotten with the autographed set. Can't even imagine what it would feel like to open a nickel pack!!
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  #21  
Old 01-25-2013, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
Here is the 1967 Card Collector's Catalog with prices you can dream about for the 52 high numbers:

Funny how there is a price break between card 99 and 100. I remember stressing about paying a dollar for hi's in the late '50s even. Heck for another 20 cents you could buy a whole box with 24 packs of the new cards.
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  #22  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:29 PM
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Default 52s

My efforts on this set have become dormant...I am short just 3-4 cards (commons) on the first 310 and have a handful of ungraded hi #s in addition to the graded hi#s. With the lows #s, my ungraded cards are consistent with the graded ones I have collected on the list below. Someday I will rededicate myself and finish this thing.


http://www.psacard.com/PSASETREGISTR...spx?s=100&ac=1
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2013, 05:07 AM
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The passion you all display for our hobby is simply amazing. I really do love this site. I wish I'd discovered it long ago.

And Al, that graded Mantle is jaw dropping. Hell, they're all beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
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  #24  
Old 01-26-2013, 09:54 AM
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delete

Last edited by flkersn; 07-20-2013 at 08:56 AM.
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2013, 10:32 AM
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I must say to those who have this set complete or even near complete that I am very impressed. I don't see myself ever going after this one. I've just heard too much about the difficulty and money spent to start it. Maybe I'll go after the low number set and leave it at that though.

Best regards.

AndyH
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  #26  
Old 01-26-2013, 11:23 AM
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Default 1952

flkersn--would be interested in trading info with you on variations/oddities/print defects you have accumulated in your set. If interested you can pm or email me
.
Al
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  #27  
Old 01-26-2013, 11:55 AM
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i have mine started, i have started the low numbers and will go from there. i have other set im working on so i pick them up when i can as lot or individual cards. i still need 117 for the low in vg/vg+/ex and have some doubles to trade.

i fugured i have time so i started this and pick some t206 when i can, its a journey not a sprint.
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  #28  
Old 01-26-2013, 12:46 PM
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I have at least half the set that I got as a kid in the 80's. Only have three High #'s though. What #'s are the grey back variations? I never really looked for those and I might have some by chance.
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  #29  
Old 01-26-2013, 01:35 PM
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Default 1952

# 131 -190--3d Series. Sometimes referred to as Canadians because at one point some thought they originated in a separate printing process there.

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 01-26-2013 at 01:38 PM.
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  #30  
Old 01-26-2013, 01:38 PM
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Thanks Al, I'll check them out.
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  #31  
Old 01-26-2013, 02:13 PM
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Default "Canadians"

The same phenomena exists in cards 1-50 of the 1954 Topps set
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  #32  
Old 01-26-2013, 02:16 PM
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I'm casually pursuing the set. I only have about 80+ low numbers and 13 highs. Some of the highs that I have are in fairly decent shape and some of them are beaters. If I see them available for a decent price, I'll jump on it, but they are so pricey, I can only buy them one at a time. They catch my eye because they are not that common. I don't like people calling them rare, but you won't see too many dealers with '52 highs(one or any quantity) at even the larger regional shows much less the National.

Craig H
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  #33  
Old 01-26-2013, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
flkersn--would be interested in trading info with you on variations/oddities/print defects you have accumulated in your set. If interested you can pm or email me
.
Al
Here is what I have (although some of these "variations" may be failing eyesight!). These are variations NOT recognised by PSA

10 Rosen Black has pink by hat
26 Irvin Black has dark brown and light tan background on front
30 Parnell Black has red line on hat brim
42 Kretlow Black has yellow and peach backgrounds
43 Scarborough Red has Peach and light Peach background (Eyesight??)
43 Scarborough Black has yellow and peach background
54 Kiely Black orange and beige background
55 Boone Black dark olive and light green background
55 Boone Red dark olive and light olive background
80 Wehmeier Black red-yellow and red-orange background
88 Feller clear slats and hazy background
99 Woodling frame break lower left
116 Scheib frame break lower left
121 Niarhos pink dot by ear
146 House Cream yellow logo and many variations in between
162 Crandall Cream orange and red background
181 Swift Cream split PP in TOPPS on back
225 Baumholtz tan and light brown background (eyesight?)
276 Wilson frame break lower right
295 Cavaretta yellow spot in background
307 Campos partial black star
307 Campos frame break upper left
307 frame break upper left, partial black star
311 Mantle arrows left and right
312 Robinson arrows left and right
313 Thomson arrows left and right
314 Campanella missing "R" in "MAJOR" on back

That's it, with one exception. I believe that the gray back seriws 131-190 has a version that has a white border on the front. I cannot explain it, but i has several examples and I do not believe it is a matter of aging or uneven discoloration of the card stock. But what do I know?

I welcome hearing about any other variations.

Bill
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  #34  
Old 01-26-2013, 05:01 PM
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Default 1952 TOPPS master set

My goal is to complete a master set of 554 cards. I currently have 510 cards.

The following lists what I consider a master set of 1952 Topps cards..............

407 different Red Backs
...3 double prints (Mantle, JRobby and Thomson)
..80 Black Backs
...2 Page and Sain error cards
...2 Boone and Campos printing variations
..60 Cards #131 - 190 Gray Backs
----
554 = Total


These five Hi # cards were in the very last pack that I bought as a kid in the Fall of 1952.




Need 44 more of these Gray Backs to finish this adventure.







TED Z
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  #35  
Old 01-26-2013, 05:32 PM
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Default 1952

Ted-- I have all on your list but for all the gray backs. Only have 10 of them and not really pursuing them. I continue to admire your pursuit of them

Bill- great list. Beyond Ted's list I will post the color variant and border oddities I have tomorrow. I do have several on your list, including Woodling, Scheib and the border break Campos as well as the black star.

I have both 311-313 versions, the Kretlows, 2 Houses, and the 2 Campys. In the first 80 it has been my view that many of the front differences are consistent with red versus black backs, like Glaviano , but I have 3 distinct Boones. I have never been able to find what I felt were 2 distinct Fellers or Crandalls, although have heard about them for some time. Will finish up tomorrow when back home

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 01-26-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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  #36  
Old 01-26-2013, 05:54 PM
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Default 311-312

By the way, in it's last editions SCD included the stitching variations in the Standard Catalog , and all 3, particularly the Mantle have front differences as well
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  #37  
Old 01-26-2013, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
Ted-- I have all on your list but for all the gray backs. Only have 10 of them and not really pursuing them. I continue to admire your pursuit of them
Al

Back in the 1980's, we used to shuffle thru "tons" of 1952T cards looking for Gray Backs. Occasionlly, we would find some, and you could buy them for the cost
of a common. Now, as you well know, they are priced ridiculously high. I had quite a few more of them (lower condition than the ones shown in my above post)
and I sold them. At these current prices, why hold on to them


The only 1952T color printing flaw that I once has was Munger with a bright yellow background (instead of it's normal green). I traded it for the Billy Martin gray
back (shown in my above post).

I was really happy about that trade....but, sometimes I wish I still had that yellow Munger card. As, I've seen very few 1952T color printing flaws.

Have you ?

TED Z
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  #38  
Old 01-27-2013, 02:35 AM
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The list of variations is very close however just to keep you guys on your toes a nice variation is on the front of the ever popular billy loes black back lets see if you can see it at one point can all or most of the 1952 collectors meet at a show maybe a national psa is currently reviewing the frank house woodling and scheib articles
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  #39  
Old 01-27-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
My goal is to complete a master set of 554 cards. I currently have 510 cards.

The following lists what I consider a master set of 1952 Topps cards..............

407 different Red Backs
...3 double prints (Mantle, JRobby and Thomson)
..80 Black Backs
...2 Page and Sain error cards
...2 Boone and Campos printing variations
..60 Cards #131 - 190 Gray Backs
----
554 = Total


These five Hi # cards were in the very last pack that I bought as a kid in the Fall of 1952.




Need 44 more of these Gray Backs to finish this adventure.







TED Z

Great looking Mantle Ted.
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  #40  
Old 01-27-2013, 10:15 AM
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Default 1952

Always nice to have more input Thomas. I know there are several front differences in my 2 Loes cards but assumed they were always consistent with whether it was a red or black back. My black back has different color shading around the stars and along his out stretched arm...lower arm too.

While there are definite color differences on the fronts of some of the first 80 cards, like on Kretlow, Glaviano, Scarborough, Kiely, Boone and Wehmeier, all of which I have, I was under the impression they just ran with the red and black back differences.

I have never found what I consider a really different Feller or Crandall. I see some shading differences in scans but nothing distinctive. But those two are often discussed and I would love to see scans of the differences together.

The Woodling and Scheib while interesting to me, are print defects ( I did get them) and not variations. I tend to think of variations as intentional changes made to cards and view the others as print defects...but I still collect them :-).

I did pick up the 2nd House's and Bob Lemke was leaning toward it being a variation in his SCD article on it.

I picked up a 2nd Houk where the background it more white than pink, but consider it just a printing issue.

My 3d Campos, with the border missing in the upper left ( also written up in SCD, as were the Scheib and Woodling), is also a print defect, but then again so is my black star.

I think my 311-313 cards are variations, with both front and back differences. Not really intentional that they are there, but intentional that they were double printed.

The second Campanella is also a print defect but felt the need to get it. Some of the hobby's most iconic "variations", the 58 Herrer, the 57 Bakep and 52 black star are in my mind all just print defects. And border breaks , border irregularities and color flaws abound in every Topps set.

Bill---I have seen the partial black star but do not have one...missing link you think ?

I have heard there are gradations of the House...does this mean it is a printing defect rather than a variation ?

I will need to look for the Swift and Wilson. Swift will be hard on ebay since it is a back issue. How uncommon is the Wilson ?

I need to check my set more closely to see if the other front differences you mention in the first 80 correspond to my red and black backs.

Ted---I think the gray backs are real variations and envy your pursuit of them.

With the list of SCD variations apparently closed due to Bob Lemke's retirement, I assume Beckett and the PSA master registry list, which I do not really follow, will be the main arbitrators of what variants/oddities go mainstream and pick up value. That part does not matter to me since it has always just been a hobby to me. I sure have enjoyed all the input so far in this thread

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 01-27-2013 at 10:32 AM.
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  #41  
Old 01-27-2013, 06:31 PM
SMPEP SMPEP is offline
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Default I agree with flkrsn

The Swift grey back is HARD to find.

On the 225 Baumholtz. I have that "color" variation and IMHO this is not as much a variation as it is a difference on when the card was printed on the run. The cards earliest in the run got more "color" than those later on. This "variation" can be found on many different cards. But teh Baumholtz is one of the most common.

Cheers,
Patrick
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  #42  
Old 01-28-2013, 07:01 AM
flkersn flkersn is offline
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Bill---I have seen the partial black star but do not have one...missing link you think ?

I have heard there are gradations of the House...does this mean it is a printing defect rather than a variation ?


The partial black star may be a "missing link". But, I am not sure how that would work in the printing process.

I believe the House is a printing defect. It looks like the ink was gradually running out, until it disappeared altogether.

Bill

Last edited by flkersn; 01-28-2013 at 07:06 AM.
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  #43  
Old 01-28-2013, 10:50 AM
SMPEP SMPEP is offline
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Default Forget where

I forget who did it ... but someone on this board (? the main board?) posted a message about the partial black star. As I recall, the story was essentially, the black star was noticed, someone went to the printing plate and tried to remove it ... and in the first attempt they only partially removed it.

The partial black star was speculated to be rarer than the regular black star due to the printing production process ... but no one knows for sure.

As for the yellow tiger ... I disagree slightly with the comments to date. I think there are only three variations of the House. There is the regular house (which is very common), a fully yellow tiger (which is the rarest) and a yellow tiger with red tongue (which is pretty rare but not as rare as the full yellow tiger in my opinion).

Cheers,
Patrick

Ps - There are MANY differences that result from print registry errrors (and I think the Feller is only a print regsitry error - I have never seen anyone show me the same "error" card when I ask them what they have - frankly, I don't really believe it's an error - just the lines disappear a bit because the print registry is a bit offset top-to-bottom) and as mentioned above there are many cards that have a richer printing color. 225 Baumholtz is pretty plentiful (and obvious). Others are harder to spot.
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  #44  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:13 AM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
Al Richter
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Default House

Patrick---appreciate the feedback on the House. Do you think the yellow and yellow/red are variations or print deficiencies of varying degrees ? This is not meant to be argumentative, I collect both variations and interesting print defects.

I agree with you on the Feller...and still have not seen a really different Crandall.

I think Republicaninmass posted the partial balck star with his theory on it's relationship to the full black star

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 01-28-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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  #45  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:28 PM
SMPEP SMPEP is offline
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Default My opinion

Hi Al,

My opinion is that the House yellow and yellow/red are both variations. I have seen numerous of both ... and in my opinion ... if there are mutlipe copies of the same exact variation it is legit. If the cards does not have a repeating error I deem those print flaws. (and I collect both too.)

On the Crandall, I think the variation is hard to spot ... but in my opinion it is real (I have one that I consider the variation). Rather than red and orange backgrounds though (the variation there is somewhat subtle in my opinion - although when you hold the two cards next to each other you can see some difference) what I think is more pronounced is the difference in Crandall's face.

Cheers,
Patrick
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  #46  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:21 PM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
Al Richter
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Default Variations versus print defects

Everyone has their own definition of a variation as opposed to a print defect, and in my view no one is wrong or right. I tend to view variations as changes intentionally made to a card, for example the 59 Spahn DOBs or the 59 Trade/Option cards. But I would also include the 52 Mantle, Thompson and Robinson, because while the differences may not have been specifically planned, they were intentionally double printed and that was where the differences originated.

I have the 58 Herrer, the 57 Bakep and the 52 Campos card "variations" but view them all really as recurring print defects. They got early hobby recognition, but even more dramatic recurring print defects exist in virtually every Topps set.

I think the Schieb and Woodling border breaks are just recurring unintentional print defects. Border breaks are abundant in every Topps set.

The House is less clear to me. I currently think of them ( say 3 different) as a transitional print defect, but it is a gray area for me. They are definitely different, but every recurring print defect is as well.

PSA recently recognized a 1961 Ron Fairly with an errant green smudge in the bottom of the baseball on the back as a variation and added it to the PSA master 1961 checklist. I was amazed. I have it, but think it is a minor, uninteresting defect, yet the prices for it have shy rocketed.

The prices for the House, Scheib and Woodling have all gone up since the SCD articles, while some of the other variants in the 52 set mentioned here have as yet no hobby recognition or additional value.

With Bob Lemke retired I guess the PSA registry list becomes the surest way to garner hobby interest, although SCD articles still have some impact.

The value is not what drives me. It is only a hobby for me. I like the pursuit of new finds that folks in places like this point out. And I now have some new variants to search out
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  #47  
Old 01-29-2013, 05:14 PM
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So has anyone ever checked the low number double prints to see if the stitches go both ways on those?
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  #48  
Old 01-29-2013, 08:23 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toppcat View Post
So has anyone ever checked the low number double prints to see if the stitches go both ways on those?
I have, and on all of mine, the stitches go the same direction on all variations of a given card number.

Doug
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  #49  
Old 01-30-2013, 10:18 AM
SMPEP SMPEP is offline
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Default Never seen another stitching variation

I've looked for all series (given the odd numbers for all sheets except for series 2) and never seen any stitching variations except for the three from the sixth series. I once even made an excel sheet that listed which way each stitch was. If anyone wants it, shoot me an email and I'll see if I can find it!

Cheers,
Patrick
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  #50  
Old 01-30-2013, 10:30 AM
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Al Richter
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Default Stitching

Anyone else find Doug and Patrick....kind of scary
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