NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:28 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default Comparison of checklists for T215-1 RED CROSS set vs "PIRATE" set

The RED CROSS (T215-1) set consists of 96 cards. It's essentially comprised of T206 subjects from the 350-only series, 350/460 series,
and 460-only series.....and, one subject from the 150/350 series.

T206 "experts" are quite puzzled that American Lithographic (ALC) included this lone 150/350 series card of Mathewson (white cap) in
the RED CROSS set....and, even more puzzling is why ALC apparently omitted Cobb from their T215 "PIRATE" set.



These cards were issued in 2 series. The 1st series of 48 (or 36) subjects in 1910. The 2nd series of 48 (or 60) subjects in the Spring of 1912.

The T215 cards were printed at ALC. The RED CROSS cards were shipped to the Lorillard plant (Factory #10) in Jersey City (NJ), and inserted
into the Red Cross tobacco products. A large find of Red Cross cards occurred some years back in the Louisiana area. The "Pirate" cards were
shipped to Bristol, England to the W.D. & H.O. Willis Tobacco Co. and inserted in their PIRATE cigarette packs, which were exported to the Far
East.

Some uncertainty exists with respect to this T215-1 RED CROSS list. However, a 96-card "complete" set of the "PIRATE" Tobacco cards, has
been confirmed. By cross-referencing the RED CROSS set and the "PIRATE" set, a close match exists between the fronts of these two White-
Bordered, Brown-Captioned sets (with several exceptions in team identifications).


.


.


RED CROSS..... 96 subjects .................................................. ............... "PIRATE"..... 96 subjects (plus Byrne variation)

Ames (hands above head)............................................. ..........................Ames (hands above head)
Baker............................................. .................................................. ..Baker
Ball (Cleveland)....................................... ..............................................Ball
Bender (no trees)............................................ ......................................Bender
Bridwell (portrait-cap).............................................. ..............................Bridwell (portrait-cap)
M. Brown (Chicago)......................................... ......................................M. Brown (Chicago)
Byrne (St Louis)............................................ ........................................Byrne (St Louis)
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Byrne Pittsburg
Camnitz (arm at side)............................................. ................................Camnitz
Chance (yellow portrait)......................................... ................................Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (trophy).......................................... ...........................................Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)......................................... ....................................... NO PRINT.
Ed Collins (A's)............................................. ..........................................Ed Collins (A's)
Conroy (bat)............................................. ................................................. NO PRINT
Crandall (portrait-cap).............................................. ..............................Crandall (portrait-cap)
Crawford (bat)............................................. .........................................Crawford (bat)
Cree.............................................. .................................................. ...Cree
Davis (A's)............................................. .............................................Davis (A's)
Devore............................................ .................................................. ..Devore
Donlin (bat) Pittsburg .................................................. .........................Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)............................................. ............................................Doolan (bat)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Doolan (fielding)
Dougherty (arm in air) .................................................. ...........................Dougherty (arm in air)
L. Doyle (bat)............................................. ............................................L. Doyle (bat)
L. Doyle (portrait)........................................ ............................................L. Doyle (portrait)
Dubuc............................................. .................................................. ...Dubuc
Elberfeld (fielding)........................................ .........................................Elberfeld (fielding)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Evans
Evers (bat-yellow sky).............................................. ...............................Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ford.............................................. .................................................. ....Ford
Fromme............................................ .................................................. ..Fromme
Griffith (bat) Washington .................................................. .....................Griffith (bat)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Groom
Hartsel Toledo .................................................. .....................................Hartsel
Herzog New York, NL .................................................. ...........................Herzog
Hoblitzel......................................... .................................................. ....Hoblitzell
Hofman............................................ .................................................. ..Hofman
Howard............................................ .................................................. ..Howard
Huggins (portrait) St Louis NL .................................................. ................Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands/mouth)............................................ ................................Huggins (hands/mouth)
Hummel............................................ .................................................. ..Hummel
Jennings (one hand)............................................. ...................................Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)............................................ ...................................Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)........................................ ..........................................Johnson (pitching)
Kelley............................................ .................................................. ......Kelley
Konetchy (glove low).............................................. .................................Konetchy (glove low)
Krause............................................ .................................................. ....Krause
Lajoie (bat)............................................. .................................................. Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)............................................. .............................................Lake (no ball)
Latham............................................ .................................................. ....... NO PRINT
Leifield (bat)............................................. .................................................. Leifield (bat)
Lord.............................................. .................................................. ..........Lord
Magee (bat)............................................. .................................................. Magee (bat)
Marquard (portrait)........................................ .........................................Marquard (portrait)
Marquard (pitching)........................................ ..........................................Marquard (pitching)
Mathewson (white cap).............................................. .................................. NO PRINT
Mathewson (dark cap).............................................. ................................Mathewson (dark cap)
McGinnity......................................... .................................................. ....McGinnity
McGraw (portrait-cap).............................................. ...............................McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove)........................................... ...........................................McGraw (glove)
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)............................................... .......Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Harry McIntyre Chicago Nat'l .................................................. ..................... NO PRINT
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)......................................... .................................Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
NO PRINT .................................................. ...........................................Matty McIntyre Chicago AL
McLean............................................ .................................................. ...McLean
Merkle (throwing)........................................ ...........................................Merkle (throwing)
Meyers............................................ .................................................. ...Meyers
Miller............................................ .................................................. ......Miller
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Mitchell (Cinci)
Mowrey St Louis NL .................................................. ..............................Mowrey
Mullin(bat)....................................... .................................................. ....Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)............................................. ...........................................Murphy (bat)
Murray............................................ .................................................. ...Murray
Oakes St Louis NL .................................................. ...............................Oakes
Oldring (bat)............................................. ...........................................Oldring (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)............................................ ................................O'Leary (hands/knees)
Paskert........................................... .................................................. ..Paskert
Pelty (vertical)........................................ .............................................Pelty (vertical)
Purtell........................................... .................................................. ...Purtell
Quinn............................................. .................................................. ..Quinn
Reulbach (no glove)............................................ ...................................Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)........................................ ..........................................Rucker (throwing)
Schaefer (Washington)...................................... .....................................Schaefer
Schulte (back view)............................................. ..................................Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)........................................... ........................................Sheckard (glove)
Frank Smith Cincinnati .................................................. ........................Frank Smith Cincinnati
Speaker........................................... .................................................. .Speaker
Stahl (glove)........................................... .............................................Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat) St. Louis NL .................................................. ................Steinfeldt (bat)
Street............................................ .................................................. ..Street
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Summers
Sweeney (New York AL)............................................... ..........................Sweeney (New York AL)
Tannehill (Chicago AL)............................................... .............................Tannehill (Chicago)
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Thomas
Tinker (bat)............................................. ............................................Tinker (bat)
Wagner (bat on right)............................................ .................................Wagner (bat on right)
Warhop............................................ .................................................. .Warhop
Wheat............................................. .................................................. ..Wheat
Doc White (pitching)........................................ ........................................... NO PRINT
Willetts.......................................... .................................................. ....Willetts
Wilson............................................ .................................................. ....Wilson
Wiltse (portrait-cap).............................................. .................................Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Wiltse (pitching)........................................ ...........................................Wiltse (pitching)
Cy Young (glove)........................................... ............................................ NO PRINT


TRADES....circa 1909 - Spring 1912 that are reflected on these T215-1 cards.

Bobby Byrne.................from St Louis NL to Pittsburg on Aug 19, 1909
Mike Donlin...................from Boston NL to Pittsburg on February 17, 1912
Clark Griffith.................signed a contract to manage Washington in Oct 1911
Topsy Hartsel...............signed by Toledo (A A) in the Fall of 1911
Buck Herzog.................from Boston NL to New York NL on July 22, 1911
Miller Huggins (port).......from Cinci to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910
Harry McIntyre..............from Brooklyn to Chicago NL on April 13, 1910
Matty McIntyre.............from Detroit to Chicago AL on Jan 12, 1911
Mike Mowrey.................from Cinci to St Louis NL on August 22, 1909
Rebel Oakes..................from Cinci to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910
Frank Smith..................from Boston AL to Cinci on May 11, 1911
Harry Steinfeldt............1912 Spring training tryout with St Louis NL


The RED CROSS checklist is still a work in progress; therefore, I would appreciate any updates to it. Especially, I am looking for more team
changes....that are different from the original T206 captions.

Also, please continue to post your RED CROSS (and "PIRATE") cards here......or, tell us about them. This would especially be appreciated in
trying to get a better understanding of the cards in the RED CROSS set.


TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 11-05-2017 at 09:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:40 PM
Seiklis Seiklis is offline
Jack Vernon
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 387
Default

Good list. From the checklists I have, Harry Krause's T215-1 is the Phil. Athletics and his T215-2 is Cleveland Naps.

Don't have it of course, don't even have a picture of it yet, one of my dream cards. Though I am curious if the list I have is correct on him
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-02-2012, 10:31 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

I appreciate your efforts Ted, but your findings are short of what was actually going on with these sets, or subsets. I encourage you to continue looking into these sets and what may be possible regarding how they were put together. For now you're off the mark.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-02-2012 at 10:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-02-2012, 11:27 PM
camlov2 camlov2 is offline
Brian Horne
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
I appreciate your efforts Ted, but your findings are short of what was actually going on with these sets, or subsets. I encourage you to continue looking into these sets and what may be possible regarding how they were put together. For now you're off the mark.
Can you explain how he is off the mark? Does he have wrong information posted? Is he missing cards, have cards listed that don't exist? Or do you have information that you just don't want to share?

I have no personal experience with this set but enjoy reading threads like this where info is shared. Hope you can build on what is already here.
__________________
Br.ia.n Ho.rn.e
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-03-2012, 05:11 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default Hi Brian

If Mr Cathy didn't post it....he does not like it. It's simply his mentality. He has resorted to this type of criticism several times before.
So, just ignore his remarks.

The "PIRATE" list of 97 cards, I have gleaned from several sources. I think it is very accurate. However, the RED CROSS list needs to
be updated....as the current cataloging of these 96 cards is not completely correct.
Therefore, my reason for posting this thread; besides, being informative.

My research (so far) indicates 10 subjects in the RED CROSS set have team changes from their T206 counterparts. There are more
team changes forthcoming, but they have not yet been confirmed.

Furthermore, the list of subjects in this 96-card set is not completely confirmed; and, may require changes.

Let's hope this proves to be a meaningful exercise.

Best regards,

TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-03-2012, 08:24 AM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by camlov2 View Post
Can you explain how he is off the mark? Does he have wrong information posted? Is he missing cards, have cards listed that don't exist? Or do you have information that you just don't want to share?
Yes, Yes, and Yes are the answers to your first three questions. Regarding your last question, I'm always happy to add whatever I can to the discussion if there is interest in what I have to say. I'll post more information about these sets later.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-03-2012 at 08:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-03-2012, 08:34 AM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,542
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
Yes, Yes, and Yes are the answers to your first three questions. Regarding your last question, I'm always happy to add whatever I can to the discussion if there is interest in what I have to say. I'll post more information about these sets later.
Tim, there is definitely interest in what you have to say. These are two sets that are tough for some of us to get a handle on, so anything you, Ted or anyone else has to add is going to be interesting to us.

I have some questions about what Ted posted, but I'll wait to see what you add.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:41 AM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

This is the T215-1 checklist I have and some additional information for the discussion.

1 Ames New York Nat'l
2 Baker Philadelphia Amer.
3 Ball Cleveland
4 Bender (w/ Trees) Philadelphia Amer.
5 Bender (No Trees) Philadelphia Amer.
6 Bridwell Boston Nat'l
7 Byrne Pittsburgh
8 Camnitz Pittsburgh
9 Chance Chicago Nat'l
10 Chase New York Amer.
11 Cobb Detroit
12 Collins Philadelphia Amer.
13 Conroy Washington
14 Crandall New York Nat'l
15 Crawford Detroit
16 Cree New York Amer.
17 Davis Cleveland
18 Devore New York Nat'l
19 Donlin Pittsburgh
20 Doolan (Batting) Philadelphia Nat'l
21 Doolan (Fielding) Philadelphia Nat'l
22 Dougherty Chicago Amer.
23 Doyle (w/ Bat) New York Nat'l
24 Doyle (Portrait) New York Nat'l
25 Elberfeld Washington
26 Ford New York Amer.
27 Fromme Cincinnati
28 Griffith Washington
29 Hartsel Toledo
30 Hoblitzell Cincinnati
31 Hofman Chicago Nat'l
32 Howard Chicago Nat'l
33 Huggins (Portrait) St. Louis Nat'l
34 Huggins (Hands at Mouth) Cincinnati
35 Hummel Brooklyn
36 Jennings (One Hand) Detroit
37 Jennings (Two Hand) Detroit
38 Johnson Washington
39 Konetchy St. Louis Nat'l
40 Krause Philadelphia Amer.
41 Lajoie Cleveland
42 Lake St. Louis Amer.
43 Latham New York Nat'l
44 Leach Pittsburgh
45 Leifield Pittsburgh
46 Lord Chicago Amer.
47 Magee Philadelphia Nat'l
48 Manning New York Nat'l
49 Marquard (Portrait) New York Nat'l
50 Marquard (Pitching) New York Nat'l
51 Mathewson (Dark Cap) New York Nat'l
52 Mathewson (White Cap) New York Nat'l
53 McGinnity Newark
54 McGraw (Portrait w/ Cap) New York Nat'l
55 McGraw (Glove at Hip) New York Nat'l
56 McIntyre Chicago Nat'l
57 Merkle New York Nat'l
58 Meyers New York Nat'l
59 Miller Pittsburgh
60 Mowery St. Louis Nat'l
61 Murphy Philadelphia Amer.
62 Murray New York Nat'l
63 Oakes St. Louis Nat'l
64 O'Leary Detroit
65 Paskert Philadelphia Nat'l
66 Pelty St. Louis Amer.
67 Quinn New York Amer.
68 Reulbach Chicago Nat'l
69 Rucker Brooklyn
70 Schaefer Washington
71 Schulte Chicago Nat'l
72 Sheckard Chicago Nat'l
73 Smith Cincinnati
74 Smither (sic) Montreal
75 Speaker Boston Amer.
76 Stahl Boston Amer.
77 Steinfeldt St. Louis Nat'l
78 Street (Portrait) New York Amer.
79 Street (Catching) New York Amer.
80 Sweeney New York Amer.
81 Tannehill Chicago Amer.
82 Tinker (Bat on Shoulder) Chicago Nat'l
83 Tinker (Bat off Shoulder) Chicago Nat'l
84 Wagner Boston Amer.
85 Warhop New York Amer.
86 Wheat Brooklyn
87 White Chicago Amer.
88 Willetts Detroit
89 Wilson Pittsburgh
90 Wiltse (Portrait w/ Cap) New York Nat'l
91 Wiltse (Pitching) New York Nat'l
92 Young Boston Nat'l

I didn't check the entire list in the OP yet, but I did notice Chance should be the bat off pose, not yellow portrait.

This is additional player information to add to what is in the OP that is important to dating the set.

Bridwell-Boston Natíl---July 22, 1911 Traded by New York to Boston Natíl
Davis-Cleveland---October 1911 named Cleveland manager
Paskert-Philadelphia Natíl---November 12, 1910 Traded to Philadelphia Natíl
Street-NY Amer---February 17, 1912 Traded to New York from Washington
Young-Boston Natíl---Signed contract with Boston Nat'l Feb 1, 1912 - retired May 24, 1912

Every subjects team designation in the T215-1 set is where they were in the first few months of 1912 with the exception of two. The two are Howard-Chicago Nat'l and Manning-New York Nat'l. Howard did not play for Chicago after 1909 and Manning did not play for New York after 1910.

There are players that have no statistics with their designated team in 1912 but were with them at the beginning of the year.

Conroy-Washington---Retired/Cut prior to the season in March 1912
Dougherty-Chicago Amer---Retired in late February 1912 prior to the season.
Elberfeld-Washington---Retired/Cut prior to the season in March 1912


I'll add more regarding the Pirate set later.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-12-2012 at 04:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:54 AM
teetwoohsix's Avatar
teetwoohsix teetwoohsix is offline
Clayton
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas,Nevada
Posts: 2,461
Default

Great stuff guys.

Tim, I'm always interested in what you have to say; keep posting

I was wondering about Smither (sic) Montreal last night as I was reading this thread and looking at the checklists in Lipset's Volume 3, as I didn't see it on Ted's list.

I'm hesitant to bring these things up, as I don't want to come across as "confrontational". Unfortunately, sometimes my posts read that way when they aren't.

Great thread, love the information !!!

Sincerely, Clayton
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:57 AM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,542
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The RED CROSS (T215-1) set consists of 96 cards. It's essentially comprised of T206 subjects from the 350-only series, 350/460 series,
and 460-only series.....and, one subject from the 150/350 series.

T206 "experts" are quite puzzled that American Lithographic (ALC) included this lone 150/350 series card of Mathewson (white cap) in
the RED CROSS set....and, even more puzzling is why ALC apparently omitted Cobb from their T215 "PIRATE" set.

These cards were issued in 2 series. The 1st series of 48 (or 36) subjects in 1910. The 2nd series of 48 (or 60) subjects in the Spring of 1912.

TED Z
Thanks Ted. One thing that I need clarification on: You list Red Cross and Pirate subjects side-by-side, with 'NO PRINT' indicated for spots where the subjects differ. I know you said '96' was the number printed for each, but does this mean 96 'subjects' , and that the 'No Print' slots were filled with duplicates?

Also, does it imply some similarity in the print process (sheet configuration, etc) between the two?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-03-2012, 10:04 AM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teetwoohsix View Post
I was wondering about Smither (sic) Montreal last night as I was reading this thread and looking at the checklists in Lipset's Volume 3, as I didn't see it on Ted's list.
Smith began the 1912 season with Cincinnati and was sold to Montreal in June.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-03-2012, 10:09 AM
teetwoohsix's Avatar
teetwoohsix teetwoohsix is offline
Clayton
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas,Nevada
Posts: 2,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
Smith began the 1912 season with Cincinnati and was sold to Montreal in June.
Thanks Tim

Sincerely, Clayton
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Here are some key cards that show the differences between the T215-1 RC and Pirate sets.

This group shows subjects that were printed with Red Cross and then later updated for the Pirate set.

Neal Ball
In the RC set his team designation is Cleveland and in the Pirate set itís Boston American. Ball was purchased by Boston from Cleveland June 25, 1912.

Solly Hofman
In the RC set his team designation is Chicago Natíl and in the Pirate set itís Pittsburgh. Hofman was traded to Pittsburgh from Chicago on May 30, 1912.

Harry Krause
In the RC set his team designation is Philadelphia Amer. and in the Pirate set itís Cleveland. Krause was sold from Philadelphia to Cleveland in July 1912.

Lefty Leifield
In the RC set his team designation is Pittsburgh and in the Pirate set itís Chicago Natíl. Leifield was traded from Pittsburgh to Chicago May 30, 1912.

Barney Pelty
In the RC set his team designation is St. Louis Amer. And in the Pirate set itís Washington. Pelty was sold by St. Louis to Washington June 11, 1912.



This group is the opposite of the one above. The Pirate team designations reflect where the subject played prior to where they played on the Red Cross designation.

Harry Lord
In the RC set his team designation is Chicago Amer. and in the Pirate set itís Boston Amer. Lord was traded from Boston to Chicago August 9, 1910.

Topsy Hartsel
In the RC set his team designation is Toledo and in the Pirate set itís Philadelphia Amer. Hartsel played for Philadelphia in 1911 and managed Toledo in 1912.

Harry Steinfeldt
In the RC set his team designation is St. Louis Natíl and in the Pirate set itís Chicago Natíl. Steinfeldt played for Cubs in 1911 and was purchased by St. Paul in June of that year. He was signed by St. Louis in March 1912.

Gabby Street
In the RC set his team designation is NY Natíl and in the Pirate set itís Washington. Street was traded by Washington to New York February 17, 1912.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-03-2012, 11:46 AM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

One other subject that is important to the Pirate set is Bobby Byrne. There are two variations of this card. One with a Pittsburgh team caption and the other with a St. Louis team caption. Byrne was traded from St. Louis to Pittsburgh in August 1909. The early Pirate printing appears to be a reuse of the T206 images exactly as they were. The later Pirate printing appears to have been updated to where players were the second half of 1912.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-03-2012, 01:23 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default Comparison of checklists for T215-1 RED CROSS set vs "PIRATE" set

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
It's my opinion that all of the T215-1's were issued in 1912. A year after the conclusion of the T206 set and after the breakup of the ATC trust.
Hey Tim

You are waffling....a week ago (per above quote), you stated that all the RED CROSS cards were produced in a single printing.

So, what makes you agree with what most of us veteran collectors have always known ? That the evidence clearly indicates that there was a 1910 printing,
followed by a Spring 1912 printing of the T215-1 cards ?

You reminds us of a Massachusetts politician who first voted against a bill, then voted for it


Whatever, it surely is appreciated the team change info that you have provided. It was the reason that motivated me to start this thread.
But, I have a question....have all these team changes been confirmed on actual cards, or are some hearsay ?

Furthermore, it is my understanding that a total of 96 subjects were printed and issued in the RED CROSS set. Your list is missing 4 subjects.
Any of the following are possible candidates........

Evans
Evers
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell
Summers
Thomas


TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 12-03-2012 at 01:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-03-2012, 01:50 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
So, what makes you agree with what most of us veteran collectors have always known ? That the evidence clearly indicates that there was a 1910 printing,
followed by a Spring 1912 printing of the T215-1 cards ?
I don't agree that any of the T215-1's were printed in 1910. I still believe the same thing that's in my quote you referenced. I'm not sure what led you to draw the conclusion that I have changed my opinion, but I haven't.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-03-2012, 01:51 PM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 8,850
Default

I recently won this t215-1 byrne...as I collect this pose of Byrne with different Louisiana brand backs...so what would the difference between this one and the other Pitt printing? So there is no t215-1 St Louis Byrne as Ted suggests?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bbyrne.jpg (48.0 KB, 202 views)

Last edited by ullmandds; 12-03-2012 at 01:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-03-2012, 02:05 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
One other subject that is important to the Pirate set is Bobby Byrne. There are two variations of this card. One with a Pittsburgh team caption and the other with a St. Louis team caption. Byrne was traded from St. Louis to Pittsburgh in August 1909. The early Pirate printing appears to be a reuse of the T206 images exactly as they were. The later Pirate printing appears to have been updated to where players were the second half of 1912.
You clearly mention two series printings here. And, to deny that there were two series printings of the RED CROSS issue is flawed thinking.

I reiterate my question from my previous post...."But, I have a question....have all these team changes been confirmed on actual cards, or are some hearsay ?

I ask you this, because I have seen RED CROSS Bobby Byrne with a St Louis NL caption.

But, your list says Pittsburg....something is not jiving here.


TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-03-2012, 02:14 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
You clearly mention two series printings here. And, to deny that there were two series printings of the RED CROSS issue is flawed thinking.
I'm not denying that there were two printings of T215-1's. I have stated on this board that I believe there were two, both in 1912.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
I reiterate my question from my previous post...."But, I have a question....have all these team changes been confirmed on actual cards, or are some hearsay ?

I ask you this, because I have seen RED CROSS Bobby Byrne with a St Louis NL caption.

But, your list says Pittsburg....something is not jiving here.


TED Z
You can verify the Byrne T215-1 Pittsburgh by looking at post #17 just before yours.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-03-2012, 02:23 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
I recently won this t215-1 byrne...as I collect this pose of Byrne with different Louisiana brand backs...so what would the difference between this one and the other Pitt printing? So there is no t215-1 St Louis Byrne as Ted suggests?
Peter - If a St. Louis Byrne is out there I haven't seen it. I'd admittedly be surprised if there was a St. Louis variation, but anything is possible.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-03-2012, 03:45 PM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 8,850
Default

well I'm kinda hoping there is not a byrne st louis out there too!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-03-2012, 04:08 PM
Mikehealer Mikehealer is offline
MikeHealer
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,703
Default

Hi Ted, I don't believe Evers is in the Red Cross type 1 set. I certainly have never seen or heard of one, but I'm proven wrong on a daily basis. I would love to see a scan if anyone has one. I look for and research his cards from time to time.
Thanks for sharing your information Ted and Tim.

And by the way nice card Pete.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-03-2012, 04:33 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Thanks Ted. One thing that I need clarification on: You list Red Cross and Pirate subjects side-by-side, with 'NO PRINT' indicated for spots where the subjects differ. I know you said '96' was the number printed for each, but does this mean 96 'subjects' , and that the 'No Print' slots were filled with duplicates?

Also, does it imply some similarity in the print process (sheet configuration, etc) between the two?
Scott

I formatted these two lists in parallel in order to facilitate comparing the subjects by simply scanning across the page. I can understand, though, what you are saying
that this may be somewhat confusing.

"96" means subjects....as, the sheet size could be any multiple of 12 cards (i.e., 36 cards, 48 cards, 60 cards, 72 cards, 96 cards, etc.).


TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-03-2012, 04:51 PM
atx840's Avatar
atx840 atx840 is offline
Chris Browne
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,184
Default

Great card Pete!
__________________
T206 gallery
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-03-2012, 05:46 PM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 8,850
Default

thanks guys!

Is there a Byrne in t215-2...does anyone know?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-03-2012, 06:13 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Is there a Byrne in t215-2...does anyone know?
Yes. Pittsburgh.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-03-2012, 06:14 PM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 8,850
Default

thanks Tim...and I believe the t215-Pirate depicts Byrne on st louis.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-03-2012, 06:16 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Actually there are two Pirate variations of Byrne. St. Louis and Pittsburgh.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-03-2012, 07:29 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Chance (yellow portrait)
TED Z
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:03 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Ted Ė I took a look and here is where I see your T215-1 Red Cross checklist and the one I posted donít jibe.

Not on your list/On mine
Bender (w/ Trees)
Doolan (Fielding)
Leach
Manning
Smithier
Street (Portrait/Catching)*
Tinker (Bat On/Off)*

*You have one Street and one Tinker on your list without identifying the pose. Each have two poses in the T215-1 set according to the list I posted.


On your list/Not on mine
M. Brown (Chicago)
Dubuc
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Herzog New York, NL
Kelley
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Mullin (bat)
Oldring (bat)
Purtell
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-04-2012, 09:52 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default

Tim

OK, I was away.
Now, as I have stated in my initial post here, I expected some differences in my RED CROSS list, since it was an old one.
If we assume that your list is a valid representation of the RED CROSS set....it is still missing 4 subjects.
American Lithographic printed and issued 96 subjects for the RED CROSS set.

Given the "PIRATE" set list, any 4 of the following subjects should fill out your list of 92 subjects to bring us to a total of
96 subjects in the RED CROSS set........

M. Brown (Chicago)
Byrne (St Louis NL) .... ?
Dubuc
Evans
Groom
Herzog New York, NL
Kelley
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Matty McIntyre (Chicago AL)
McLean
Mitchell
Mullin (bat)
Oldring (bat)
Purtell
Summers
Thomas

Thank you for sharing your RED CROSS list with us. We still have 4 subjects that have to be confirmed.


TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-04-2012, 10:03 AM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,542
Default

This is great stuff. It is especially cool to see both of you guys (Tim and Ted) sharing your information in this thread and slowly coming to a consensus. Keep it up.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-04-2012, 06:27 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Ted - I have a couple of points to make about your last post and I will separate them to try and avoid any confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
If we assume that your list is a valid representation of the RED CROSS set....it is still missing 4 subjects.
American Lithographic printed and issued 96 subjects for the RED CROSS set.
I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that the checklist for the Red Cross set would be complete at 96 subjects. According to the back of the cards the set was "100 Designs." There is no proof yet that all 100 were or were not printed, but with several previously unknown subjects being discovered in recent years, more are certainly a possibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Given the "PIRATE" set list, any 4 of the following subjects should fill out your list of 92 subjects to bring us to a total of
96 subjects in the RED CROSS set........
In this quote you're drawing conclusions about the Red Cross set based on information we know about the Pirate set. Due to the many differences in the sets and how I think they were printed, I wouldn't assume that one checklist would have anything to do with the other.

Lastly, like the Red Cross set, new confirmations of Pirate cards have been discovered in the not-so-distant past. So for now we can't be certain that the Pirate checklist is complete at 96 or 97.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-04-2012, 08:00 PM
RCMcKenzie's Avatar
RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,271
Default t215-1

The lists that I am familiar with show 90 known examples. All of the ones Tim has up there except for a second Doolan and the Manning. I guess the Doolan and Manning are recent discoveries. I always have assumed the set has 100 designs like it says on the card.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-04-2012, 08:04 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
I guess the Doolan and Manning are recent discoveries.
They were in "The Louisiana Find" from 2010. REA auctioned them in 2011.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-11-2012, 03:04 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default Comparison of checklists for T215-1 RED CROSS set vs "PIRATE" set

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
This is the T215-1 checklist I have and some additional information for the discussion.

32 Howard Chicago Nat'l
33 Huggins (Portrait) St. Louis Nat'l
34 Huggins (Hands at Mouth) St. Louis Nat'l <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ?
35 Hummel Brooklyn

Tim

Huggins (Hands at Mouth) is actually Cincinnati....I have seen this card. Furthermore, a Net54 member that collects T215-1 RED CROSS cards (40% complete set)
has this Huggins (Cinci).

So, is the card you listed a variation, or what ?

I have never seen this Huggins with a St Louis caption. And, the above mentioned Net 54 collector has not either.


TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Tim

Huggins (Hands at Mouth) is actually Cincinnati....I have seen this card. Furthermore, a Net54 member that collects T215-1 RED CROSS cards (40% complete set)
has this Huggins (Cinci).

So, is the card you listed a variation, or what ?

I have never seen this Huggins with a St Louis caption. And, the above mentioned Net 54 collector has not either.


TED Z
It seems out of place for the Huggins team caption to be Cincinnati and goes against anything I have seen, but I guess anything is possible. If your friend owns the card with the Huggins Cincinnati caption, they should be able to answer this definitively for you. Nothing I could post would be more proof than the card itself.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-11-2012 at 03:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-11-2012, 05:07 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
It seems out of place for the Huggins team caption to be Cincinnati and goes against anything I have seen, but I guess anything is possible. If your friend owns the card with the Huggins Cincinnati caption, they should be able to answer this definitively for you. Nothing I could post would be more proof than the card itself.
Tim

I stated that I have seen this card....but, in your usual self-centered attitude, you are obviously dismissing my input. And, I really resent this.

Furthermore, you are questioning the guy who actually owns this card in his T215 collection. He is a long-time, well-known guy on this forum;
and, lately he very seldom posts. As, he doesn't care for the immature confrontations that have transpired on this forum this past year (or so).


I don't find the difference in team identification on the two Huggins' cards at all going against anything I have noticed about the RED CROSS set.
One group of the cards were printed in 1910 and a 2nd series of cards were printed in the Spring of 1912.

But, if you are content to maintain an inaccurate list, that's your business. You claim to welcome new inputs in your data; but, when given you
choose not accept them !

C'est la vie


TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-11-2012, 05:09 PM
RCMcKenzie's Avatar
RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,271
Default T215-2 Huggins port

t215-2hugginsport.jpgt215hugginsb.jpg




Here is the T215-2 HUGGINS PORT I have. I mostly collect only series 2, but have handled 10-12 type 1 cards without seeing a type 1 Huggins. My checklist was the 15th edition scd which does not list team variations. Lipset's encyclopedia has teams, but does not mention the cincy.

I am assuming this is the type one collection listed on the SGC registry, which is an astounding collection of cards. These cards appear so infrequently that they are almost impossible to fully checklist.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Rob - I'm not sure if when you say you haven't seen a Type 1 Huggins you mean the Hands at Mouth pose or both it and the portrait. Here's a link to the portrait in case you haven't seen it.

This cards team designation is St. Louis, the same as all other cards from the issues in question I have seen.

Ted - Nothing about my post was disrespectful to you in anyway. As I said, a Cincinnati variation seems to contradict everything else about the set in my opinion. So starting from that position I think most people would understand why I would like to see a scan. I'd love for this longtime member to post one. Perhaps you could post it for him?
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-11-2012 at 05:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:10 PM
RCMcKenzie's Avatar
RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,271
Default

Tim,

Thanks for the link to the H&S auction. That was a great card. What's funny is that they sent me that catalog and it is here in my office somewhere, but I never looked at it because I was on a collecting hiatus in 2009.

I had not seen the T215-1 Huggins port until now, and I have not seen a T215-1 Huggins HM.


.............

Ted Z,

If you could get a scan from the T215-1 collector, then that would be great. I would like to see it also. If not, thanks for the update anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:28 PM
edhans's Avatar
edhans edhans is offline
Ed Hans
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
Posts: 803
Default re: T215 Huggins

Presented without comment...

Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:31 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Hi Ed,

Thanks for posting that and confirming the team designation. I updated the checklist I posted.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-12-2012 at 04:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:45 PM
edhans's Avatar
edhans edhans is offline
Ed Hans
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
Posts: 803
Default Re: Comparison of checklists for T215-1 RED CROSS set vs "PIRATE" set

My pleasure, Tim. It's pretty rare the I actually have something to add to the scholarship on these boards. Thanks for all your efforts.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:51 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

That's another piece to the puzzle and a great looking card as well.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:57 PM
atx840's Avatar
atx840 atx840 is offline
Chris Browne
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,184
Default

Great card Ed
__________________
T206 gallery
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:17 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
Every subjects team designation in the T215-1 set is where they were in the first few months of 1912 with the exception of two. The two are Howard-Chicago Nat'l and Manning-New York Nat'l. Howard did not play for Chicago after 1909 and Manning did not play for New York after 1910.
The quote is from a post I made earlier in the the thread. It can be amended to add Huggins (Hands At Mouth)-Cincinnati. Huggins was traded by Cincinnati to St. Louis February 3, 1910.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:24 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 7,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edhans View Post
Presented without comment...


Thanks Ed....great looking card, too.

I think we can conclude that this dispute has been settled.


TED Z
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Black Swamp Find? 4815162342 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 241 06-23-2013 05:24 AM
red cross type 1 vs. red cross type 2 Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 10-27-2007 12:21 AM
T207 Red Cross Backs Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 5 02-20-2005 09:43 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:53 AM.


ebay GSB