A Jimmy Spence authentication question.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drc

I posted a snide comment about this thread, then felt is wisest to remove it.

two dots is pretty damned snide.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

How could anyone believe both those (almost identical) "Ruth-signed" napkin pieces are real?

David, they have PSA certs, no one is going to comment on them.

[frankbmd]

Both Babe Ruth napkins were certified on the same day. I wonder how many napkins were in the stack. It could have been a busy day for the "Babe Ruth" authenticating specialist.

[sago]

Originally Posted by travrosty

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Joe-Louis-19...item2a1a7fee70

"The item does not come with the LOA from Spence, but you can verify the item on the their website. "

This is quoted from the ad. The item also doesn't show any paperwork from Spence.

Just posting this for accuracy.

I don't currently have a horse in this race.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by sago

"The item does not come with the LOA from Spence, but you can verify the item on the their website. "

This is quoted from the ad. The item also doesn't show any paperwork from Spence.

Just posting this for accuracy.

I don't currently have a horse in this race.

Thank you, i didnt post the wider view, but here it is as it is shown on the ebay listing.

the spence website confirms this number that is on the sticker.

Certificate Number: B10527
Signer: Joe Louis
Field: Boxing
Description: Signed - Document
Manufacturer: City of Miami Boxing Board
Type: Contestant License
Number Of Signatures: 1
Notes: Dated September 30, 1949

[sago]

Right on. Sorry about that.

[travrosty]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROGERS-HORNS...item35b6d9921e

[travrosty]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BABE-RUTH-TY...item35b590e829

[travrosty]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BABE-RUTH-LO...item3a707fe8b8

[travrosty]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Babe-Ruth-Au...item4cfc8db6b0

[travrosty]

This is the situation everyone has been put in now. Find the real Rabe Ruth in that Christmas Vacation cluster!

[GrayGhost]

Um. we think you have made your point sir.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Um. we think you have made your point sir.

And what was it?

Was every one of those Ruth balls supposed to be fake? Or was the game to guess which ones might be fake?

Amazing how Travis has suddenly become a pre-eminent Babe Ruth expert and can suss out the slightest nuances that other authenticators take years to learn. So for whom is he an errand boy? Why doesn't that person come forward with his opinion himself?

[David Atkatz]

Hey, Steve. Look at those two pencil Ruths on the napkin pieces. Think they're good?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

And what was it?

Was every one of those Ruth balls supposed to be fake? Or was the game to guess which ones might be fake?

Amazing how Travis has suddenly become a pre-eminent Babe Ruth expert and can suss out the slightest nuances that other authenticators take years to learn. So for whom is he an errand boy? Why doesn't that person come forward with his opinion himself?

Why are you all confused, they all have psa and jsa certs, so they are all good, right? I said they were tough and I didn't know and I asked people to ask Ron K. or Hall of Shame if they wanted an opinion on it. I didn't hide that post. Why are you accusing me of being secretive when it's right there in black and white?

How do you know other authenticators have learned anything about ruth over the years? Maybe I have been learning for years? Do you know me?

You seem to know the authenticators and their Ruth skills? Have you sat down with them and had them explain Ruth to you? Why do you know so much about who knows what? Did you question Chris Williams when he commented on how horrible that Cy Young signed baseball was? (after the baseball guy said the ball was not of Young's era.) Why didn't you question his Cy Young authentication skills when he all of the sudden became a Cy Young expert? I'm not ripping on Williams, because if he says he knows Young, He might, I don't care.

After the ball guy said it wasn't manufactured while Young was alive, Chris commented that it was a horrible forgery. Now since he knew it was a forgery, he could have said it was a very clever forgery that would fool most everybody, but he said it was a horrible forgery, which means he was putting his Cy Young authentication skills to use, but I didn't hear you chime in asking how he got to be the pre-eminent Cy Young expert. Why do you have an agenda?

Why can't you play fair and question everybody the same? Why doesn't PSA or JSA EVER come on here to explain themselves, it just seems to be friends or associates that do. Who are you fronting for? Anybody?

Only Spence and Grad can know Babe Ruth's autograph I guess? If I would have hid the certs on these and said they all came from you know who and you know who's auction, they would all be called junk. Everyone knows it. But since they are psa and jsa, don't say anything, keep quiet and make sure to try to question and harangue the guy who is bringing it to people's attention. Typical tactic, it's never about the autographs for those who want to protect the status quo.

go to page three here

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+forged&page=3


didn't this interest you?

psa says this bad babe ruth would fool most. then I show an ad where they tout their autograph grading service showing the same type of Babe Ruth certed by them. Wow, what world experts! They got light years on everyone else.


But please criticize me, it must have been my fault they did that.

[sago]

Regarding OP's thoughts on the Buck Leonard 150 autograph piece, I have some thoughts as well.

It's a limited edition of 1000, but it's not clear if it's a signed edition of 1000.

I would guess that it's a signed edition of 1,000 as the signatures are just too organized. They were probably signed in the same place by each person.

Given that, it was most likely signed at an organized event. Should take about a minute to find a possibility.

http://buckoneil.com/articles/one-la...eball-history/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_Awards_%28NLBM%29

Why would anyone want or need JSA, or anyone else for that matter, to provide an additional "opinion", rather than rely on the "fact" of who and who was not there?

BTW, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Babe-Ruth-Au...item4cfc8db6b0

seems more of a secretarial signature. It's more likely to be an actual game used ball than a signed Ruth.

[canjond]

Here's one I love!



Heritage did the right thing and pulled it.

Ball wasn't made until the 1970s, but somehow signed in1959. Looks like both PSA and JSA missed that.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by canjond

Here's one I love!



Heritage did the right thing and pulled it.

Ball wasn't made until the 1970s, but somehow signed in1959. Looks like both PSA and JSA missed that.

missed it by that much.

you would think they check the ball out first before they even looked at the auto.

but what concerns me just as much is that they thought the auto was good. any auto that looks like that they were willing to pass, and we know its no good as wilson said it is a 70's ball. so back to the drawing board for Cobb, but what do I know, the pre-eminent Cobb opinionators took their shot at it, and struck out I guess. I'm just a lowly boxing guy. Mr. Zipper told me what for.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Hey, Steve. Look at those two pencil Ruths on the napkin pieces. Think they're good?

Yes, please tell us if these are good Ruth auto's on the napkins.

[travrosty]

Another Jimmy Spence authentication question,

what makes this joe louis good?

I did an autograph study on joe louis,


this spence PSA certed piece ? Does anybody see slow, sloppy, thick ink? What did Spence see?

c'mon Jim, let's see those exemplars. People can ask Morales for his exemplars, let's see Spence's. Let's get both sides.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/320865513289...84.m1438.l2649

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

How could anyone believe both those (almost identical) "Ruth-signed" napkin pieces are real?

David, those napkins are cert number H47862 and H47863 on the psa site.


certs number H47861 and H47864 are the following two babe ruth signatures, certed on the same day, almost certainly submitted by the same person as they are just one number before and one after the two napkins.

What does everybody think? Some guy got 4 Ruth's certed in a row.

http://www.psacard.com/verification/...sttimeout=9999

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Hey, Steve. Look at those two pencil Ruths on the napkin pieces. Think they're good?

I don't provide an opinion unless I am confident in it. I never claimed to be a Ruth expert.

Perhaps whoever is directing Travis can provide some tips and insights as to why the signatures in question are suspect and then Travis can copy and paste the info here. I'm always willing to learn.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I don't provide an opinion unless I am confident in it. I never claimed to be a Ruth expert.

Perhaps whoever is directing Travis can provide some tips and insights as to why the signatures in question are suspect and then Travis can copy and paste the info here. I'm always willing to learn.

I post my own stuff and at my own direction, but you can feel free to report back to psa and jsa.

[travrosty]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

Another winner Ali from the world experts. They are so good at their job I am just in awe on a daily basis.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

Another winner Ali from the world experts. They are so good at their job I am just in awe on a daily basis.

But Travis can never criticize Chris Morales for certing in the hundreds (maybe thousands) the below Muhammad Ali.

ali1.jpg

Ali2.jpg

[earlywynnfan]

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=11626#more-11626

This one must be Travis' fault, too. Or maybe Peter Nash's. Or maybe it's mine!

All I know is, we can't blame PSA for this.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[earlywynnfan]

By the way, just in case anyone actually cares about the item that started this all. There were no huge auto signings for Negro Leaguers, other than a couple reunions. NL collectors will recognize this piece as one that rode around in the back of the van belonging to a midwest man who went to these players' houses to do signings. No COA needed.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=11626#more-11626

This one must be Travis' fault, too. Or maybe Peter Nash's. Or maybe it's mine!

All I know is, we can't blame PSA for this.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

It will be my fault or Peter's or someones. Anyones but PSA's. What's 1300 dollars between friends anyway?

People will come and spin their wheel of excuses and come up with one of the following.


They are the best we got.

They get it right the majority of the time.

You are just cherry picking.

They are generally accepted in the hobby.

They increase the value of your autograph. (yeah, from zero to 1300 dollars.)

-------------------


When is enough enough?

I will ask the same question I have asked after the Honus Wagner disappearing autograph story. Is THIS enough?

I await the obligatory deflecting of the issue at hand by showing someone elses non sequitor authentication that has nothing to do with it.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

When is enough enough?

I will ask the same question I have asked after the Honus Wagner disappearing autograph story. Is THIS enough?

Enough for what? What should we do?

Wayne

[David Atkatz]

Stop blindly relying on their "expertise," perhaps?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Stop blindly relying on their "expertise," perhaps?

I will say what I said in my "So what is an autograph collector supposed to do?" thread. I have a number of PSA/DNA and JSA authenticated autos in my HOF autograph collection, photos of which can be found in the link in my signature. Not all of the autos are authenticated, and not all of those those that are authenticated are shown to be such from the scan. But I believe all of them to be authentic. I would welcome (really rather appreciate, actually) if any- and everyone looked through them and pointed any out that they thought to be inauthentic.

Having said that, it is damn hard to avoid certed autographs on the high-end side of this hobby. The reputable dealers that have been listed here are usually out of my price range. Auctions it is! If they are not using those certs, all the better for me I guess.

Further, I do not want to "break the slabs and throw them away," because they do actually add value at the present, and I can do that at any time (when and if they face a GAI-like downfall).

I do know which LOAs I will stay away from entirely. PSA/DNA and JSA are not among them.

Wayne Walker

[tinkereversandme]

There is no way that anyone took the time to look at all 150 autographs and determine that every single autograph is legitimate, but this would fall into the category of belief, like the JSA Gene Tenace debacle, that it is "assumed" that nobody would forge any of these names as most fall under the category of being "rather common". They did, from what I understand, many signings, but doubt that all 150 were in the room. What is the authenticator going to say? The Mahlon Duckett doesn't look right and 149 are good?

I enjoy threads like this and I'm a big fan of thetruthisoutthere. Well done on the Mueller screen grabs. I always enjoy when "experts" look stupid. I just wish it would result in a penalty of some sort.

I also enjoy catfights within the boards.

Regards,

Larry