Baby Got "Backs" T206

[wonkaticket]

Please forgive the Sir-Mix-A-Lot reference just thought I would share this now that I finally feel the end is close at hand for this project. Figured some of the T206 guys and gals would enjoy the pics, so I created an public album.

One could look at this two ways fully done or if you feel Cobb brand is a rightful T206 then one away from done.

Without stirring up that ol’chestnut I feel Cobb is not a T206 but since Burdick did set him up as one until we can have the smoking gun I guess he stays as one. I still want to try to add one to my collection not so much as a T206 but because it’s such a cool card. But who knows if I’m ever lucky enough to get one perhaps the day he’s in my hand he becomes a T206 no questions asked. LOL

I would love to get your views on this.

Do you folks consider non-issued backs such as “Blank” & “Brown” Old Mill Southern backs you would consider needed or because they were most likely not issued not really needed?

I’ve also added some oddballs into my folder but they are not really included in my list run just neat backs if you can find em.

I do find it odd that SGC on the Reg. lists “Blank” as a needed and check listed back but no “Brown” Old Mill Southern seems odd to count one hand cut card and not another. Also they list no Cobb brand either. At this point I think it’s safe to add the “Apple Green” Sovereign thoughts?

So where do you all draw the line? All the colors and variations, or just the brands and leave the colors for the nut jobs.

Cheers,

John

P.S. There are a few I would love to upgrade if I could mainly the Drum anubody have a VGEX-EX Drum they would consider parting with PM me.

[teetwoohsix]

My oh my, that is a beautiful site

Thanks for posting that John, and I'm glad to see you're breathing again

As much as I would love to have a Brown OM or Brown Lenox,,I would think to represent all backs the Blacks would be just fine for me...$$ says so.

As far as a blank back, would also love to have one, but don't feel it's mandatory because it doesn't have a cig ad on the back.......but if you can get one grab it for sure. I love the blank backs (where are you Johnny? )...

That is an awesome display- it's amazing !!! Nice job on that !!!

Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back....... would look so sweet in your collection, but I'd say you've accomplished the back run at this point!!!!!

Sincerely, Clayton

[wonkaticket]

Thanks Clayton, I'm making tweeks to the rest of the site and will make more sections public later just thought I would share this part for now early.

Also thanks fo rthe kind words on the run, I have much higher graded examples of many of those backs but I really took time to oick the best ones for color, centering and how clean they were all around. I agree done but you never know always more upgrades to be found.

Cheers,

John

[Mikehealer]

That has to be one of the better conditioned back runs out there. Nice job and thanks for sharing the scans. I enjoy looking at other collectors collections.

[mrvster]

BABY GOT BACKS!!

John,

HOLY CRAP!

That is Freakn' AWESOME!!! you blow me away when you post your collection...what a super sweet display awhat an accomplishment, just amazing!!!!!!KUDOS my man!

Here I am Clayton....great post......

IMO- all factory cut dispersed cards should be included in this run, pre-production/hand cut/not dispersed cards i feel shouldn't be included(brown old mill, blank, Ty,overprint bar)......Brown Lenox is factory cut and although nearly impossible, it was inserted so it should be included....


there should be a "subset" chase back which included the blank, brown om, Ty, etc....anything not factory inserted.....

I would like to also vote to include error backs!!!!!DOES THIS BLOW ANYONE AWAY???

as a subset.......

special subset:
upside down, upside down2back, upside down 4 back, split back, etc...etc..

these two catagories would be neat

Just my 2 cents in the land of misfit toys....John, love your posts

Peace

Johhny

[Rob D.]

Great idea to scan those cards so you'll have a record of them.

[Mrc32]

Nice run. I think the Carolina Brights back is the best design for sure.

[Abravefan11]

John - Congratulations on putting together such an impressive run.

The Blank Back and Old Mill - Brown backs are both printers scrap and never issued in a pack. For this reason I can understand why some wouldn't consider these backs necessary for a complete back run. I personally feel like they've reached a level of acceptance within the T206 collecting community that I would want to own an example of each if I were going to complete a back run. If SGC is going to list a Blank Back on their registry then Old Mill - Brown should be listed as well. Either include or exclude both.

Sovereign - Apple Green should definitely be added as well. The color change from forest green to apple green was a conscious decision made during the printing process. It's no different than the color change on the Hindu backs except the Sovereign color difference wasn't as drastic and didn't have as much time pass between changes. But the two colors were printed during two different times in production on two different groups of subjects.

I'm 99% sure the Cobb/Cobb was not part of the issue that most of us call T206. It's just my opinion based on everything I know at this time about the subject but others will and do feel differently and that's OK.

[Leon]

Congrats John. As of this moment (and I reserve the right to change my mind) I don't think the Ty Cobb back is part of T206. Even though I have been a staunch supporter of Burdick's writings, the more I study him, the more I know HE KNEW there were mistakes and wanted help correcting them. I think I could go with a type 1 set of backs that has all that were inserted into packs/containers and then a type 2 back set including the anomalies. The Type 2 being the master set but not necessary to consider the subset complete. As I said, I could change my mind but those are my current thoughts. Great looking backs you have there!!

[e107collector]

John,

That is a great accomplishment. They look very impressive when they are all in one photo.

Why not add the Ty Cobb back. That way there will be no doubt that you have completed the entire set of backs.

Congrats again,
Tony

[chaddurbin]

as hotly debated and disputed as it is...the cobb/cobb would be a great feather to this tremendous backs run (blank/brown OM is a given).

also, someone verify this asap before wonka sells it off to start another "challenge".

[barrysloate]

Great run John. And now I know why the brown Lenox sold for such an ungodly price- it was the last one you needed.

What about the Old Mill overprint back? Are any of them real, or are they now all considered fake?

And while I also feel the Cobb back is not needed for the run...it still wouldn't look bad if it were included.

[usernamealreadytaken]

A "Coupon" (MILD) Cigarettes back sure would look nice in that empty slot...

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

What about the Old Mill overprint back? Are any of them real, or are they now all considered fake?

Most Old Mill - Brown examples have a clean back and didn't receive any other overprints. A few surviving examples have the Factory 649 overprint and Leon's is an Old Mill - Brown that was overprinted with several other brands.

[DixieBaseball]

John - Beautiful Display of some real toughies ! Thanks for sharing and Congrats !!

[dstraate]

Coolest part of that project is the patience it must have taken. Managing that project with everything else that takes a bite out of the budget. Cool run.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Tim. So to understand, are you saying that none of the OM with the single or double overprint bars are any good? I know bad ones have come into the hobby, but thought there were a few good ones too.

[Abravefan11]

There are a few good ones that have a red bar, the same used to overprint the Sweet Caporal 150 No 649. The fakes were a black bar.

[ullmandds]

That's awesome John...but I gotta agree...as far as you come...you'll need a red strike OM...and eventually a cobb/cobb just for completeness...and also a t215-I and a coupon Type I to leave absolutely no doubt it is complete!

[E93]

John,
That is an amazing run! Thanks for sharing it. Of course Ty Cobb IS a T206. Of course one can make an argument for not needing brown Old Mill because it was printer scrap. Since I don't have one yet, I have tried to convince myself it is unnecessary. But deep down I want one.
JimB

[Ease]

Terrific cards John, an outstanding group.

[oldjudge]

John-Great group, congratulations.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Very nice !! Outstanding ! Good to see you saved a space for the Ty Cobb back which is needed for compeltion. My reasoning is that if the Ty Cobb brand of tobacco was advertised in Grand forks, N.D. then it was more than regional and if not a T206 what is it ? Again congrats on a back run that is ' so fresh and so clean'

[sbfinley]

Awesome collection John. The eye appeal of those cards is amazing. Out of curiosity, if the t213's are ever combined with the t206s (as some here strongly believe) how many backs will that add to the list?

Here is the only t213 I own



Congrats John on a great accomplishment.

[Matthew H]

Thanks for sharing the site John. It's really fun to look at.

As far as the Cobb back, my vote is that you have to fill that last hole with something...

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Awesome collection John. The eye appeal of those cards is amazing. Out of curiosity, if the t213's are ever combined with the t206s (as some here strongly believe) how many backs will that add to the list?

Here is the only t213 I own



Congrats John on a great accomplishment.

Steven - The Type 1 (1910) Coupon would be the only one to consider... Type 2 and 3 were from 1914 and 1919 respectively...

[tedzan]

DITTO....kiddo....to what you said, Johnny

In a previous thread (Jan 2009) we discussed this subject at length which included evidence referring to this card in the Spring of 1910......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...2Fty+cobb+back

Check-out the newspaper clippings from the "Macon Weekly Telegraph" paper in Georgia which refer to the availability of this card in March of 1910.


In my opinion, it is a "T206". The "glossy" argument is moot, as I have seen (and held in my hand) both glossy and non-glossy versions of this card....
prior to these cards being graded.


TED Z

[rp12367]

Amazing... great run John, I say no to the Cobb back, but it would be nice to fill that slot with something...

[wonkaticket]

Barry,

To answer your question on the “overprints” the two that have 649 overprints in red are real scraps one of a kinds if you will.

I view them as printer scraps with another factory’s markings upside down on the back not unlike Leon’s really cool brown Old Mill with many overprints. To me I draw the line on them like I do upside down backs, miscuts etc. a neat anomaly but not so much a separate back.

Quite simply my thought is that for whatever reason a sheet or sheets of these Old Mill southern cards were printed in “Brown” vs. the normal “Black”. At some point in their lives the sheet was used from the printing room floor and was used as a test sheet and received the markings from Sweet Caporal 649 Bar Overprint. In Leon’s cards case it got a few other brands applied as well and reverse wet sheet of Young lucky SOB.

As for normal “Brown” Old Mill’s at some point these cards were hand cut from the sheet and taken home or who knows perhaps stuck in packs nobody will never know for sure. To date no known factory cut “Brown” Old Mill card has surfaced. Brown Old Mills have only been found on Southern League “Brown” Hindu players to date, and most likely are not found on any Texas league players. All the confirmed “Brown” OM's are also found with “Brown” Hindu backs as well.

What is clear is for whatever reason the printers caught the mistake and clearly wanted this ad back printed in “Black” not “Brown” hence why there are so few examples floating today.

I would guess to say that there around less than 15 or so “Brown” Old Mills floating publicly today. Most are very rough cut or not to even there are about 4 really nice examples known in which the hand cut is straighter and are the backs are super clean.

Now there could easily be more examples locked away in collections that have yet to surface or the owners have simply failed to realize they are “Brown” and special.

Even grading companies have missed these cards, they catch the trimming but fail to see the “Brown” the last Goodwin card is a prime example of that.

As for the bogus Old Mill OP’s in black created by T206musuem owner Patrick Chan here is the article I put together for the FBI showing what is wrong with the cards for folks who may have missed that little drama.

http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/fraud...milloverprints

Thanks for all the kind words guys.

Jim B I know you need a “Brown” Old Mill and I may need Cobb so here’s the plan we share each other’s Cobb and “Brown” Old Mill I get every other weekend with them that way on any given Sunday we are both fully done.

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Thanks John, and I see your point. Again, that's a really nice gallery of backs.

[Jaybird]

fantastic. Thanks for sharing.

[E93]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Barry,


Jim B I know you need a “Brown” Old Mill and I may need Cobb so here’s the plan we share each other’s Cobb and “Brown” Old Mill I get every other weekend with them that way on any given Sunday we are both fully done.

Cheers,

John

Sounds like we've got a deal. Congrats again on putting together such an amazing collection.
JimB

[Leon]

Originally Posted by E93

Sounds like we've got a deal.
JimB

There is still the question of supervised or unsupervised visits...and the issue of child support. I think we have enough lawyers on the board to draw up some papers to take care of these issues and we can get this over and done with.....

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

My reasoning is that if the Ty Cobb brand of tobacco was advertised in Grand forks, N.D. then it was more than regional and if not a T206 what is it ?

Hi Johnny - I just want to clarify something regarding your post. The Cobb brand of tobacco was not advertised outside of the state of Georgia. What was printed in the Grand Forks paper and other papers in Arizona and California was a brief story about Cobb having a tobacco named for him, not an advertisement.




The only actual advertisements were run in Georgia newspapers. The Macon Telegraph ran small one line advertisements like the following beginning February 8th and ran off and on for a month.




The only picture advertisement was run in the Augusta Chronicle for four consecutive weeks. Feb 20, 27, Mar 6, 13.

[wonkaticket]

Wow, Tim amazing info thanks for sharing.

Cheers,

John

[mrvster]

hey guys

One more stab-

all factory cut/issued in packs should be on the master list:

brown lenox, lenox, drum , hindu , piedy's, piedy 42's sov(green and apple) , sweet cap, even brown lenox etc etc....

basically anything "inserted" into the accepted distribution methods, ie packs of pied, american beauty, etc. etc.....


SOME ERROR BACKS were inserted into packs(4 back/2 back/sheet numbers/ miscuts) etc, just a printer not paying attention....but these are "anomalies" and should be catagorized in a special "subset" like Leon also resonated, but included as a subset of regular issued backs(cards that where actually inserted into packs and purchased)...


another subset:

any "pre-production cards" NOT OFFICIALLY INSERTED INTO PACKS...imo brown om were definitely NOT inserted into packs, nor were blank backs, yellow browns, red overprint bars, real proofs with cross hatches, Leons overprint back, anything that can be differentiated as "HAND CUT" were taken either pre/post production not officially issued...
hence....a third "back subset"


TY COBB-


lets put this to rest......a totally different card...ALTHOUGH ULTRA RARE , NOT A T206....should NOT be included...





1) MASTER LIST(brown lenox, bl 460, uzit, drum, lenox black, hindu red, broadleaf 350, carolina b, hindu brown , piedy 42, cycle 460, ab 350 no frame, sov 460, ab 460, tolstoi then follow Tim, Jim, or Johns scarcity lists...17 down....

2) subset anomaly / miscuts / (factory issued)????POSSIBLE SUBSET


3) Any scraps(pre production/ handcut/ not issued via normal distribution methods)=

brown om

yellow browns

printers proofs

freaks

ect







THIS IS ONLY ONE MAN'S OPINION


Respectfully submitted and open to debate,


JOHN VANDERBECK

[wonkaticket]

Johnny,

I agree with you for the most part however with anomalies it would be an impossible list and the set would never end sort of like OJ a new one would be added every time almost. It’s just they are anomaly’s hence nor rhyme or reason or consistency.

The reason I count Brown Old Mill is with the exceptions of Leon’s and the two know legit over prints there is a rhyme and reason to “Brown” Old Mill Southern League cards. They are found on a consistent series of players and with a degree of consistency in the way they look and feel much like blank backs.

The others like I have in my set miscuts, mistrikes, printers freaks, factory sheet numbers etc and there are few others out there that folks aren’t aware of are just too hard to define IMO. How would one define them “Miscut Piedmont 60/40”, “Miscut Sweet Caporal 10/90” it’s just way to open to interpretation and the checklist could be infinite.

I could go for this type of list…..though…


T206 Basic Back Set:

• All Piedmonts
• All Sweet Caps
• All Sovereign
• All American Beauty’s
• All Cycles
• All Broadleaf’s
• All Hindu’s
• Old Mill Southern (Black)
• Old Mill
• Lenox
• Lenox (Brown)
• Polar Bear
• Tolstoi
• Uzit
• El Principe De Gales
• Drum
• Carolina Brights


T206 Master Back Set:

• All Piedmonts
• All Sweet Caps
• All Sovereign
• All American Beauty’s
• All Cycles
• All Broadleaf’s
• All Hindu’s
• Blank Back
• Old Mill Southern (Black)
• Old Mill Southern (Brown)
• Old Mill
• Lenox
• Lenox (Brown)
• Polar Bear
• Tolstoi
• Uzit
• El Principe De Gales
• Drum
• Carolina Brights

One could potentially add miscuts and oddities to his or her back sets as icing on the cake sort of how I see it.

But cool topic and I’m always open to new ways of looking at this set.

For arguments sake I left Ty Cobb off I leave that up to you guys.

Cheers,

John

[Abravefan11]

NM

[E93]

I might add that a controlling share (66.7%) of F.R. Penn Tobacco Co. in the form of common stock was purchased by ATC in 1904 and remained in ATC control until its dissolution in 1911, but covering the time period when the Ty Cobb brand card was issued. Thus, like all other T206s, the Ty Cobb brand card was issued in the T206 time period (1910 according to the date of ads and articles about it) by ATC as a giveaway to help advertise and stimulate sales of one of its tobacco brands.
JimB

[wonkaticket]

Very cool Jim, was not aware of that neat.

[mrvster]

John,

You have a great point! (about the anomalies, i'm just biased)!!

definitely something of a "fringe" type thing.....just no boundaries, they would have to be basic generalities(ie just split back, crop mark, sheet #, upside down, ), more unique collector(like you and me)......

i love the way you split the master set, thats a great way to look at it....and John, thanks for leaving off Cobb

Brown om are almost like an enigma to themselves, and i think could go either way....i have been more of the freak collector, Craig, Tim, Art, Dan, Jim, and so many others are fine tuned on the scarcity, i wish i just bought more back in the day, im kinda out....but scanning ebay for umpteen hours and auctions just some observations...

John,

I LOVE THIS POST!!

Peace

Johnny

[tedzan]

........... Factory 33 - 4th Dist. of N.C. ............


Factory #33 was located in Reidsville, North Carolina (F. R. Penn Tobacco Co.)



And, since some of us on this forum strongly feel that this Ty Cobb card should be classified as a T206, then it follows that the 68 cards
in the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set should also be classified as T206's. The cards associated with both of these Tobacco brands fall under
the T206 rubric.






Note the quotation marks surrounding both the TY COBB and the COUPON brands. This is indicates that these two brands were brand new
American Tobacco Co. products in the Spring of 1910 and that their Trademark's were pending.

Some here will agree with these opinions, and others will differ.....and, that's fine.


TED Z

[caramelcard]

For you guys who collect shades of different back colors like sovereign's light green...there's two different distinct shades of Piedmont fact. 42. Collect those too?

[mrvster]

Robert,

GREAT POINT

[cfc1909]

The Sovereign Apple Green is only found on the 350-460 subjects, therefore a separate back. I have studied along with others and have not yet found that the different shades of Piedmont 42 come on certain subjects but do have examples of 2 different shades in my collection.

At this time I don't believe there are 2 colors of Piedmont 42 but just different degrees of ink applied.


edit-John-great back set and I feel fortunate to have viewed it in person.

[wonkaticket]

"For you guys who collect shades of different back colors like sovereign's light green...there's two different distinct shades of Piedmont fact. 42. Collect those too?"

I don’t think as of yet I would call these two color distinct color variations in regards to Piedmont Fact.42. In regards to Sovereign there is a distinct pattern that the “Apple” green shows up on and only those cards…but just in case….guilty as charged.

[Abravefan11]

Somebody should do a survey.

[cfc1909]

I just want to add that you probably are right about the Piedmont 42s. -I-we- just haven't figured it out yet. It does appear to be two colors.

[Blunder19]

I guess the question would be which is rarer.. the lighter blue or the darker blue.. I would guess the darker.. all pied 42's I have seen have been lighter..

Jamie

[caramelcard]

Hi Jim,

Wouldn't both the lighter shades of Sovereigns and Piedmonts be found with certain groups of players because those players were on the same sheets where the ink was applied lighter? Kind of like T210-3 "orange" borders. The orange color was not purposeful. I won't pretend to be an expert on the printing process, but I've always assumed it was more of a quality control issue. Been wrong before though.

Rob